If God withholds grace

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BNR32FAN

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He desires that none perish but his will isn’t done on the earth.

and this is why.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Hammster

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But you fail to compare 2 Peter 3:9 with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 which I also quoted. So if God desires that ALL MEN to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth then how many of them does He desire to perish? 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 compliment each other perfectly because they are the same message. Which also coincides with John 3:16 perfectly.
What you’ve done is take one verse out of context, paired it with another verse out of context, and used that to support your position. That’s poor hermeneutics.
 
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Hammster

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We have the major part to play. We have to obey. If we don’t, they’ll be no grace and no change.
Changing hearts is an act of grace. It’s undeserved. If you think your works are part of it, then you’ve added to the gospel.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Changing hearts is an act of grace. It’s completely undeserved.
There is something else besides deserved and undeserved. God changes hearts but we must obey His instructions to Us. It won’t happen while we sleep.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Changing hearts is an act of grace. It’s undeserved. If you think your works are part of it, then you’ve added to the gospel.
If you think obedience is totally unnecessary, you won’t be changed.
 
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Hammster

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There is something else besides deserved and undeserved. God changes hearts but we must obey His instructions to Us. It won’t happen while we sleep.
Maybe some are asleep when He does it. I don’t know.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It’s not necessary for regeneration.
Hamm, the problem is that every single Calvinist I’ve ever met demonstrates a lack of regeneration that I can only attribute to thinking it’s happening automatically. The Calvinists in power here wield power like Calvin without mercy or grace or forgiveness. They are not alone.

The most gracious and christlike believers I ever met strongly acted on obeying God. I’m a scientist and I test theories proposed to me. The idea that a personal choice to obey God is immaterial as compared to those who obeyed is undeniable. Grace and understanding is poured into the obedient such that I have never see in those who never obey God and know they did. Especially if the obedience is expensive.

So you can believe as you like but the fire of the judgement seat of Christ will test the outcome, whether wood, hay and stubble or gold, silver and precious stones.
 
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Kermos

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But you fail to compare 2 Peter 3:9 with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 which I also quoted. So if God desires that ALL MEN to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth then how many of them does He desire to perish? 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 compliment each other perfectly because they are the same message. Which also coincides with John 3:16 perfectly.
He desires that none perish but his will isn’t done on the earth.
Your thesis remains an error for including 1 Timothy 2:4, and here is the explanation. The proper exegesis of 2 Peter 3:9 remains valid (post in this thread)
The word "all' occurs in various passages in the Bible. Let's examine 2 particular occurrences, 1 Timothy 2:4 and Acts 1:21.
Why Acts 1:21, you might ask, well, it relates to a broader scope. I'll try to keep it brief:

The Apostle John recorded the supper that preceded the crucifixion in John chapters 13-17.

Among the supper discourse, Lord Jesus says several important things:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes salvation and sanctification)

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you [will] testify also" (John 15:26-27)
Lord Jesus uses the word "you" repeatedely throughout John chapters 13-17, including the above quotations.

Lord Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the audience represented in the word "you".

Lord Jesus declared that no member represented in the audience of "you" can choose Jesus, but Jesus exclusively chooses every member represented in the audience of "you".

Every member represented in the audience of "you" is saved from the wrath of God (John 6:29, John 15:16, John 3:36).

Lord Jesus addresses the audience of all believers in all time (for more detail on this, please see The Word of God's Audience at the Supper Recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 13 to 17 )

ENTER ACTS 1:21

After the Christ's ascension, the disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is "all" the time they were with Jesus as described by the Apostle Peter here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were many apostles including Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

The Apostle Peter's description in Acts 1:21 clearly puts Joseph and Matthias in the supper room covered in John chapters 13-17.

The Apostle Peter said "all" - that is "all the time" in Acts 1:21.
On this site, I repeatedly encountered self-willians (2 Peter 2:9-10) who claim that the "all" mentioned by Peter in Acts 1:21 does not mean that Joseph and Matthias were present during the time in the supper room covered in John 13-17; furthermore, this is part of their attempt to confine the "you" mentioned by Lord Jesus as recorded in John 15:16 to the apostles only - strictly and exclusively constrained to the apostles from among the disciples as recorded when He chose the twelve (Luke 6:13).

ENTER 1 TIMOTHY 2:4

The Apostle Paul wrote that God "desires all men to be saved" in 1 Timothy 2:4, and the self-willians assert that the "all" means every single person without exception.

DUPLICITY EXPOSED

The self-willians strongly assert "all" does not mean "all" in "all the time" for Acts 1:21.

The self-willians strongly assert "all" does mean "all" in "all men" for 1 Timothy 2:4.

Self-willians are inconsistent in applying the rules of language and literary style.

PROPER LANGUAGE RULES AND LITERARY STYLE

In Acts 1:21 and surrounding context, constraints are not present on "all", so "all" means "all the time".

In 1 Timothy 2:4 and surrounding context, constraints are present on "all", so "all" means all types of people because of qualification placed on the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 based upon the broader passage by Paul about prayers "be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life" (1 Timothy 2:1-2).

Self-willed persons not only get the "all" denotation and connotation reversed between Acts 1:21 and 1 Timothy 2:4, but they daringly deny that Lord Jesus' refers to all believers in all time when the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

CRITICAL POINTS ABOUT 1 TIMOTHY 2:4

The logical conclusion of "all men" meaning every person walking on planet Earth is universalism (all people everywhere are saved from the wrath of God regardless of whether a person believes in Jesus Christ) which is heretical because it is inconsistent with scripture and Apostolic teaching.

The 1 Timothy 2:4 passage never mentions explicitly nor implicitly that men have the ability to choose toward God, so this passage is absolutely not a proof text for choosing God to salvation.

Therefore, your claimed concept of "none to perish" or "all men" supports neither of your thesis'.
 
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Hammster

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Yes if a person doesn’t set his heart on serving God then he cannot be born again.
If your heart is set on God, you don’t need to be born again.
 
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Hammster

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Hamm, the problem is that every single Calvinist I’ve ever met demonstrates a lack of regeneration that I can only attribute to thinking it’s happening automatically. The Calvinists in power here wield power like Calvin without mercy or grace or forgiveness. They are not alone.

The most gracious and christlike believers I ever met strongly acted on obeying God. I’m a scientist and I test theories proposed to me. The idea that a personal choice to obey God is immaterial as compared to those who obeyed is undeniable. Grace and understanding is poured into the obedient such that I have never see in those who never obey God and know they did. Especially if the obedience is expensive.

So you can believe as you like but the fire of the judgement seat of Christ will test the outcome, whether wood, hay and stubble or gold, silver and precious stones.
Seems to me you are confusing regeneration with sanctification.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your thesis remains an error for including 1 Timothy 2:4, and here is the explanation. The proper exegesis of 2 Peter 3:9 remains valid (post in this thread)
The word "all' occurs in various passages in the Bible. Let's examine 2 particular occurrences, 1 Timothy 2:4 and Acts 1:21.
Why Acts 1:21, you might ask, well, it relates to a broader scope. I'll try to keep it brief:
The Apostle John recorded the supper that preceded the crucifixion in John chapters 13-17.

Among the supper discourse, Lord Jesus says several important things:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes salvation and sanctification)

"I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation)

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you [will] testify also" (John 15:26-27)
Lord Jesus uses the word "you" repeatedely throughout John chapters 13-17, including the above quotations.

Lord Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the audience represented in the word "you".

Lord Jesus declared that no member represented in the audience of "you" can choose Jesus, but Jesus exclusively chooses every member represented in the audience of "you".

Every member represented in the audience of "you" is saved from the wrath of God (John 6:29, John 15:16, John 3:36).

Lord Jesus addresses the audience of all believers in all time (for more detail on this, please see The Word of God's Audience at the Supper Recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 13 to 17 )

ENTER ACTS 1:21

After the Christ's ascension, the disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is "all" the time they were with Jesus as described by the Apostle Peter here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were many apostles including Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

The Apostle Peter's description in Acts 1:21 clearly puts Joseph and Matthias in the supper room covered in John chapters 13-17.

The Apostle Peter said "all" - that is "all the time" in Acts 1:21.​
On this site, I repeatedly encountered self-willians (2 Peter 2:9-10) who claim that the "all" mentioned by Peter in Acts 1:21 does not mean that Joseph and Matthias were present during the time in the supper room covered in John 13-17; furthermore, this is part of their attempt to confine the "you" mentioned by Lord Jesus as recorded in John 15:16 to the apostles only - strictly and exclusively constrained to the apostles from among the disciples as recorded when He chose the twelve (Luke 6:13).

ENTER 1 TIMOTHY 2:4

The Apostle Paul wrote that God "desires all men to be saved" in 1 Timothy 2:4, and the self-willians assert that the "all" means every single person without exception.

DUPLICITY EXPOSED

The self-willians strongly assert "all" does not mean "all" in "all the time" for Acts 1:21.

The self-willians strongly assert "all" does mean "all" in "all men" for 1 Timothy 2:4.

Self-willians are inconsistent in applying the rules of language and literary style.

PROPER LANGUAGE RULES AND LITERARY STYLE

In Acts 1:21 and surrounding context, constraints are not present on "all", so "all" means "all the time".

In 1 Timothy 2:4 and surrounding context, constraints are present on "all", so "all" means all types of people because of qualification placed on the "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 based upon the broader passage by Paul about prayers "be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life" (1 Timothy 2:1-2).

Self-willed persons not only get the "all" denotation and connotation reversed between Acts 1:21 and 1 Timothy 2:4, but they daringly deny that Lord Jesus' refers to all believers in all time when the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

CRITICAL POINTS ABOUT 1 TIMOTHY 2:4

The logical conclusion of "all men" meaning every person walking on planet Earth is universalism (all people everywhere are saved from the wrath of God regardless of whether a person believes in Jesus Christ) which is heretical because it is inconsistent with scripture and Apostolic teaching.

The 1 Timothy 2:4 passage never mentions explicitly nor implicitly that men have the ability to choose toward God, so this passage is absolutely not a proof text for choosing God to salvation.

Therefore, your claimed concept of "none to perish" or "all men" supports neither of your thesis'.

And yet Jesus said to this very same audience abide in Me, unless you abide in Me you can do nothing, IF you abide in me and my words abide in you, you may ask anything. So it certainly sounds like they have a choice here.
 
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Hammster

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Where did Jesus say that?
We know why we must be born again. It’s because those in the flesh cannot please God. The unregenerate are in the flesh.
 
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