Patching the Israel-flaw in Covenant Theology

mkgal1

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The old covenant was wiped out at the cross
"Wiped out" or fulfilled? Because Jesus had this to say to the Pharisees (and I, personally, don't consider this "wiped out"):


The Greatest Commandment
(Deuteronomy 6:1-19; Mark 12:28-34)

Matthew 22:34-40 ~ And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 5:17 ~ Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.
 
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Davy

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Will the Real Israel Please Stand Up?

My version of Covenant Theology accepts no distinctions between OT and NT saints. Thus:
(1) OT and NT saints are all saved under the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal 3).
(2) Justification, regeneration, sanctification, and (charismatic) power-in-mission are the same for OT and NT saints.

But let's be honest. Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a bit of a bump in the road for Covenant Theology. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, how can Paul claim that:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

This is a problem because Jews are daily dying and going to hell, having not been justified by faith. And yet Paul even refers to the whole nation of Israel as the elect of God (verse 28) !!!!

Covenant Theology claims to resolve this apparent contradiction by classifying the church as "spiritual Israel". Yet the bump in the road remains, because Romans 11 is clearly speaking nationalistically, not "spiritually". Again, this is what Paul said:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

It's a pretty torturous exegesis that reads the Israel of that verse as the church (spiritual Israel). In my next post, I will provide a solution. I will describe a world view that allows for a literal reading of Paul's words.

Good question, but if one keeps to God's written Word, and that includes OT Bible history, then not everyone today who claims to be Jewish is really a descendant of one of the tribes of Israel. There are many foreigners throughout Bible history that became religious Jews, including Canaanites.

And in Romans 11, Paul did make the stipulation that even those of the seed of Israel MUST believe... to be saved.

So what Paul quoted from the OT prophets about all Israel being saved only involves the seed of Israel, not all calling themselves Israel. And it suggests that when Jesus returns they ALL... must believe on Christ Jesus for what he said to be true. The problem many have with that Romans 11 passage is they don't think all the seed of Israel will believe on Jesus when He returns, so really they don't believe it as written. I do.

But notice in Rev.3:9, there are Jews among them that 'say they are Jews, but are not, and are the synagogue of Satan'. Even those will be made to bow to Christ at the feet of His elect in the future.
 
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lordjeff

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Will the Real Israel Please Stand Up?

My version of Covenant Theology accepts no distinctions between OT and NT saints. Thus:
(1) OT and NT saints are all saved under the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal 3).
(2) Justification, regeneration, sanctification, and (charismatic) power-in-mission are the same for OT and NT saints.

But let's be honest. Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a bit of a bump in the road for Covenant Theology. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, how can Paul claim that:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

This is a problem because Jews are daily dying and going to hell, having not been justified by faith. And yet Paul even refers to the whole nation of Israel as the elect of God (verse 28) !!!!

Covenant Theology claims to resolve this apparent contradiction by classifying the church as "spiritual Israel". Yet the bump in the road remains, because Romans 11 is clearly speaking nationalistically, not "spiritually". Again, this is what Paul said:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

It's a pretty torturous exegesis that reads the Israel of that verse as the church (spiritual Israel). In my next post, I will provide a solution. I will describe a world view that allows for a literal reading of Paul's words.


I must beckon to differ that you think all Jews go to hell. In Romans 11, Paul reveals something that people have been puzzled for ad infinitum. There is more than 1 ladder to the Creator, after all only about 25% of God's creation is Christian. Israel is being used as a tool of God. The word chosen translates to burden. While God may have selected the Jewish people for what one sees as bias, it is really about passing on the Word. That is there burden because they would run into many roadblocks along the way. But there is a purpose. If you have ever wondered why Jewish people are so liberal-is they take the side of the underdog; they tend a bit more toward altruism than other peoples. The first Jewish Christians were maybe what it was intended to be with that group following the precepts & holidays that arose out of both traditions. But the further along in history, the less connection they had with the ministry of Christ, so the groups finally separated. I think of my late college roommate who sadly passed away last year. She was a party girl in college but once she became disabled she took on social justice causes & used her gift of music to soothe, exhilerate, & inspire people. I.e. she was doing the Gospel. So the way Romans is interpreted is that indeed all Israel will be saved. If Christ did not come for the gentiles, then what would have happened to the gentiles at that time?
 
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ralliann

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Good question, but if one keeps to God's written Word, and that includes OT Bible history, then not everyone today who claims to be Jewish is really a descendant of one of the tribes of Israel. There are many foreigners throughout Bible history that became religious Jews, including Canaanites.

And in Romans 11, Paul did make the stipulation that even those of the seed of Israel MUST believe... to be saved.

So what Paul quoted from the OT prophets about all Israel being saved only involves the seed of Israel, not all calling themselves Israel.
Do you say "seed of Israel" because of the remnant? Also the election [chosen] by grace?
Having reread the passage I am thinking maybe the identity of the tree might come in here. At least it did for me. Not sure this is helpful or right just putting it out there for comment.
The tree being the kingdom of Christ which king, kings, kingdom was promised to Abraham, the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant was made 430 years before Sinai.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
The kingdom of God, kingdom of priests was always attributed to the natural seed of Abraham (the circumcision). But the kingdom of priests in Jesus is made up of both natural seed and not natural seed (circumcision of the heart). It made no difference the human nature of the branches, but the spiritual nature. This tree being a kingdom of priests is spiritual Israel. With Christ as the nourishing root.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I must beckon to differ that you think all Jews go to hell. In Romans 11, Paul reveals something that people have been puzzled for ad infinitum. There is more than 1 ladder to the Creator, after all only about 25% of God's creation is Christian. Israel is being used as a tool of God. The word chosen translates to burden. While God may have selected the Jewish people for what one sees as bias, it is really about passing on the Word. That is there burden because they would run into many roadblocks along the way. But there is a purpose. If you have ever wondered why Jewish people are so liberal-is they take the side of the underdog; they tend a bit more toward altruism than other peoples. The first Jewish Christians were maybe what it was intended to be with that group following the precepts & holidays that arose out of both traditions. But the further along in history, the less connection they had with the ministry of Christ, so the groups finally separated. I think of my late college roommate who sadly passed away last year. She was a party girl in college but once she became disabled she took on social justice causes & used her gift of music to soothe, exhilerate, & inspire people. I.e. she was doing the Gospel. So the way Romans is interpreted is that indeed all Israel will be saved. If Christ did not come for the gentiles, then what would have happened to the gentiles at that time?

There's only one ladder.

5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Israel is the church, the bride of Christ in which Jew and Gentile were reconciled into one body.

"and so all Israel will be saved."
 
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Al Touthentop

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"Wiped out" or fulfilled? Because Jesus had this to say to the Pharisees (and I, personally, don't consider this "wiped out"):


The Greatest Commandment
(Deuteronomy 6:1-19; Mark 12:28-34)

Matthew 22:34-40 ~ And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 5:17 ~ Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them.

Paul says he made the law obsolete. Jesus fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly So his communication there wasn't that the law wasn't going to one day be obsolete but that it couldn't become obsolete until it had been fulfilled. And until the new covenant was testified to through his death and resurrection, he expected his disciples and the Pharisees to keep it. And it was through these greatest commands that he was going to fulfill it. What greater love was there?

I think this speaks to God's sense of Justice. He had to show that it could be done by a man, but also to fulfill justice that it would be fair to hold those accountable who didn't obey it. If he had created a law that was not possible to obey, then it would be unjust to punish anyone who didn't keep it.
 
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Davy

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Do you say "seed of Israel" because of the remnant? Also the election [chosen] by grace?
Having reread the passage I am thinking maybe the identity of the tree might come in here. At least it did for me. Not sure this is helpful or right just putting it out there for comment.
The tree being the kingdom of Christ which king, kings, kingdom was promised to Abraham, the covenant of circumcision. Which covenant was made 430 years before Sinai.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … : Heb. she shall become nations }
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
The kingdom of God, kingdom of priests was always attributed to the natural seed of Abraham (the circumcision). But the kingdom of priests in Jesus is made up of both natural seed and not natural seed (circumcision of the heart). It made no difference the human nature of the branches, but the spiritual nature. This tree being a kingdom of priests is spiritual Israel. With Christ as the nourishing root.

Sounds like you're confusing the Abrahamic covenant with circumcision. The Abrahamic covenant involves the Promise by Faith which was given first prior... to Abraham being circumcised (see Romans 4 and Galatians 3).

There's 4 groups Paul was pointing to in Romans 11:

1. the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. These whom God preserved, like the 7,000 Elijah was told about. These represent those like Christ's first Apostles and disciples of the seed of Israel, both of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel, which means even lost ten tribe Israelites that have believed, along with scattered Jews that believe on Jesus Christ.

2. the unbelieving Jews - Paul's brethren he wished to convert to Christ. These Paul said were blinded away from The Gospel, God having put the spirit of slumber upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and thus most of scattered Israel).

3. the believing Gentiles - those Paul said represent the wild olive tree grafted in to The Root (Christ).

4. the unbelieving Gentiles - involves the times of the Gentiles, which is when it's too late to believe during this present world, because Jesus will return at that point.

My main point is that the Promise by Faith (i.e., The Gospel), was always FIRST, prior to anything dealing with the law, including before circumcision.

And ultimately, once that is properly understood per Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, then today's Jews who don't know this should be wondering why they've never been taught how Abraham's belief on God's Promise was The Gospel of Jesus Christ all along.
 
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lordjeff

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I never taken number theory in the Bible literally. I don't think the Creator carves out numbers. One could argue the case that Paul got rid of the law. He was the type that would advocate for common sense. That can be applied even today. I mean if you shoplift 3 times do you get a life sentence. Well it's hard to prove insanity with shoplifting but it is easier to prove it with homicide. As to the various dictators that humanity has encountered over civilization, I think that is best left to the Creator. My theory is those who try to usurp the realm of God-that mean's those decisions that God gospels to us, they do so at their peril.
 
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ralliann

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Sounds like you're confusing the Abrahamic covenant with circumcision. The Abrahamic covenant involves the Promise by Faith which was given first prior... to Abraham being circumcised (see Romans 4 and Galatians 3).
Not so much confusing them but but attempting to distinguish things. So to add to what you have rightly pointed out I will add these verses.

No inheritance in the land given Abraham personally in in the covenant made in Genesis 15.
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
covenant made with Abraham spoke concerning the fourth generation of his seed
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
and a reading of Hebrews I think can clearly show the earthly kingdom was not what the fathers were looking for. I will not quote the scriptures to keep my response shorter.
I do not believe Abe, Isaac and Jacob were promised an inheritance in the land until the covenant made in Genesis 17.



There's 4 groups Paul was pointing to in Romans 11:

1. the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. These whom God preserved, like the 7,000 Elijah was told about. These represent those like Christ's first Apostles and disciples of the seed of Israel, both of the house of Judah and of the house of Israel, which means even lost ten tribe Israelites that have believed, along with scattered Jews that believe on Jesus Christ.

2. the unbelieving Jews - Paul's brethren he wished to convert to Christ. These Paul said were blinded away from The Gospel, God having put the spirit of slumber upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles (and thus most of scattered Israel).

3. the believing Gentiles - those Paul said represent the wild olive tree grafted in to The Root (Christ).

4. the unbelieving Gentiles - involves the times of the Gentiles, which is when it's too late to believe during this present world, because Jesus will return at that point.

My main point is that the Promise by Faith (i.e., The Gospel), was always FIRST, prior to anything dealing with the law, including before circumcision.
I pretty much agree with your above categories. Except the ten lost tribes. This to me speaks of jews as merely bioligical descendants? Those who were not circumcised were cut off. This notion has to do with the tree as I said before. The natural branches simply means the circumcision and the wild branches the uncircumcision. Which circumcision is not made with mens hands. The outward circumcision was a sign of the faith Abraham had while he was yet uncircumcised.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the
earth.
1. Abe was going to die before this covenant would be in force.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
2. 1st and second generation
Isaac and Jacob would also die before this covenant would be in force

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the
3. Joseph and the patrarchs would all die before this covenant was in force

Ex 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Ex 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

And ultimately, once that is properly understood per Paul in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, then today's Jews who don't know this should be wondering why they've never been taught how Abraham's belief on God's Promise was The Gospel of Jesus Christ all along.[/QUOTE]
 
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lordjeff

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One thing i point out in Paul here is that the jews of the time were deliberately blinded a t the time by the holy spirit to capture the gentiles. Re: the 12 lost tribes I think Revelation addresses that in the 24 elders phrasing. Paul believed Christ return would be imminent which did not happen & of course we have had plenty of opp & nothing happens. This has made the scientist in me wonder that the 2nd coming really comes with the end of suns life.
 
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Studyman

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Will the Real Israel Please Stand Up?

My version of Covenant Theology accepts no distinctions between OT and NT saints. Thus:
(1) OT and NT saints are all saved under the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal 3).
(2) Justification, regeneration, sanctification, and (charismatic) power-in-mission are the same for OT and NT saints.

But let's be honest. Paul's discussion of Israel in Romans 11 is a bit of a bump in the road for Covenant Theology. Given that justification by faith is the only way of salvation, how can Paul claim that:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

This is a problem because Jews are daily dying and going to hell, having not been justified by faith. And yet Paul even refers to the whole nation of Israel as the elect of God (verse 28) !!!!

Covenant Theology claims to resolve this apparent contradiction by classifying the church as "spiritual Israel". Yet the bump in the road remains, because Romans 11 is clearly speaking nationalistically, not "spiritually". Again, this is what Paul said:

"And so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).

It's a pretty torturous exegesis that reads the Israel of that verse as the church (spiritual Israel). In my next post, I will provide a solution. I will describe a world view that allows for a literal reading of Paul's words.

I have also questioned this until I spent some time on 1 Cor. 10.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

These things "happened to them" to teach us the consequences of our deeds.

Rom. 11:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It seems that these that were slain in the Examples God had written for our admonition will get a chance at redemption in the Great Throne Judgment. I think Paul was referring to Ezekiel 37 in the above verse.

Ez. 37:
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

And so, all those children of Israel that were slain, that God used to show HIS Power, His Wrath and His Mercy, shall live. Which makes perfect sense since God is a Just God, and caused these things to happen to them, for us.

1 Peter 1:
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Anyway, food for thought. Great topic :)
 
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Davy

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Not so much confusing them but but attempting to distinguish things. So to add to what you have rightly pointed out I will add these verses.

No inheritance in the land given Abraham personally in in the covenant made in Genesis 15.
Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
covenant made with Abraham spoke concerning the fourth generation of his seed
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
and a reading of Hebrews I think can clearly show the earthly kingdom was not what the fathers were looking for. I will not quote the scriptures to keep my response shorter.
I do not believe Abe, Isaac and Jacob were promised an inheritance in the land until the covenant made in Genesis 17.

You probably don't realize it, but you contradict yourself. The Acts 7:5 verse simply means Abraham didn't inherit the land from his ancestors, but instead was given it by promise from God via Abraham's Faith. Yet it is still of GOD's Birthright blessing to Abraham, and that's what you appear to be confused about. God had a Birthright blessing to give just as a father passes on the birthright to his elder son, and that's where the idea of inheritance applies that Apostle Paul spoke of. The blessings God gave to Abraham, which includes The Gospel most of all, are all part of God's Birthright.

An earthly possession is also exactly what God promised to Abraham and his seed, involving the literal lands of Canaan.

Gen 12:5-7
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, 'Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, Who appeared unto him.'

KJV

I pretty much agree with your above categories. Except the ten lost tribes. This to me speaks of jews as merely bioligical descendants? Those who were not circumcised were cut off. This notion has to do with the tree as I said before. The natural branches simply means the circumcision and the wild branches the uncircumcision. Which circumcision is not made with mens hands. The outward circumcision was a sign of the faith Abraham had while he was yet uncircumcised.

Well, the line of thinking you're coming from isn't from Bible Scripture, it is a secularist type thinking applied to The Bible. The history of the ten northern tribe kingdom vs. the southern kingdom of three tribes is well written of in Bible history. Also, the eventual fate of both of those two houses into Christ's future Kingdom is well written of also in Bible Scripture. So there's really no sense in pretending God's future Kingdom under His Son is not going to involve the earth, for it definitely will.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the
earth.

You can't read something else into that verse with bypassing that part in red, which is what you're doing, and that obviously so you can keep a tradition of men you're on. That Heb.11:13 idea is that they died 'in Faith', being aware of the Promise by Faith (i.e., The Gospel), and for THAT reason, at in THEIR time, they confessed they were but strangers on the earth.

In other words, they, just as WE today, admit that this PRESENT world we live in, is NOT the Kingdom to come when Jesus returns. Simple. The advantage we have in OUR time, is that Christ already came the 1st time and died on the cross for those of us who believe, His spiritual Kingdom manifesting. However, that doesn't mean our Lord Jesus left out those OT saints who also believed but haven't yet received the promises, because Peter showed how Jesus during His resurrection went and preached The Gospel to the dead, and led those who believed out of the darkness of the prison house. It was prophesy in Isaiah that He would do that (Isaiah 42:7; 1 Peter 3 & 4).

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV


The idea is that it takes both the Old Testament times and the New Testament times to perfect the whole. The OT saints who believed saw the Promise of Christ's Salvation but didn't get to live to see it fulfilled on the cross. Likewise we today believe even though we didn't live in the time of the Apostles to witness Christ's death on the cross. Thus the OT saints didn't get to live to see Christ's Salvation like we have, and that's the "better thing" provided us. And like 1 Thess.4 shows, we who remain and are alive at Christ's return shall not precede (KJV "prevent") the saints who have already died.
 
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ralliann

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You probably don't realize it, but you contradict yourself. The Acts 7:5 verse simply means Abraham didn't inherit the land from his ancestors, but instead was given it by promise from God via Abraham's Faith. Yet it is still of GOD's Birthright blessing to Abraham, and that's what you appear to be confused about. God had a Birthright blessing to give just as a father passes on the birthright to his elder son, and that's where the idea of inheritance applies that Apostle Paul spoke of. The blessings God gave to Abraham, which includes The Gospel most of all, are all part of God's Birthright.

An earthly possession is also exactly what God promised to Abraham and his seed, involving the literal lands of Canaan.

Gen 12:5-7
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, 'Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, Who appeared unto him.'

KJV



Well, the line of thinking you're coming from isn't from Bible Scripture, it is a secularist type thinking applied to The Bible. The history of the ten northern tribe kingdom vs. the southern kingdom of three tribes is well written of in Bible history. Also, the eventual fate of both of those two houses into Christ's future Kingdom is well written of also in Bible Scripture. So there's really no sense in pretending God's future Kingdom under His Son is not going to involve the earth, for it definitely will.



You can't read something else into that verse with bypassing that part in red, which is what you're doing, and that obviously so you can keep a tradition of men you're on. That Heb.11:13 idea is that they died 'in Faith', being aware of the Promise by Faith (i.e., The Gospel), and for THAT reason, at in THEIR time, they confessed they were but strangers on the earth.

In other words, they, just as WE today, admit that this PRESENT world we live in, is NOT the Kingdom to come when Jesus returns. Simple. The advantage we have in OUR time, is that Christ already came the 1st time and died on the cross for those of us who believe, His spiritual Kingdom manifesting. However, that doesn't mean our Lord Jesus left out those OT saints who also believed but haven't yet received the promises, because Peter showed how Jesus during His resurrection went and preached The Gospel to the dead, and led those who believed out of the darkness of the prison house. It was prophesy in Isaiah that He would do that (Isaiah 42:7; 1 Peter 3 & 4).

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
KJV


The idea is that it takes both the Old Testament times and the New Testament times to perfect the whole. The OT saints who believed saw the Promise of Christ's Salvation but didn't get to live to see it fulfilled on the cross. Likewise we today believe even though we didn't live in the time of the Apostles to witness Christ's death on the cross. Thus the OT saints didn't get to live to see Christ's Salvation like we have, and that's the "better thing" provided us. And like 1 Thess.4 shows, we who remain and are alive at Christ's return shall not precede (KJV "prevent") the saints who have already died.
I do not see my comments being contradictory. I do not see what you are saying as that much different than I had said or at least intened. I do think you read things into my post that were not there.
But you certainly appear to agree that Abe has not yet entered into his inheritance.
I do think that terms such as "this life" vs "the next life", "this world",vs "the next world" (or "world to come") would be better terms, to help avoid such misunderstandings.
Abes inheritance was not an earthly worldly kingdom in this life. His faith was in God raising him up from the dead. That is what God tested him with concerning his only son Isaac.
 
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Davy

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I do not see my comments being contradictory. I do not see what you are saying as that much different than I had said or at least intened. I do think you read things into my post that were not there.
But you certainly appear to agree that Abe has not yet entered into his inheritance.
I do think that terms such as "this life" vs "the next life", "this world",vs "the next world" (or "world to come") would be better terms, to help avoid such misunderstandings.
Abes inheritance was not an earthly worldly kingdom in this life. His faith was in God raising him up from the dead. That is what God tested him with concerning his only son Isaac.

Well, when you say things like an earthly kingdom is not what the fathers were looking for, and bypass the blessing God gave Abraham about literally inheriting lands in the middle east, then my comments are going to show you Scripture where you are confused, which is what I did.

The simple idea of Hebrews 11 about their recognizing they are 'strangers' because God has promised them a kingdom and they knew it, is a simple understanding that this 'present world time' ain't it. That's all. It doesn't mean that in connection with God's blessing to Abraham about literal lands on earth isn't real. Christ's Apostles understood this simple matter also...

2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV
 
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ralliann

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Well, when you say things like an earthly kingdom is not what the fathers were looking for, and bypass the blessing God gave Abraham about literally inheriting lands in the middle east, then my comments are going to show you Scripture where you are confused, which is what I did.
I am not trying to be contentious really, but I qualified that with "in this life". Abraham did not inherit a kingdom in his lifetime (this world).
The simple idea of Hebrews 11 about their recognizing they are 'strangers' because God has promised them a kingdom and they knew it, is a simple understanding that this 'present world time' ain't it. That's all.
I agree, as I said above about "this life", this world.
It doesn't mean that in connection with God's blessing to Abraham about literal lands on earth isn't real.
Again I agree. All I put forth is the notion of two covenants of which both are "real". One in this life, and this world.
1.An heir from his own loins......The children of Jacob which went into Egypt, becoming enslaved.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
2. Judgement of Egypt, and redemption from slavery.
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
3. Abraham is to die
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
4. The fourth generation of his seed.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Christ's Apostles understood this simple matter also...

2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV
I have no squabble with what you have said?
Yes they understood it, as they wrote concerning these things all of which are real.
My read of the apostles thus far....is inclusive of two covenants. there is the heavenly kingdom of the next world and the next life of which I believe Genesis 17 speaks to.
Genesis 15 Abe dies but is promised heirs and redemption of the fourth generation of his seed. Isaac, Jacob and patriarchs are the first thru the third generation.
 
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Davy

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I am not trying to be contentious really, but I qualified that with "in this life". Abraham did not inherit a kingdom in his lifetime (this world).
I agree, as I said above about "this life", this world.

Still doesn't mean Christ's coming Kingdom, and God's Kingdom after that in final, is not going to involve this earth, for it will, as written that the meek shall inherit the earth. In Isaiah 45:18 God said He created this earth to be lived upon, and it will be, for all eternity. So that strikes out men's spiritualizations that Christ's Kingdom in the world to come won't involve this earth. It also strikes out any ideas against God's Promise to Abraham about his seed receiving the promised lands.

Again I agree. All I put forth is the notion of two covenants of which both are "real". One in this life, and this world.
1.An heir from his own loins......The children of Jacob which went into Egypt, becoming enslaved.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
2. Judgement of Egypt, and redemption from slavery.
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
3. Abraham is to die
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
4. The fourth generation of his seed.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

I have no squabble with what you have said?
Yes they understood it, as they wrote concerning these things all of which are real.
My read of the apostles thus far....is inclusive of two covenants. there is the heavenly kingdom of the next world and the next life of which I believe Genesis 17 speaks to.
Genesis 15 Abe dies but is promised heirs and redemption of the fourth generation of his seed. Isaac, Jacob and patriarchs are the first thru the third generation.

This is what Apostle Paul pointed to in Romans 9 regarding the Promise, and that those in the Promise are 'counted' for the seed, and not those simply born of the flesh...

Gen 15:4-6
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, "This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

5 And He brought him forth abroad, and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them': and He said unto him, 'So shall thy seed be.'


6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
KJV


Also Paul pointed to Gen.15 with this...

Rom 4:17-18
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before Him Whom he believed, even God, Who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, 'So shall thy seed be.'
KJV

With thorough study of Bible history, God scattered the majority of the 12 tribes of Israel among the Gentiles, and once The Gospel was rejected at Jerusalem, it was then preached to the nations, (western nations especially at first), and they became the traditional Christian nations of history made up of both believing scattered Israelites and believing Gentiles, combined into Christ's Church.

There is NOT supposed to be a separation between believing Jews and believing Gentiles in Christ's Church, even as Apostle Paul once had to rebuke Apostle Peter for separating himself away from Gentile brethren when Peter's Jewish brethren came for a visit from Jerusalem (Galatians).

God's Birthright was first given to Abraham by Promise, and it included The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That Promise continued to Isaac, then to Jacob, but it didn't stop there. It continued through Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it stopped. That means today... God's Birthright Promises, including The Gospel, should be manifested among Ephraim who God promised would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). The nation of Israel is only 1 nation. So where are the "multitude of nations" under the tribe of Ephraim? And remember, the Promise by Faith, which is about The Gospel also per Paul in Galatians 3:8, is involved in those "multitude of nations".
 
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ralliann

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Still doesn't mean Christ's coming Kingdom, and God's Kingdom after that in final, is not going to involve this earth,
Not really what is my concern. We are to walk like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as strangers and aliens in this world and this life. Our hope is in his resurrection from the dead.
for it will, as written that the meek shall inherit the earth. In Isaiah 45:18 God said He created this earth to be lived upon, and it will be, for all eternity. So that strikes out men's spiritualizations that Christ's Kingdom in the world to come won't involve this earth.
This world and this life is not eternal. Men die hence the reurrection is formost in Christ.
It al
so strikes out any ideas against God's Promise to Abraham about his seed receiving the promised lands.
The two inheritances belong to Israel, as a double portion of the firstborn. One portion in this world this life under Moses, with the sons of Levi according to the order of Aaron their high priests. The other portion in the next life, the next world, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With Jesus Christ our high priest according to the order of Melchzedek.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.


 
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Not really what is my concern. We are to walk like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as strangers and aliens in this world and this life. Our hope is in his resurrection from the dead.
This world and this life is not eternal. Men die hence the reurrection is formost in Christ.
It al
The two inheritances belong to Israel, as a double portion of the firstborn. One portion in this world this life under Moses, with the sons of Levi according to the order of Aaron their high priests. The other portion in the next life, the next world, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With Jesus Christ our high priest according to the order of Melchzedek.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Your last paragraph is a bit confusing. Are you trying to say that the Levitical priesthood had something to do with inheritance per God's original Promise to Abraham, which Abraham believed by Faith?

If so, then that idea is completely false, and not written in God's Word.

God's Promise to Abraham involving the land was made in connection with the Promise by Faith, not of the law. It did NOT involve a Levitical priesthood, even as Paul shows in Hebrews 7. So the 'first' inheritance, even in this present world, has always... been The Gospel Promise which God first gave Abraham by Faith, which includes the blessings He gave Abraham.

What all did those blessings include? It involved The Gospel of Jesus Christ, inheritance of the land, strong military power in ruling the gates of one's enemies, plenty of corn and wine, i.e., natural resources, etc. Those things involve God's Birthright blessings given first through Abraham, prior to the giving of the law and setting up of the Levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 7 reveals that our Lord Jesus Christ was the Melchizedek that met Abraham, offered him 'bread and wine' and blessed him. That priesthood has no connection with the Levitical priesthood. Jesus was our High Priest and King prior to this world. That is why the Scriptures says He is a Priest 'forever' after the order of Melchizedek (which means King of Righteousness). So not just from the time of the cross and of the next world, but He has been that Priest eternal.
 
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ralliann

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Your last paragraph is a bit confusing. Are you trying to say that the Levitical priesthood had something to do with inheritance per God's original Promise to Abraham, which Abraham believed by Faith?
No, not as you have put. Not trying to be contentious but you did not respond to most of my post. The mention of the Hebrews passage was to emphasize the world to come where of they spoke. The priesthood at least to my mention has to do with a kingdom of priests.
If so, then that idea is completely false, and not written in God's Word.
If so...….
The rest of this post is merely you responding to what you have said. Not upset, rather just putting forth your manner of dealing with peoples posts. Which makes it cumbersome to see each others point of view.
 
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No, not as you have put. Not trying to be contentious but you did not respond to most of my post. The mention of the Hebrews passage was to emphasize the world to come where of they spoke. The priesthood at least to my mention has to do with a kingdom of priests.

That still doesn't explain your seeming attempt to connect a priesthood with Abraham's Faith on the Promise.

If so...….
The rest of this post is merely you responding to what you have said. Not upset, rather just putting forth your manner of dealing with peoples posts. Which makes it cumbersome to see each others point of view.

My manner has nothing to do with it, unless that is really what your responses here are about. In that case, you need to find someone else to converse with. I call it like I see it and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not here to spoon feed brethren. You may find a lot of other forums and threads that push the milk according to whatever kind of flavor you care to create. I won't abase God's Word nor myself with doing that.
 
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