Is Paul's last trump in 1 Cor 15:52 the same as trump in Matt 24:31 and 7th trump in Reve 11?

Douggg said:

Keras, I did not add to the scriptures. I copied and pasted from the KJV. Perhaps because you use another translation - you may not be familiar with the text of the KJV.



Them of the prior times to the great tribulation, who had been martyred down through the centuries - are there in heaven, but not as that group in the fifth seal, but as part of the rapture/resurrected saints which takes place before the shattering of "peace and safety", beginning the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5:1-11.
Again, the text of Revelation 20:4-6 do not say anything about the martyres great tribulation souls being brought back with Jesus.

Jesus will have already returned, with his armies of heaven, and the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire; and Satan bound in chains and cast into the bottomless.

Them in Revelation 20:4-6, their souls are gathered from heaven, for the first resurrection, by the angels.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1Thessalonians4:15-18 indicates that the dead in Christ (Christians who had died up to that point) will be resurrected; and the living translated, and meet Jesus in the air, to be with him forever.

In 1Thessalonians5:1-11, the text indicates that the rapture/resurrection must take place before the shattering of "peace and safety" the beginning of the Day of Lord.

As far as souls ago, a person is born again once they believe upon Jesus for their salvation.

Furthermore,
Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

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Them of the prior times to the great tribulation, who had been martyred down through the centuries - are there in heaven, but not as that group in the fifth seal, but as part of the rapture/resurrected saints which takes place before the shattering of "peace and safety", beginning the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5:1-11.
Again, the text of Revelation 20:4-6 do not say anything about the martyres great tribulation souls being brought back with Jesus.
Sorry, Douggg, but you are mistaken here. The souls under the altar are most certainly church age martyrs. Seals one through 5 are ALL church age timing. Again your theory fails because you don't trust John's chronology.

The church is right now, and has been since the early church, waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr of the church age.

Have you not noticed that the very next event is the start of the Day of the Lord and that is the first event John mentions that is FUTURE to us today. Paul's rapture will be the first event of the Day of the Lord. Paul's "Sudden destruction" will be that earthquake at the 6th seal - caused when God brings together the particles of millions upon millions of the bodies of the saints who have passed. The rapture, pretrib, will be the trigger for the start of the Day. It will be church age - and in the next instant Day of the Lord. You really must learn to trust John's chronology as written.

iamlamad said:

You only imagine you know what God has planned. You stand pretty much alone in your belief: I have never heard it before.

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This is the sad thing; people have never been taught what the Bible says God actually will do for His people. All as plainly Written in the Bible.
However, this is the way God wants it to be. When the end times events commence, most people will be shocked and terrified. Only after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, will understanding be given.
Isaiah 29:9-12....For you the whole vision is nothing but Words in a sealed book.
Isaiah 29:24....then; the confused will gain understanding.....
Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; for the Lord comes to save you in [after] His wrath. THEN the eyes will be opened and the ears unstopped.

iamlamad said:

Do you really think the God we serve is the kind of God that would beat up His bride, cause her to be beheaded, before the marriage ceremony? You amaze me.

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Explain then, why has God allowed His people to be tortured and killed, all thru the ages. Imagine Stephen being killed by stones thrown at him. Imagine families with young children being torn apart in the lions ring.
Are you and the faithful believers of today any different from them?
Why should they have been killed for their faith and as is still happening now, and you be exempt?

It is your fanciful belief of avoiding the testing times ahead for all of us, that is amazing. Not to mention; totally unscriptural and false.
The end times cannot and will not happen as you fondly imagine. It is time for all to really search the scriptures and believe the truth of what the Lord says will happen.

Douggg said:

Them in Revelation 20:4-6, their souls are gathered from heaven, for the first resurrection, by the angels.

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I showed you that Jesus will bring the souls of the Trib martyrs with Him. 2 Thess 4:14
The gathering of Mathew 24:30-31, is of alive people; mostly those people who were taken to the place of safety, as Revelation 12:14 says.

Douggg said:

As far as souls ago, a person is born again once they believe upon Jesus for their salvation.

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You conflate two different things, This is one reason it is hard for anyone to discuss issues with you.
Salvation is our promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, to come after the Millennium.

Douggg said:

In 1Thessalonians5:1-11, the text indicates that the rapture/resurrection must take place before the shattering of "peace and safety" the beginning of the Day of Lord.

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Paul is saying nothing of the sort! Your imagination runs riot.
That prophecy of Paul's, is an exhortation for us to be aware of what the Lord will do. Seems that you and many others are in the dark.

keras said:

I showed you that Jesus will bring the souls of the Trib martyrs with Him. 2 Thess 4:14

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What you stated was your belief, not what is in the text. You are misinterpreting and misapplying 1Thesslanians4:14-18.

keras said:

You conflate two different things, This is one reason it is hard for anyone to discuss issues with you.
Salvation is our promise of Eternal life, John 3:16, to come after the Millennium.

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Here is what is in the text regarding the rapture/resurrection...

1Thessalonians5:9-11

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Salvation is has two parts. (1) Redemption of the soul, i.e. being born again. And (2) redemption of the body, into eternal life incorruptible bodies. Which that redemption is in the 1Thessalonians4:14-18, rapture/resurrection.

Luek 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, Douggg, but you are mistaken here. The souls under the altar are most certainly church age martyrs. Seals one through 5 are ALL church age timing. Again your theory fails because you don't trust John's chronology.

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The seal cover the 7 years, the 70th week. You have no 70th week in your interpretation of Revelation.

keras said:

This is the sad thing; people have never been taught what the Bible says God actually will do for His people. All as plainly Written in the Bible.
However, this is the way God wants it to be. When the end times events commence, most people will be shocked and terrified. Only after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, will understanding be given.
Isaiah 29:9-12....For you the whole vision is nothing but Words in a sealed book.
Isaiah 29:24....then; the confused will gain understanding.....
Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; for the Lord comes to save you in [after] His wrath. THEN the eyes will be opened and the ears unstopped.

Explain then, why has God allowed His people to be tortured and killed, all thru the ages. Imagine Stephen being killed by stones thrown at him. Imagine families with young children being torn apart in the lions ring.
Are you and the faithful believers of today any different from them?
Why should they have been killed for their faith and as is still happening now, and you be exempt?

It is your fanciful belief of avoiding the testing times ahead for all of us, that is amazing. Not to mention; totally unscriptural and false.
The end times cannot and will not happen as you fondly imagine. It is time for all to really search the scriptures and believe the truth of what the Lord says will happen.

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I disagree. People ARE taught. The difference is, what YOU think the verses say, vs what most of the church world thinks they say, are two different things.

Explain then, why has God allowed His people to be tortured and killed, all thru the ages. Explain what God could do? Satan legally possess the world. God can intervene ONLY when people pray in faith. He cannot go against His own principles. He GAVE authority and dominion over to Adam, and Adam gave it to the devil. So God LOST the dominion over earth.

Imagine Stephen being killed by stones thrown at him. Imagine families with young children being torn apart in the lions ring. These things have happened all through the church age. It is what Jesus said, the world hated Him, so the world will hate His people. This has nothing to do with the end times. The rapture will only happen ONCE for the church. God's plan was NOT to take every human to heaven the moment they were born again. We are left here to witness. Take careful note, NONE of this was God's wrath on earth: He is NOT angry with His church! All these things are Satan's doing.

Are you and the faithful believers of today any different from them? We are no different: what IS different is the time. We are the terminal generation. But soon God's wrath will be poured out. His plan is to take us out before His wrath. (He has no desire to beat up His brided.)

Why should they have been killed for their faith and as is still happening now, and you be exempt? We are NOT exempt from tribulation. No one has said we are. But back then was NOT God's wrath - but soon in the future WILL BE God's wrath. Christians in Muslim nations have not been exempt! (if there are any left!)

It is your fanciful belief of avoiding the testing times ahead for all of us, that is amazing NOT! No one is avoiding testing. What we ARE avoiding is His wrath. NO ONE as of yet has gone trough His wrath. That is reserved for all those left behind when Jesus comes for His church. It is sad, because the 70th week is for the JEWS, not for the church.

I was just reading today how Hank Hanegraaff joined the Eastern Orthodox church. From what I read, I would guess very few in that church are born again or have even read the verses about being born again. There are millions in the world today who call themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. God cannot take them out, because God cannot allow ANY sin into heaven. They will be forces to live through God's wrath. The verses that are pertinent for this time are only two - and both tell us the saints will be overcome. Will the bride be "better" then them? No, it is only that the Bride was ready. The 5 foolish virgins were not ready. That is 50%! Think about it!

Douggg said:

The seal cover the 7 years, the 70th week. You have no 70th week in your interpretation of Revelation.

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You can feel free to pull the first seals out of their early church context. I will not pull a verse out of its context - and you SHOULDN'T.

I have said over and over: God has MARKED the 70th week: with 7's so it is easy to find.

Douggg said:

What you stated was your belief, not what is in the text. You are misinterpreting and misapplying 1Thesslanians4:14-18.
Here is what is in the text regarding the rapture/resurrection...

1Thessalonians5:9-11

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Salvation is has two parts. (1) Redemption of the soul, i.e. being born again. And (2) redemption of the body, into eternal life incorruptible bodies. Which that redemption is in the 1Thessalonians4:14-18, rapture/resurrection.

Luek 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

IN CONTEXT "salvation" (Soterion) here is referring to the rapture. We will be saved from wrath by way of the rapture. It is the only way "we get to live together with Him."

iamlamad said:

The rapture will only happen ONCE for the church. God's plan was NOT to take every human to heaven the moment they were born again. We are left here to witness.

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This is proof of your serious error.
We Christians are the Lords witnesses, we have His Commission, Matthew 28:19-20 and nowhere does the Bible say we will be absolved from it.
But you are locked into the 'rapture' theory and no Bible proofs will change your belief.
You know very well that there is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven, so to promote a theory without any real Bible support, is a very serious matter.
Keep your beliefs if you must, but don't promote it or make silly statements like we can choose our destiny.

keras said:

This is proof of your serious error.
We Christians are the Lords witnesses, we have His Commission, Matthew 28:19-20 and nowhere does the Bible say we will be absolved from it.
But you are locked into the 'rapture' theory and no Bible proofs will change your belief.
You know very well that there is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven, so to promote a theory without any real Bible support, is a very serious matter.
Keep your beliefs if you must, but don't promote it or make silly statements like we can choose our destiny.

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Exactly! That is why Jesus prayed as He did: that God would not take us out of the world. People DON'T disappear the moment they are born again. We are left here to testify.
OF COURSE I am locked into the rapture theory: it is in the bible - when understood corrrectly. If you had offered real proof, I would change in an instant. But your "proof" was only proof to you and your way of reading the texts.