Teach Me

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

Since my attempt was such a dismal failure, I'll concede and let's try something different. Teach me biology. However, I'm going to ask you to do it in a way that may be unfamiliar.

I don't want you to take an empirical approach. Don't show me data from the natural world. I want you to teach me the logical, mathematical structure of biology. Further, though I don't expect you to teach the entirety of biology, I do want your lessons to touch on evolution - whether you teach me evolution itself or what you think is an alternative to evolution, the logical structure you present needs to explain why life has variety.

I know that's a large request, so, to try to provide a starting point, let me ask this:

What is the fundamental question of biology?

Speedwell · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
Since my attempt was such a dismal failure, I'll concede and let's try something different. Teach me biology. However, I'm going to ask you to do it in a way that may be unfamiliar.

I don't want you to take an empirical approach. Don't show me data from the natural world. I want you to teach me the logical, mathematical structure of biology. Further, though I don't expect you to teach the entirety of biology, I do want your lessons to touch on evolution - whether you teach me evolution itself or what you think is an alternative to evolution, the logical structure you present needs to explain why life has variety.

I know that's a large request, so, to try to provide a starting point, let me ask this:

What is the fundamental question of biology?

What is life?

muichimotsu · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
Since my attempt was such a dismal failure, I'll concede and let's try something different. Teach me biology. However, I'm going to ask you to do it in a way that may be unfamiliar.

I don't want you to take an empirical approach. Don't show me data from the natural world. I want you to teach me the logical, mathematical structure of biology. Further, though I don't expect you to teach the entirety of biology, I do want your lessons to touch on evolution - whether you teach me evolution itself or what you think is an alternative to evolution, the logical structure you present needs to explain why life has variety.

I know that's a large request, so, to try to provide a starting point, let me ask this:

What is the fundamental question of biology?

The logical mathematical structure of biology necessarily requires the data from the natural world, you're putting the cart before the horse and suggesting that because we don't have a super-precise definition of life (the fundamental question of biology arguably), that the foundation is somehow lacking rather than it working on a natural science methodology of studying data and formulating an explanatory model. You can't separate the structure from the data except in order of sequence at best, but they aren't able to be mutually independent of each other for biology to actually function

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

muichimotsu said:
The logical mathematical structure of biology necessarily requires the data from the natural world, you're putting the cart before the horse and suggesting that because we don't have a super-precise definition of life (the fundamental question of biology arguably), that the foundation is somehow lacking rather than it working on a natural science methodology of studying data and formulating an explanatory model. You can't separate the structure from the data except in order of sequence at best, but they aren't able to be mutually independent of each other for biology to actually function

Your opinion has been noted.

sesquiterpene · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
What is the fundamental question of biology?

What are the properties of this set of organisms?

I'm not going to be much help here - organisms are so diverse that it is nigh impossible to construct rules that govern all organisms. Are all swans black?

I don't see any reason to think that there will be "fundamental theorems" in biology. The closest things to mathematical basics in biology would be population genetics, and I'd have to dust off my evolution textbooks to review it. You're better off starting with Wikipedia.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

Speedwell said:
What is life?

OK. What, then, is the fundamental theorem that begins to address that question?

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

sesquiterpene said:
What are the properties of this set of organisms?

I'm not going to be much help here - organisms are so diverse that it is nigh impossible to constructs rules that govern all organisms. Are all swans black?

I don't see any reason to think that there will be "fundamental theorems" in biology. The closest things to mathematical basics in biology would be population genetics, and I'd have to dust off my evolution textbooks to review it. You're better off starting with Wikipedia.

Self study is not the goal. The goal is to see if the fundamentals of biology can be presented to me in a logical, mathematical structure. If that is not an applicable approach for biology, so be it.

Per your question, is there a standard method for obtaining the properties of organisms?

Speedwell · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
OK. What, then, is the fundamental theorem that begins to address that question?

Life is a characteristic that distinguishes physical entities which have the capacity for growth, reproduction and functional activity.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

Speedwell said:
Life is a characteristic that distinguishes physical entities which have the capacity for growth, reproduction and functional activity.

That's a definition rather than a theorem, but that's fine. We can go that direction. What are the measures used for growth, reproduction, and functional activity?

sesquiterpene · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
Per your question, is there a standard method for obtaining the properties of organisms?

Empirical observations, something you seem averse to - and once you get out the scalpels, it can get pretty messy.

I stick to chemistry myself.

Amittai · Apr 17, 2020

RNA, like clay, is crystalline.

Any of our ideas of the infinite is an approximation to an approximation.

Dimensions of space may be a sort of intrusion, and time may be a sort of extrusion.

S J Gould claimed to be an arch-darwinist and an atheist. But, his suggested progression in what gets loosely termed "evolution" is relatively speaking "punctuated" by contingencies.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

sesquiterpene said:
Empirical observations, something you seem averse to - and once you get out the scalpels, it can get pretty messy. I stick to chemistry myself.

OK.

essentialsaltes · Apr 17, 2020

I don't think we're getting any closer to evolution, but given your interest in 'theorems' and the formula in your other post, the question of reproduction makes me think of population dynamics and the models associated with it.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

Amittai said:
RNA, like clay, is crystalline.

Any of our ideas of the infinite is an approximation to an approximation.

Dimensions of space may be a sort of intrusion, and time may be a sort of extrusion.

S J Gould claimed to be an arch-darwinist and an atheist. But, his suggested progression in what gets loosely termed "evolution" is relatively speaking "punctuated" by contingencies.

Not sure how this relates to the OP.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

essentialsaltes said:
I don't think we're getting any closer to evolution, but given your interest in 'theorems' and the formula in your other post, the question of reproduction makes me think of population dynamics, and the models associated with it.

What is a fundamental question or principle associated with population dynamics?

Amittai · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
... if the fundamentals of biology can be presented to me in a logical, mathematical structure. If that is not an applicable approach for biology, so be it. ...

Reputedly Windelband and Rickert, amongst others, distinguished between non-individuating sciences, best suited to positivism, and individuating ones. Many "lower" life forms fit a half-way sort of house.

When an inert piece of matter becomes living is not well pinpointed by chemical analysis, IMO. But we intuit livingness, unless we are those ultra-materialists who dumb everything down beyond its full manifestations.

Maybe if we compare the cosmos where stellar formations change shape and size, with cellular ones, perhaps the distinction lies at a different "point" varying according to scale.

Certainly the metaphor of "breathed" at different levels including animal, and human, conveys some intuition.

Though I fell off the maths "conveyor belt" I think maths is big and that it also goes hand in hand with things that aren't maths.

I think the methodical use of intuition is generally neglected.

essentialsaltes · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
What is a fundamental question or principle associated with population dynamics?

"The rate at which a population increases in size if there are no density-dependent forces regulating the population is known as the intrinsic rate of increase. It is

dN/dt = rN
"

In other words, the growth rate of a population is proportional to the population (under the noted simplifying assumption)

Amittai · Apr 17, 2020

Resha Caner said:
... What are the measures used for growth, reproduction, and functional activity?

Hence the measures are partly in terms of mathematical definitions or even up to a point theorems, PLUS in addition things that go hand in hand with maths while they aren't maths.

Dead leaves have lost growing or sustaining functions, but haven't finished decomposing.

Buds that haven't even appeared yet are going to fill a kind of "template" when the moment comes. Popper spoke of "propensity fields". I propose several layers of these.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

Amittai said:
Hence the measures are partly in terms of mathematical definitions or even up to a point theorems, PLUS in addition things that go hand in hand with maths while they aren't maths.

Dead leaves have lost growing or sustaining functions, but haven't finished decomposing.

Buds that haven't even appeared yet are going to fill a kind of "template" when the moment comes. Popper spoke of "propensity fields". I propose several layers of these.

You're using a lot of terms I don't know. You'll need to define things. Not all of them. Pick one.

Resha Caner · Apr 17, 2020

essentialsaltes said:
"The rate at which a population increases in size if there are no density-dependent forces regulating the population is known as the intrinsic rate of increase. It is

dN/dt = rN
"

In other words, the growth rate of a population is proportional to the population (under the noted simplifying assumption)

I assume N = population size, t = time, r = proportionality constant

How does one determine 'r'? Does it somehow relate to reproductive processes of the population that would lead to an average birth rate per organism?

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