If God withholds grace

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
We ask because it’s not deserved.

Ah, so the aspect of humbling yourself is not considered?

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Answer my question first.

You didn’t have a question

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Ah, so the aspect of humbling yourself is not considered?

We ask out of humility. We God opens our eyes to our depraved state, it humbles us.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
You didn’t have a question

I did but you had answered it in the meantime, thanks.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
We ask out of humility. We God opens our eyes to our depraved state, it humbles us.

Not according to the Bible. It says, “humble YOURSELF and he will lift you up.” God does not open us to our depraved state. He shows us our sin. Thevery words you use show a reluctance towards humility.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Ok, you answered.

There is more than one reason God grants us something of himself.

What we can earn or merit from God is praise or punishment?

Nevertheless there are matters imparted to us that we do not earn/merit but do have conditions. Salvation, forgiveness and grace are theee of these. It is false to say we don’t merit these as though there are no conditions. It would be better to say

God gives grace to the humble, not connecting grace with merit at all.

You say that, though, as if it’s earned. God could have just as easily not have given grace to the humble. That He chooses to do so is grace upon grace.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Not according to the Bible. It says, “humble YOURSELF and he will lift you up.” God does not open us to our depraved state. He shows us our sin. Thevery words you use show a reluctance towards humility.

Humility should be the natural result of seeing the face of God.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
You say that, though, as if it’s earned. God could have just as easily not have given grace to the humble. That He chooses to do so is grace upon grace.

No I did not. There is more than earned or unearned. No one earns a spouse or friend. Yet there is some part we play in receiving and having a spouse or friend. That relationship is not earned or merited but it is not therefore free of our part.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
Humility should be the natural result of seeing the face of God.

Who has seen the face of God? How useful is that?

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
No I did not. There is more than earned or unearned. No one earns a spouse or friend. Yet there is some part we play in receiving and having a spouse or friend. That relationship is not earned or merited but it is not therefore free of our part.

It’s still meritorious, regardless of how you spin it.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Who has seen the face of God? How useful is that?

Didn’t mean to get too spiritual. When God regenerates us, and He is revealed to us, it should humble us.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
It’s still meritorious, regardless of how you spin it.

You refuse to acknowledge conditions and that there is more than merit or no merit when it comes to God granting.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
Didn’t mean to get too spiritual. When God regenerates us, and He is revealed to us, it should humble us.

If that were the case, we’d all agree all having seen the same “face” or be regenerated by the same hand.

The Bible insists we, not He, must humble ourselves. He doesn’t reveal himself to any but those who fulfill the conditions. If a man waits for God to simply reveal himself with nothing done on the part of the man, that will never happen.

Jesus actually said those who keep his teaching will experience God dwelling in them....conditions. That experience is neither merited nor unmerited.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You refuse to acknowledge conditions and that there is more than merit or no merit when it comes to God granting.

There are no conditions.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
If that were the case, we’d all agree all having seen the same “face” or be regenerated by the same hand.

The Bible insists we, not He, must humble ourselves. He doesn’t reveal himself to any but those who fulfill the conditions. If a man waits for God to simply reveal himself with nothing done on the part of the man, that will never happen.

Jesus actually said those who keep his teaching will experience God dwelling in them....conditions. That experience is neither merited nor unmerited.

What exactly did He say?

Aussie Pete · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
If God withholds grace for any reason you can think of, is He still good? And could you think of any way that God could withhold grace and not be good?

God does not withhold grace. People refuse grace. Christians can fall from grace. God is good by nature, unlike the human race. God does not change. He changes the way He does things, but He does not change.

Hammster · Apr 18, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
God does not withhold grace. People refuse grace. Christians can fall from grace. God is good by nature, unlike the human race. God does not change. He changes the way He does things, but He does not change.

Changing hearts is an act of grace. He doesn’t change everyone’s heart.

Kermos · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
If God withholds grace for any reason you can think of, is He still good? And could you think of any way that God could withhold grace and not be good?

The Apostle Peter wrote that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under judgement (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The Apostle Paul wrote that God molds vessels of destruction (Romans 9:29-23).

Powerfully, the Lord Jesus proclaimed damnation upon Capernaum for He very specifically stated "You will descend to Hades" (Matthew 11:23, for greater context Matthew 11:20-24).

God is good to save any! By God's grace for God's glory!

Kermos · Apr 18, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Not according to the Bible. It says, “humble YOURSELF and he will lift you up.” God does not open us to our depraved state. He shows us our sin. Thevery words you use show a reluctance towards humility.

It appears that you quoted James 4:10.

1) James does not say that a person has the ability to humble herself or himself.

2) Paul wrote "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COVET.'" (Romans 7:7).

Paul didn't stop there, Paul did not write that he overcame his coveting.

Paul wrote further "But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind" (Romans 7:8).

James in chapter 4 expresses similar sentiment as Paul in Romans 7:7-8.

3) James in chapter 4 decisively presents that people are sinners in need of the work of God in order to have good fruit/actions.

James nearly pounds this in over and over in the passage.

James leads with "You lust and do not have; so you commit murder" (James 4:2).

James wraps up with "But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil" (James 4:16).

In between, James explains that fruit/action is dependent on the Lord's willpower (James 4:15), so ability is expressed in James chapter 4 - the ability of God to bring about good fruit in we God's children.

By the way, could the arrogant boasting James (4:16) referred to is people claiming they can humble themselves prior to any Act of God?

Behold the Word of God says "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles" (Matthew 18:3-4), and notice the similarity to the recorded words of the Apostle John in John 3:3-8.

God wrings a person being humble for the word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

bling · Apr 18, 2020

Hammster said:
What you are saying isn’t what God does, though. If He is gracious to some and not others, that doesn’t make Him ungracious. Why? He’s not obligated to be gracious to anyone. He has, however, promised to be gracious to His elect. So if He’s not gracious to even one, then He’s gone against His own promise.

If I am gracious to you but total ungracious to your neighbor, I am not a gracious person.

Not being gracious is the same as being ungracious and you feel God is not being gracious to some people, so if that is true then God is ungracious.

God does describe Himself as being just like Jesus, being Love itself, consistent and just. There is no “law” forcing or obligating God to be gracious, other than the fact God said He does not lie.

For God to be as the Bible and Jesus describe Him, He has obligated Himself to be gracious to all people, but if a person does not and will never accept God’s grace, mercy, charity, Love and forgiveness, God will not force Himself on them.

If God withholds grace

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Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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