Sola Scriptura Doesn't Make Sense

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then respond with a point-by-point rebuttal of how my exegesis of John 12:48 is unsatisfying. Show an analysis of everything that I said about it and where it fails to satisfy.

Ditto. I said enough about it. You need to demonstrate, point by point, where my reading of it is inadequate.

And let's remember that it is a passage NOT addressed to the church - it was addressed to one man, arguably a prophet. And even where it says that Scripture is profitable it is talking about the OT, not the NT.

Who said I don't like that passage? I have no issues with it.

I could be mistaken, but I briefly recall you imply that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 was written exclusively to Timothy and not generically to the "man of God" (of which it says).
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I could be mistaken, but I briefly recall you imply that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 was written exclusively to Timothy and not generically to the "man of God" (of which it says).
The expression "man of God" would generically apply to any prophet (not to your average believer, though). And I said more than that.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What post # did you prove that this was talking about some divine hidden voice or revelation and not the actual words of Jesus? I did not see you make that case with Scripture.
I am not sure what you're demanding that I have to 'prove' about that verse. You certainly haven't proven anything in this discussion. I simply gave you my interpretation of the verse. If you feel that this whole debate stands or falls on that 1 verse, feel free to rebut whatever I said about it.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not true. Faith is not a feeling. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Let me get this straight. You hear the Word of God but you should accept it even though you DON'T feel certain that accepting it is the right thing to do? So you're telling me to discard the maxim, then:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and B is good, I should opt for B".

Sorry, I'm not willing to do that - and neither are you.

Thomas wanted to not only see Jesus, but He wanted to feel his side, and put his finger into the print of the nails, as well.

"Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25).

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing." (John 20:27).
You believe in the Resurrection (i.e. feel certain about it), right? And this is due to the influence of the Inward Witness, whereby you believe it, by Direct Revelation, without having put your fingers in the wounds. So what Thomas needed, to bolster his wavering faith, was more Direct Revelation. Thanks for bring up this passage, as it supports my conclusions.

You'll reply, "I believe it by Scripture, not by Direct Revelation". The truth is, you believe Scripture by the Inward Witness, and thus by Direct Revelation. Deny it all you want but that's the truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
God giving us the understanding on Scripture is not Him audibly talking to us.
Intellectual dishonesty. I have repeatedly repudiated the notion that Direct Revelation is limited strictly to ordinary sonic conversations. The primary element of Direct Revelation is feelings of certainty.

Again, if you are talking to a voice, you need to put forth the 1 John 4:1-3 test.
Intellectual dishonesty. You keep insinuating that I'm 'hearing voices' (in the traditional sense of that phrase). I have made no such pretenses. On the contrary, I have repeatedly said that I myself, not being prophet, do not as yet actually hear anything particularly loud and clear. On the other hand all Direct Revelation is always somewhat distinct, and thus in some sense more or less "loud and clear" (otherwise it wouldn't manage to convey anything to you). In a nutshell, I'm not hearing anything more than you are, I've just got a feeling of certainty, like you do, that Jesus is Lord. But all of us should be ASPIRING to be prophets (1Cor 14:1),as Paul COMMANDED. Note that Paul didn't consider it optional. Funny how you claim to be a devotee of Sola Scriptura, except for those commands that you don't much like.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
@Bible Highlighter, I think I responded to all your posts so far. If you think I missed any crucial points feel free to let me know. Since it seemed like a lot of rambling, I tried to pick out the main points to respond to. But I could have missed something important.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The expression "man of God" would generically apply to any prophet (not to your average believer, though). And I said more than that.

Where in context can you show me that "man of God" is referring to a prophet exclusively and not the believer in general?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Intellectual dishonesty. I have repeatedly repudiated the notion that Direct Revelation is limited strictly to ordinary sonic conversations. The primary element of Direct Revelation is feelings of certainty. Intellectual dishonesty. You keep insinuating that I'm 'hearing voices' (in the traditional sense of that phrase). I have made no such pretenses. On the contrary, I have repeatedly said that I myself, not being prophet, do not as yet actually hear anything particularly loud and clear. On the other hand all Direct Revelation is always somewhat distinct, and thus in some sense more or less "loud and clear" (otherwise it wouldn't manage to convey anything to you). In a nutshell, I'm not hearing anything more than you are, I've just got a feeling of certainty, like you do, that Jesus is Lord. But all of us should be ASPIRING to be prophets (1Cor 14:1),as Paul COMMANDED. Note that Paul didn't consider it optional. Funny how you claim to be a devotee of Sola Scriptura, except for those commands that you don't much like.

False accusation. I am not being dishonest with you. I honestly do not know what you believe and to read all of your posts and where you are coming from with what you believe is very difficult to say the least because you are not the most friendly or nice person to talk with (No offense). You talked about Abraham and how he heard a voice, etc. and so when you talked about how believers hear voices, and how you hear a voice, it just made sense that a literal audible voice was talking to you, too. If that is not the case, then that's great. I believe you. Thank you for clarifying, but do not call me intellectually dishonest. There was no hidden ulterior motive to slander you, friend. Anyways, if you believe God does not literally speak audible new words to you, or you do not do any new age automatic writing, then no new words of God are being added to the Bible and thus it is not a violation of Sola Scriptura. Feelings of inward witness of the truth of God's Word is not a new form of communication whereby new doctrine, or a major detailed information or word based instruction in righteousness is being put forth.

But do you believe an audible voice still happens for other believers today? Surely if God is going to continue in the same way, then why is He not speaking to you in an audible way? If He speaks in an audible way to other believers that you know, then have you ever asked them that they did the 1 John 4:1-3 test with the voice they are talking with? If they have not then they are not acting in biblical accordance with testing the spirits to see whether they are of God or not.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@JAL

If you are against Sola Scriptura, and you are open to new dreams, visions, near death experiences, other believers (not you) saying they hear the literal audible voice of God, etc. then why are you not attempting to print out a new Bible with these other experiences added as new books to the Bible? If God gave you some kind of spiritual experience in guiding you a certain day without hearing any words (but it was just a confirmed feeling), should you write this experience down and add it as the book called "JAL" in our Bibles? If your experiences are on equal authority this is what you should be doing. Hence, why your denial of the supremacy and sufficiency of Scripture (Which is God breathed) is not correct in my humble opinion. Also, are you open to listening to prophets, visions, dreams, and near death experiences? Do you try to reconcile these things with the Bible or do you see problems with them?

Let me ask you: Is there some person's vision out there that you do like?
A prophet? A dream? A near death experience? Do you know of any that you feel is truly from God? If so, then such things need to be mentioned in this thread here to show their equal footing with Scripture or the Bible. If you do not know of any dreams, visions, or audible voices being spoken to anyone you know or any believer that you like to listen to, then you are just making assumptions that these things have continued. At least claiming it as an unknown would be better until you confirm that such things are truly are of God.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Let me get this straight. You hear the Word of God but you should accept it even though you DON'T feel certain that accepting it is the right thing to do? So you're telling me to discard the maxim, then:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and B is good, I should opt for B".

Sorry, I'm not willing to do that - and neither are you.

I believe in my own invented term "Gloria Scriptura." That Scripture alone is to be glorified by minor secondary complimentary small tidbits of information from God (and there is no major adding of new doctrine, or new visions, dreams, etc.). Gloria Scriptura acknowledges the continuation of the Spirit speaking through believers today like in Mark 13:11, but is not major new doctrine, or new words to be added to the back of our Holy Bibles. Scripture is still the sole primary guidance of our faith, and no new words from God are to be added to the back of our Bibles. Scripture alone is sufficient and it is glorified and or magnified by other secondary minor tidbits of information (like the creation, our conscience, etc.).

So I am not against the inward witness of God talking to me about a verse or passage. I do not see this as a contradiction to the teaching of Sola Scriptura or Gloria Scriptura. Mark 13:11 (Which refers to how believers can speak new words by the Spirit under martyrdom) contradicts the name "Sola Scriptura" but it does not contradict the teaching of Sola Scriptura. If you were to ever read the definition for Sola Scriptura on Wikipedia, it states that they do accept things like church history (Which would be words of new information). Personally, I do not prescribe to Ecclesiology all too much. I am not big on hearing the words of men, but just the Word of God (the Bible). Granted, I prefer my own term Gloria Scriptura because it fits what I believe the Bible more accurately says (both in name, and in teaching). Scripture is glorified by minor sources of info. and no new major doctrine, or teachings is being brought forth to be added as a new book to the back of our Bibles.

Moral choices should be taken into account when we read the Word of God. This is why I believe many believers wrongfully accept Eternal Torment, Calvinism, Eternal Security, etc.; For in my opinion, these beliefs are not morally based on the goodness of God. Many believers also hold to the view that God told Hosea to marry a prostitute when that is not what it says in the King James Bible. Yet, they blindly eat it up because they are not thinking with their heart. But making moral choices involving God's Word is not acting outside of the Bible because the Bible talks about this already. It's not a foreign concept to the Bible.

You believe in the Resurrection (i.e. feel certain about it), right? And this is due to the influence of the Inward Witness, whereby you believe it, by Direct Revelation, without having put your fingers in the wounds. So what Thomas needed, to bolster his wavering faith, was more Direct Revelation. Thanks for bring up this passage, as it supports my conclusions.

No. Thomas was in the wrong for not having faith.

"Jesus said unto him, "Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
(John 20:29).​

Jesus was saying it is more blessed to believe and not to see / feel, etc.
So Jesus was correcting Thomas for his lack of unbelief or faith. So no. Your not reading this part of Scripture clearly here, friend.

You said:
You'll reply, "I believe it by Scripture, not by Direct Revelation". The truth is, you believe Scripture by the Inward Witness, and thus by Direct Revelation. Deny it all you want but that's the truth.

I believe a believer's eyes have to be opened spiritually by being born again spiritually in order to even understand some basic things of God, and they need to also ask God for the understanding of His Word when they read it, too. Paul says, "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:2). So we need love. Even if we do not agree, we need to love each other. This is said in context to Paul rebuking those on the misuse of a spiritual gift in 1 Corinthians 14. They were not edifying the body of Christ by giving any understanding to other believers because they spoke in tongues out of order without an interpreter. Nobody understood what was being said and thus, nobody was being edified and built up spiritually. Hence, there was no love. No care on giving helpful instruction or a word of prophecy to comfort. It was all just confusion or babble (kind of like what happened at the tower of babel).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I am not sure what you're demanding that I have to 'prove' about that verse. You certainly haven't proven anything in this discussion. I simply gave you my interpretation of the verse. If you feel that this whole debate stands or falls on that 1 verse, feel free to rebut whatever I said about it.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

A. All Scripture is profitable:

(a) for doctrine, (because)
~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).​
(b) for correction (and)
(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):
~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalm 119:11)​
All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
(d) May be perfect.
(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
~ (1) For living by (acting on, obeying) Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)​
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)
All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect and complete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in
(1) doctrine,
(2) correction, and
(3) training in righteousness.​
All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to be perfect and complete unto all good works. Not some good works. But all good works. No oral Words of God alone (or some other informational communication by God) were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?​
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where in context can you show me that "man of God" is referring to a prophet exclusively and not the believer in general?
I understand you'd like to shift the burden of proof, but let's be clear on something. All I need to demonstrate is the frequent ambiguity of Scripture because every obscure passage reinforces our need for Direct Revelation to comprehend it reliably. After all, all of us are aware of one, and only one, potentially infallible expositor of the text - and that is Direct Revelation. Moving on.

In most epistles, Paul's general designation for believers is "the saints". And yet twice when referring to Timothy he writes like this:

"But you, man of God, flee from all this" (1 tim 6:11")

The Greek phrase for "man of God", per Meyer's commentary, "is mostly understood by expositors to denote those entrusted with the office of evangelist".

And in the OT, that phrase commonly designated a prophet.

And he also asks Timothy "to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6). All Scripture is didactic according to 2 Tim 3:16-17, and that would include Acts. Epistles tell us doctrine, but Acts provides historical accounts ILLUSTRATING the practice of those doctrines. And what do we find there? What kind of gift was USUALLY, in those days, transferred via the laying on of hands? Spirit-inspired speech (prophetic utterance). He tells Timothy to preach the Word in and out of season. Evangelism is biblically defined as prophetic utterance, I myself have a couple of exegetical proofs on this idea (the links are in point 7 of my summary of objections to Sola Scriptura).

The laying on of hands might for us, today, be a trivial ceremony, but when it was recorded Scripture, it was potentially a momentous event - ordination to leadership or prophetic ministry: Example

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wise! om, for Moses had laid his hands upon him : so the people of Israel obeyed him, and did as the Lore! had commanded Moses (Deut 34: 9).

Indeed Moses transferred the Spirit of prophecy from his own body to 70 elders:

"Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again."

And thus:

"When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all" (Acts 19).

Here's a Wikipedia comment on Timothy:

"The Apostle Paul met him during his second missionary journey and he became Paul's companion and co-worker along with Silas. The New Testament indicates that Timothy traveled with Paul the Apostle, who was also his mentor."

Does that sound like the average believer to you? Or does it have the earmarks of a Moses-Joshua relationship? Do you think that Paul traveled with, and personally mentored, just any old average believer? Consider this. When writing to the Corinthians, here is how Paul described his traveling companions:

"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena."

Ordinary believers - believers without any special anointing - were not expected to travel with Paul preaching the gospel and planting churches. Timothy was no ordinary believer.

So here's why the burden of proof falls on you. You advocates of Sola Scriptura want to adduce this passage as the bedrock of your position. And yet the epistle was written to a single individual !!! Not to any of the churches !!!

Again, here is what Paul commanded the church:

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy" (1Cor 14:1).
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And let's remember that it is a passage NOT addressed to the church - it was addressed to one man, arguably a prophet. And even where it says that Scripture is profitable it is talking about the OT, not the NT.

No. Peter regarded Paul's written works as Scripture.

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) (KJV).

"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) (NIV).

"speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) (NLT).
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I understand you'd like to shift the burden of proof, but let's be clear on something. All I need to demonstrate is the frequent ambiguity of Scripture because every obscure passage reinforces our need for Direct Revelation to comprehend it reliably. After all, all of us are aware of one, and only one, potentially infallible expositor of the text - and that is Direct Revelation. Moving on.

In most epistles, Paul's general designation for believers is "the saints". And yet twice when referring to Timothy he writes like this:

"But you, man of God, flee from all this" (1 tim 6:11")

The Greek phrase for "man of God", per Meyer's commentary, "is mostly understood by expositors to denote those entrusted with the office of evangelist".

And in the OT, that phrase commonly designated a prophet.

And he also asks Timothy "to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6). All Scripture is didactic according to 2 Tim 3:16-17, and that would include Acts. Epistles tell us doctrine, but Acts provides historical accounts ILLUSTRATING the practice of those doctrines. And what do we find there? What kind of gift was USUALLY, in those days, transferred via the laying on of hands? Spirit-inspired speech (prophetic utterance). He tells Timothy to preach the Word in and out of season. Evangelism is biblically defined as prophetic utterance, I myself have a couple of exegetical proofs on this idea (the links are in point 7 of my summary of objections to Sola Scriptura).

The laying on of hands might for us, today, be a trivial ceremony, but when it was recorded Scripture, it was potentially a momentous event - ordination to leadership or prophetic ministry: Example

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wise! om, for Moses had laid his hands upon him : so the people of Israel obeyed him, and did as the Lore! had commanded Moses (Deut 34: 9).

Indeed Moses transferred the Spirit of prophecy from his own body to 70 elders:

"Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took some of the power of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied—but did not do so again."

And thus:

"When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all" (Acts 19).

Here's a Wikipedia comment on Timothy:

"The Apostle Paul met him during his second missionary journey and he became Paul's companion and co-worker along with Silas. The New Testament indicates that Timothy traveled with Paul the Apostle, who was also his mentor."

Does that sound like the average believer to you? Or does it have the earmarks of a Moses-Joshua relationship? Do you think that Paul traveled with, and personally mentored, just any old average believer? Consider this. When writing to the Corinthians, here is how Paul described his traveling companions:

"For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena."

Ordinary believers - believers without any special anointing - were not expected to travel with Paul preaching the gospel and planting churches. Timothy was no ordinary believer.

So here's why the burden of proof falls on you. You advocates of Sola Scriptura want to adduce this passage as the bedrock of your position. And yet the epistle was written to a single individual !!! Not to any of the churches !!!

Again, here is what Paul commanded the church:

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy" (1Cor 14:1).

I would like to encourage you, friend. Every time you see a verse that we want to discuss so as to discover the truth of it, I would encourage you to try read the whole chapter in light of the verse you are reading, and or at least read the words preceding it. All the words flow together and are connected. You should also do a keyword search on how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture, too.

For example:
In another place in NT Scripture we read this involving the words
"the man of God":

1 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."​

So you want me to believe that Paul switches to talking exclusively to prophets in verse 11 here when there is no indication that he has made such a switch or change in hs conversation of such. The context is not talking about prophets or those who have the prophetic gift.

Verse 7 says "we." It says "we" (believers) have brought nothing into this world, and we can bring nothing out of it. This is the whole thrust of the theme of not chasing after riches and to instead chase after godliness. So are only prophets supposed to not chase after riches and to chase after godliness? Where in the context do we get a clue that this is in reference to a prophet? I do not see that here at all. Paul does not distinguish between how a prophet is to flee riches and yet your average Christian can chase after riches. Paul says that they that be rich fall into temptation and pierce themselves through with many sorrows. He is referring generically to all.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."...All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to be perfect and complete unto all good works. Not some good works. But all good works. No oral Words of God alone (or some other informational communication by God) were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.
Whoa slow down a bit there, buddy. I've already discoursed profusely on the distinction between the divine Word and the written Word, for example at post 328.

"The Word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision [speaking promises]" (Gen 15:1).

That's the spoken Word that you are referring to? Which you insinuate to be insufficient? You do realize, don't you, that the divine Word is God Himself? I take it you regard it as insufficient? Let's be clear on something. Even a casual reading of Heb 11 should convince you that spiritual maturity was possible before the canon. Your posts continually insinuate that I deprecate the written Word. What you fail to understand is that Sola Scriptura is a bibliolatry that elevates the written Word at the expense of deprecating the spoken Word (God Himself).

Secondly, the passage doesn't teach that Scripture makes a person complete, or is sufficient to make a man complete, but merely that it is profitable to that goal. And in what sense profitable? It's not clear. MY understanding is that it's profitable precisely in the sense of pointing us toward Direct Revelation and advising us how to nurture and cultivate such spirituality.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?​
Whoa, slow down there buddy. Wrong metaphysics. That passage isn't talking about the written Word. It's talking about the divine Word descending down from heaven in material ingestible form.

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."".

"Take this bread, and eat it, this is my body".

"They drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

This thread really isn't the place for a discussion of metaphysics - but I mention it since you adduced that passage.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I would like to encourage you, friend. Every time you see a verse that we want to discuss so as to discover the truth of it, I would encourage you to try read the whole chapter in light of the verse you are reading, and or at least read the words preceding it. All the words flow together and are connected. You should also do a keyword search on how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture, too.

For example:
In another place in NT Scripture we read this involving the words
"the man of God":

1 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."​

So you want me to believe that Paul switches to talking exclusively to prophets in verse 11 here when there is no indication that he has made such a switch or change in hs conversation of such. The context is not talking about prophets or those who have the prophetic gift.

Verse 7 says "we." It says "we" (believers) have brought nothing into this world, and we can bring nothing out of it. This is the whole thrust of the theme of not chasing after riches and to instead chase after godliness. So are only prophets supposed to not chase after riches and to chase after godliness? Where in the context do we get a clue that this is in reference to a prophet? I do not see that here at all. Paul does not distinguish between how a prophet is to flee riches and yet your average Christian can chase after riches. Paul says that they that be rich fall into temptation and pierce themselves through with many sorrows. He is referring generically to all.
Non-sequitur. I am not saying that NOTHING in Timothy HAS ANY RELEVANCE to the average believer. Obviously, since we are all Christians, every book of the Bible has some pertinence to us. But that epistle wasn't written to the church. It was written to Timothy, which places a HUGE burden of proof on the Sola Scriptura movement, to adduce it as the bedrock of their position.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Curious - since you want to assume that such a passage, directed to an individual, is for the whole church, do you feel the same way about this one:

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you" (John 16).

That passage is about Direct Revelation. Is that for the whole church?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Non-sequitur. I am not saying that NOTHING in Timothy HAS ANY RELEVANCE to the average believer. Obviously, since we are all Christians, every book of the Bible has some pertinence to us. But that epistle wasn't written to the church. It was written to Timothy, which places a HUGE burden of proof on the Sola Scriptura movement, to adduce it as the bedrock of their position.

Context is key:

If you were to keep reading, it says this:

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." (2 Timothy 4:1-2).​

The word "thee" means "you-all" or "everyone" in the King James Bible.

So Paul is telling Timothy that he charges ALL believers before God the Father, and Jesus Christ (the Son) to preach the Word, and to reprove, exhort, with long suffering in doctrine. Otherwise, there is no need for you to teach doctrine out of the Bible. 2 Timothy 4:1-2 is connected to 2 Timothy 3:16-17. While God intended there to be chapter and verse numbers in the Bible later on, in the original text, they were not there. So these two passages are connected together and should be read as a whole.
 
Upvote 0

JAL

Veteran
Site Supporter
Oct 16, 2004
10,777
928
Visit site
✟343,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But do you believe an audible voice still happens for other believers today? Surely if God is going to continue in the same way, then why is He not speaking to you in an audible way? If He speaks in an audible way to other believers that you know, then have you ever asked them that they did the 1 John 4:1-3 test with the voice they are talking with? If they have not then they are not acting in biblical accordance with testing the spirits to see whether they are of God or not.
What is of import is how distinct("loud and clear") are the revelations, whether linguistic or visual, not whether they are sonic in the usual sense. (Is a voice heard in a dream or vision sonic? Is it audible? Again, those distinctions break down). Immature believers (like myself) tend to be saddled with indistinct revelations - revelations that are not particularly loud and clear. This kind of distinction is plain enough from Num 12:8-10.

Here's the problem with distinct revelations - here's why it's not easy to get them. A distinct revelation is tantamount to God speaking face to face with you. The upshot is that if you offend Him in any way, He is likely to break out in judgment against you. Yahweh hasn't changed - Christians are mistaken to think we are under a new dispensation. The Corinthians themselves were dying, in OT fashion, for judgment upon their profanity of the Last Supper. That's why Paul reminded them, in 1Cor 10, that all the OT examples of judgment serve as warnings to us.

God put it to Moses like this, "For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you.

And that's why, in the OT, not everyone was a prophet. You don't get to this level automatically. HOWEVER, God is less prone to anger - and there tends to be less sin - when there is a community of godly people who are jointly rising toward that office. What I am saying is this. Gods plan is for all congregations of believers to JOINTLY PUSH in the direction of Direct Revelation as to gradually produce godly communities that serve as fertile ground for the raising up of apostles and prophets. The PROBLEM is that the Sola Scriptura mentality has been pushing us in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION for 2,000 years. And since the church is thus not a fertile ground for a community of prophets, it becomes harder for ANY of us (such as myself) to obtain such grace.

Even though God's people have generally failed to push forward in the right direction, there have been a couple of times in history where He graciously outpoured a huge amount of grace and prophetic anointings - 2 especially great revivals in history (setting aside the minor ones for a moment)
(1) The era of Moses and Joshua.
(2) The apostolic period begun at Pentecost.

Hope that helps answer your question.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Curious - since you want to assume that such a passage, directed to an individual, is for the whole church, do you feel the same way about this one:

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you" (John 16).

That passage is about Direct Revelation. Is that for the whole church?

Again, I believe in a term I invented called "Gloria Scriptura." This means all minor information or outside sources of info., or the working of God to open a believer's eyes, the inward witness, the leading of the Spirit to understand Scripture, a pure conscience with God guiding us, the creation witnessing of God's existence, the speaking of words by the Holy Spirit during times of martyrdom (in Mark 13:11) are all to uplift and glorify what God's Word already says. They are secondary forms of information, or God working to give glorification to what His Word (the Bible) says.

John 16:13-15 does apply to us but in a different way. I believe for the faithful Christian today, John 16:13-15 is referring to how we can be guided by the Spirit to understand the truths in our Bible. That is how I understand that passage as applying to believers today. This is not in conflict with "Gloria Scriptura." Now, we also do need to keep in mind that this passage had an application for the apostles that did not exactly apply to us in the same exact way as it does for us today. We have a complete Bible. The apostles did not have a complete Bible. For they were forming it. So John 16:13-15 for the apostles would be that the Spirit would guide some of them into the formation of Scripture, and or to learn of God's ways in the formation of the early church.
 
Upvote 0