What did Jesus mean in John 3 by "the Kingdom of God?"

Francis Drake · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
That is a theory. I am not sure it is true though. If true, why was "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous went back then? Why did they not go straight to heaven?

Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven, the eternal home of the righteous by faith. Both Paradise, and Abraham's bosom refer to Heaven.

There's a load of spiritual gems in the passages about Abraham's bosom, yet you pick out the one item that's not actually there! But that's what happens when you get indoctrinated with false narratives, you strain the gnat and swallow a camel!

Lk16v19“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.

The reason Jesus introduces Abraham to the story is because of this,-

Rom4v3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Abraham's righteousness was based on faith in God, not following the Law of Moses. Likewise the beggar.
Thus the beggar, a complete nobody, is held by God in the same light as Abraham.

Abraham is called the "father of faith" and not just for Jews, but Gentiles also. So although the terminology is not generally used, when we gentiles die, we shall also go to Abraham's bosom, home to heaven.

You may need to look at the very basics of the doctrines you have blithely accepted as true. When you examine them, you will find many have very shaky foundations, and are supported by nothing more than church tradition.

Here's just one example of how things are widely accepted without question.-

If I asked you to read out the first verse of the New Testament, where would you start?
It's a certainty that most would turn to the following verse,-
Matthew 1v1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:...…….

Am I right?
But you would be completely wrong. In fact right up to the end, Jesus was teaching and ministering Old Covenant principles to an Old Covenant people who lived and breathed Old Covenant thinking.
Virtually everything in the Gospels that we regularly call "New Testament", is actually Old Testament stuff, Jesus was simply expounding what it really meant if they thought they obtain their righteousness by observing the Law of Moses

Now turn to Matthew26v 28For this is My blood of the Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew26v28 is the start of the new Covenant, not Matthew1v1. If that doesn't challenge your thinking, nothing does.

eleos1954 · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God."

I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven.

The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God."

I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven.

Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints?
Thanks for your input.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

Some of the saints were resurrected to heaven after Jesus was resurrected (a mini example of what will happen when He returns and the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) who are sleeping (dormant) in the grave. Who all that was, is not specifically stated.

Paradise is where God lives ... His sanctuary in heaven.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

The tree of life is in heaven.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2
Berean Study Bible
down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The saints in the OT were saved the same way we are .... by their faith in the promise of the Messiah to come.

When the Lord returns He will resurrect (from the grave where all wait) the remainder of the saints and take them to heaven for the 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. (2nd resurrection of the lost)

The 3 heavens

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly. Remember in Genesis, when God created a heaven between the waters? That's the atmosphere. You’ll also remember that in 2 Peter, the apostle writes the “heavens shall dissolve”? It's talking about the first heaven, the atmosphere around the earth, and not where God dwells.

The second heaven, then, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. When Paul writes he was caught up to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2, he’s referring to paradise, the very dwelling place of God—such as when we pray, “Our Father who art in heaven.”

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

eleos1954 said:
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

Some of the saints were resurrected to heaven after Jesus was resurrected (a mini example of what will happen when He returns and the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) who are sleeping (dormant) in the grave. Who all that was, is not specifically stated.

Paradise is where God lives ... His sanctuary in heaven.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

The tree of life is in heaven.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2
Berean Study Bible
down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

The saints in the OT were saved the same way we are .... by their faith in the promise of the Messiah to come.

When the Lord returns He will resurrect (from the grave where all wait) the remainder of the saints and take them to heaven for the 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:4-6

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. (2nd resurrection of the lost)

The 3 heavens

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly. Remember in Genesis, when God created a heaven between the waters? That's the atmosphere. You’ll also remember that in 2 Peter, the apostle writes the “heavens shall dissolve”? It's talking about the first heaven, the atmosphere around the earth, and not where God dwells.

The second heaven, then, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. When Paul writes he was caught up to the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:2, he’s referring to paradise, the very dwelling place of God—such as when we pray, “Our Father who art in heaven.”

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. No, it is not a parable, it is a real story, with people's NAMES. Even if it was a parable - which it isn't - what was said would be TRUTH.

Paradise is where God lives ... His sanctuary in heaven. It is now.

which is in the paradise of God.’ The tree of life is in heaven This is after the cross.

The saints in the OT were saved the same way we are .... by their faith in the promise of the Messiah to come. This does not answer the question: Could they be "born again" before Jesus rose from the dead?

Francis Drake · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. No, it is not a parable, it is a real story, with people's NAMES. Even if it was a parable - which it isn't - what was said would be TRUTH.

Paradise is where God lives ... His sanctuary in heaven. It is now.

Correct.

which is in the paradise of God.’ The tree of life is in heaven This is after the cross.

Certainly the Tree of Life is in heaven, but that was from the beginning, not just after the cross.

The saints in the OT were saved the same way we are .... by their faith in the promise of the Messiah to come.

Yet more religious tradition.
The OT saints were not saved by promise of a Messiah to come, but saved by their faith in the present tense God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (who, despite their complete ignorance of the fact, would be the Messiah to come)

This does not answer the question: Could they be "born again" before Jesus rose from the dead?

If it wasn't for the ramming home of false teaching, nobody reading Jn3 would come up with the conclusion that OT believers were not born again. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Answer the simple question of how spiritually dead people in the OT could do the amazing miracles they did, and write the amazing scriptures they did?

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven, the eternal home of the righteous by faith. Both Paradise, and Abraham's bosom refer to Heaven.

There's a load of spiritual gems in the passages about Abraham's bosom, yet you pick out the one item that's not actually there! But that's what happens when you get indoctrinated with false narratives, you strain the gnat and swallow a camel!

Lk16v19“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.

The reason Jesus introduces Abraham to the story is because of this,-

Rom4v3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Abraham's righteousness was based on faith in God, not following the Law of Moses. Likewise the beggar.
Thus the beggar, a complete nobody, is held by God in the same light as Abraham.

Abraham is called the "father of faith" and not just for Jews, but Gentiles also. So although the terminology is not generally used, when we gentiles die, we shall also go to Abraham's bosom, home to heaven.

You may need to look at the very basics of the doctrines you have blithely accepted as true. When you examine them, you will find many have very shaky foundations, and are supported by nothing more than church tradition.

Here's just one example of how things are widely accepted without question.-

If I asked you to read out the first verse of the New Testament, where would you start?
It's a certainty that most would turn to the following verse,-
Matthew 1v1The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:...…….

Am I right?
But you would be completely wrong. In fact right up to the end, Jesus was teaching and ministering Old Covenant principles to an Old Covenant people who lived and breathed Old Covenant thinking.
Virtually everything in the Gospels that we regularly call "New Testament", is actually Old Testament stuff, Jesus was simply expounding what it really meant if they thought they obtain their righteousness by observing the Law of Moses

Now turn to Matthew26v 28For this is My blood of the Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew26v28 is the start of the new Covenant, not Matthew1v1. If that doesn't challenge your thinking, nothing does.

Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven Sorry but where Lazarus went does not seem to be heaven. The rich man in hell could see him.

when you get indoctrinated with false narratives Are you saying that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a false narrative? I really hope not!

The first verse of The New Testament is certainly matthew 1:1. If you had said "new covenanat" it would be something else. The New Covenant was not established until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.

Old Testament saints knew they would go DOWN after death:

Gen. 37:35 AMP Then all his sons and daughters attempted to console him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “I will go down to Sheol (the place of the dead) in mourning for my son.” And his father wept for him.

2 Sam. 22:6 AMP “The cords of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.

Ps. 88:3 AMP For my soul is full of troubles, And my life draws near the grave (Sheol, the place of the dead).

This is just a few of many. What did Peter say in Acts 2?

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus had said, "this day I will be with you in paradise," but Peter said that He would be in hell, but would not be LEFT in hell.

A web site said it so well I will paste: "In the Old Testament, Sheol is the place of the souls of the dead, both the righteous (like Jacob, Genesis 37:35, and Samuel, 1 Samuel 28:13–14) and the wicked (Psalm 31:17). In the New Testament, the Hebrew word Sheol is translated as Hades, and the description of Sheol in the Old and New Testaments bears some resemblance to the Hades of Greek mythology. It is under the earth (Numbers 16:30–33), and it is like a city with gates (Isaiah 38:10) and bars (Job 17:16). It is a land of darkness — a place where shades, the shadowy souls of men, dwell (Isaiah 14:9; 26:14)"

You may need to RETHINK some of your doctrine!

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Correct.

Certainly the Tree of Life is in heaven, but that was from the beginning, not just after the cross.

Yet more religious tradition.
The OT saints were not saved by promise of a Messiah to come, but saved by their faith in the present tense God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (who, despite their complete ignorance of the fact, would be the Messiah to come)

If it wasn't for the ramming home of false teaching, nobody reading Jn3 would come up with the conclusion that OT believers were not born again. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Answer the simple question of how spiritually dead people in the OT could do the amazing miracles they did, and write the amazing scriptures they did?

Perhaps it is your own perspective that is off here.

How did OT people perform miracles? It is SO EASY I am amazed that you missed it: they were ANOINTED by the Holy Spirit. That would be the Holy Spirit UPON, not within. No one could have the Holy Spirit within until Jesus rose from the dead so God could create NEW Human spirits for those that love Jesus.

Let me guess: you have bypassed Acts 1 and 2 in your Christian walk. Right?

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

Dave L said:
Abel was born again. Job and Abraham too.
Last day = end of the world.
70 weeks ended with Stephen's being stoned by the Pharisees.

This is all just personal theory unless you can prove each point by scripture NOT pulled from its context and correctly understood.

eleos1954 · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. No, it is not a parable, it is a real story, with people's NAMES. Even if it was a parable - which it isn't - what was said would be TRUTH.

Paradise is where God lives ... His sanctuary in heaven. It is now.

It always has been.

Hebrews 8:2
New Living Translation
There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands.

The earthly sanctuary was a "pattern" of the heavenly.

Exodus 25:9
You must make the tabernacle and design all its furnishings according to the pattern I will show you.

which is in the paradise of God.’ The tree of life is in heaven This is after the cross.

The tree of life was in the garden before the fall.

Genesis 3:24
New Living Translation
After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

The saints in the OT were saved the same way we are .... by their faith in the promise of the Messiah to come. This does not answer the question: Could they be "born again" before Jesus rose from the dead?

Being born again is having faith in God/Jesus (the promise) ....

can you be born again without faith? Nope ... did people in the OT have faith in God and in the promise of the coming Messiah? Yes.

John 8:56 - Jesus speaking
New Living Translation
Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”

Francis Drake · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven Sorry but where Lazarus went does not seem to be heaven. The rich man in hell could see him.

It might not seem to be heaven to you, but it is.
The rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, but it was from afar, and there was a great chasm between them, just like heaven and hell.
Luke16v23And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom...…..
......26And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those desiring to pass from here to you are not able, nor can they pass from there to us.’

when you get indoctrinated with false narratives Are you saying that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a false narrative? I really hope not!

I never said the story was a false narrative, just your understanding around the story.

The first verse of The New Testament is certainly matthew 1:1. If you had said "new covenanat" it would be something else. The New Covenant was not established until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.

Check your bible translations, Testament means Covenant means Testament.

Old Testament saints knew they would go DOWN after death:

Gen. 37:35 AMP Then all his sons and daughters attempted to console him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “I will go down to Sheol (the place of the dead) in mourning for my son.” And his father wept for him.

2 Sam. 22:6 AMP “The cords of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.

Ps. 88:3 AMP For my soul is full of troubles, And my life draws near the grave (Sheol, the place of the dead).

This is just a few of many. What did Peter say in Acts 2?

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Peter is actually saying that Jesus did NOT go to hades, therefore he must have gone to Paradise -as told to the thief.

Jesus had said, "this day I will be with you in paradise," but Peter said that He would be in hell, but would not be LEFT in hell.

This is the literal translation of what Peter said, and it says Jesus didn't go to Hades.
Acts2v31Having foreseen, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned into Hades, nor did His flesh see decay.

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Being born again is having faith in God/Jesus (the promise) ....

can you be born again without faith? Nope ... did people in the OT have faith in God and in the promise of the coming Messiah? Yes.

John 8:56 - Jesus speaking
New Living Translation
Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”

Being born again is having the old spirit person PUT TO DEATH (The wages of sin is death) and then having a NEW Human spirit created: "on the spot" as the military says. It is a REAL spiritual birth created by the Holy Spirit. Yes, I agree, it can only happen through FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Yes, the Old Testament saints DID have faith. But my question was, could they be born again BEFORE Christ rose from the dead. Could the Holy Spirit accomplish a new birth before Christ?
If so, then there would have been no need for the story of the rich man and Lazarus. And the Old Testament saints would have said that upon death they would go UP, not down.

Didn't Paul say if Christ did not rise, then we would still be in our sins?

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

Francis Drake said:
It might not seem to be heaven to you, but it is.
The rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, but it was from afar, and there was a great chasm between them, just like heaven and hell.
Luke16v23And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom...…..
......26And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those desiring to pass from here to you are not able, nor can they pass from there to us.’

I never said the story was a false narrative, just your understanding around the story.

Check your bible translations, Testament means Covenant means Testament.

Peter is actually saying that Jesus did NOT go to hades, therefore he must have gone to Paradise -as told to the thief.

This is the literal translation of what Peter said, and it says Jesus didn't go to Hades.
Acts2v31Having foreseen, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned into Hades, nor did His flesh see decay.

The rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus, but it was from afar, and there was a great chasm between them, just like heaven and hell. Sorry, NO ONE can see from the center of the earth (hell) up to heaven. No one can see heaven from the surface of the earth! I would have to say this theory is myth.

I never said the story was a false narrative, just your understanding around the story. No, you called it a parable AS IF it was not really true or we could not trust what it was saying.

Check your bible translations, Testament means Covenant means Testament. So give a bible to a beginning reader and ask then to look in the table of contents and find the first page of the New Testament. I know what you were trying to say: the New Covenant could not begin until Jesus blood was shed. Everyone knows a last will and testament is not in effect UNTIL the death of the Testator. Paul said as much.

Peter is actually saying that Jesus did NOT go to hades, therefore he must have gone to Paradise -as told to the thief. Sorry, read Peter again. He said Jesus would not be LEFT or Abandoned in hell. That means He was there, but only temporarily.

eleos1954 · Apr 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Being born again is having the old spirit person PUT TO DEATH (The wages of sin is death) and then having a NEW Human spirit created: "on the spot" as the military says. It is a REAL spiritual birth created by the Holy Spirit. Yes, I agree, it can only happen through FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Yes, the Old Testament saints DID have faith. But my question was, could they be born again BEFORE Christ rose from the dead. Could the Holy Spirit accomplish a new birth before Christ?
If so, then there would have been no need for the story of the rich man and Lazarus. And the Old Testament saints would have said that upon death they would go UP, not down.

Didn't Paul say if Christ did not rise, then we would still be in our sins?

Born again ... or born from above is a spiritual relationship with God .... people in the OT days and in the NT days having a spiritual relationship with God were/are born again.

There is ONE God. The trinity has always been (before creation) and will always be (throughout eternity). All three working together, from before creation, through creation and throughout eternity.

OT people had faith in Jesus. They were made aware Messiah was coming. They had a spiritual relationship with God/Jesus. They knew salvation (eternal life) would be through the Messiah.

If so, then there would have been no need for the story of the rich man and Lazarus. And the Old Testament saints would have said that upon death they would go UP, not down.

Good point (it is a parable) .... and what did the OT saints believe? They believed they rest (dormant) in the grave until they are resurrected ... on the last day.

Don't forget Jesus taught from the OT.

State of the Dead

Psalm 90:3-6

You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew.

Job 7:21

"Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10-12

"But man dies and lies prostrate Man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:2

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Mark 5:39

And entering in, He said to them, "Why make a commotion and weep? The child has not died, but is asleep."

Luke 8:52-53

Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him, knowing that she had died.

1 Kings 2:10

Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

Deuteronomy 31:16

The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12

"When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son Rehoboam reigned in his place.

1 Kings 14:20

The time that Jeroboam reigned was twenty-two years; and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his place.

1 Kings 16:6

And Baasha slept with his fathers and was buried in Tirzah, and Elah his son became king in his place.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers and was buried with his fathers in the city of his father David, and Jehoram his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 14:16

So Jehoash slept with his fathers and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 15:7

And Azariah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David, and Jotham his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 16:20

So Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David; and his son Hezekiah reigned in his place.

2 Kings 20:21

So Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and Manasseh his son became king in his place.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place.

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

John 11:11-14

This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.

Acts 7:60

Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Job 14:13-15

"Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands.

Psalm 17:15

As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake.

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Jeremiah 51:57

"I will make her princes and her wise men drunk, Her governors, her prefects and her mighty men, That they may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," Declares the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 7:3-5

O LORD my God, if I have done this, If there is injustice in my hands, If I have rewarded evil to my friend, Or have plundered him who without cause was my adversary, Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it; And let him trample my life down to the ground And lay my glory in the dust. Selah.

Psalm 76:5

The stouthearted were plundered, They sank into sleep; And none of the warriors could use his hands.

Jeremiah 51:39

"When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up," declares the LORD.

Didn't Paul say if Christ did not rise, then we would still be in our sins?

Yes He did ... Christ died once for ALL .... for ALL time.

"Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin ONCE: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God."

Romans 6:9-10, KJV

"But this man, [Jesus] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did ONCE, when he offered up himself."
Hebrews 7:24-27, KJV

Yes ... the wages of sin is death .... and Jesus defeated death for all for all time.

and those sleeping (waiting) in the grave will live again for eternity.

iamlamad · Apr 16, 2020

eleos1954 said:
Born again ... or born from above is a spiritual relationship with God .... people in the OT days and in the NT days having a spiritual relationship with God were/are born again.

There is ONE God. The trinity has always been (before creation) and will always be (throughout eternity). All three working together, from before creation, through creation and throughout eternity.

OT people had faith in Jesus. They were made aware Messiah was coming. They had a spiritual relationship with God/Jesus. They knew salvation (eternal life) would be through the Messiah.

Good point (it is a parable) .... and what did the OT saints believe? They believed they rest (dormant) in the grave until they are resurrected ... on the last day.

Don't forget Jesus taught from the OT.

State of the Dead
...
Yes He did ... Christ died once for ALL .... for ALL time.
...
Romans 6:9-10, KJV

"But this man, [Jesus] because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did ONCE, when he offered up himself."
Hebrews 7:24-27, KJV

Yes ... the wages of sin is death .... and Jesus defeated death for all for all time.

and those sleeping (waiting) in the grave will live again for eternity.

State of the Dead:
Genesis 37:35
And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Psalm 30:3
O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Proverbs 1:12
Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

This is what Old Covenant saints thought about death and the grave (Sheol): It was DOWN, not up. It is translated either as Hell or the grave.

Maybe we should back up and ask WHY Jesus went down to Hades? Could have have just gone to heaven? No, at that time death meant DOWN, down to shoel.

In the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which spirits of the dead go. Sheol is also called Hades.

"Sheol, " refers to the grave or the abode of the dead ( Psalms 88:3 Psalms 88:5 ). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal ( Psalms 49:12 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:20 ), whether righteous or wicked ( Eccl 9:2-3 ). No one could avoid Sheol ( Psalm 49:9 ; 89:48 ), which was thought to be down in the lowest parts of the earth ( Deut 32:22 ; 1 Sam 28:11-15 ; Job 26:5 ; Psalm 86:13 ; Isa 7:11 ; Ezekiel 31:14-16 Ezekiel 31:18 ). (What is Sheol and Where is it? Bible Meaning and Definition)

The truth is, because Satan was as is he god of this world, he could hold all spirits captive in sheol. Jesus had no choice: if He were going to destroy death, he had to go where death was. No spirit had EVER up to this time escaped from Sheol. Oh, sure, some were resurrected in the Old Testament, but only to die again. NO ONE, EVER escaped from Satan's prison for the spirits of past humans. However, God in His Mercy divided Sheol into two compartments. One was HOT: it wass torment and it was where the rich man was sent. The other place was not hot and was not torture. It was Abraham's bosom.

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Notice this is when Jesus first went DOWN to sheol. It was there He found "captivity." He "led" captivity. Where? Where did He go? To heaven.

From the web: Johnsnotes:
They were looking forward to the promised sacrifice. However, until that sacrifice had actually been offered - that is the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, they could not be released. After Jesus had sacrificed Himself, He went down into Hades and in some way took the righteous from Hades with Him into heaven. He took captivity captive and they became the captives of Jesus and of righteousness.

AllDayFaith · Apr 16, 2020

JIMINZ said:
Verification?

Just read some of David's Psalms.

JIMINZ · Apr 17, 2020

First you say this about the Old Testament Prophets.

AllDayFaith said:
Some of the OT prophets spoke about Jesus and they often called Him Savior.

Then you say.

AllDayFaith said:
Just read some of David's Psalms.

This isn't some of the Old Testament Prophets, it is King David, it would be nice to know which specific Psalms your referring to, rather than playing seek and find.

If you cannot back up your statements with Scripture why don't you just say so, it's ok.

JIMINZ · Apr 17, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven, the eternal home of the righteous by faith. Both Paradise, and Abraham's bosom refer to Heaven.

I do not understand how, "Abraham's bosom is simply a metaphor for heaven"
because, the Jews did not have Salvation offered to them as we do, they were under the Law.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom. 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

1 Cor. 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Rom. 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The Jews only had one day a year when they would be forgiven their sins, The Day of Atonement.

The Jews were not considered to be Righteous under the Law.
The Law does not bring or produce Righteousness in the life of a person.

Therefore those in Abraham's Bosom were not Righteous, and they were not in Heaven as you suppose.

Dave L · Apr 17, 2020

iamlamad said:
This is all just personal theory unless you can prove each point by scripture NOT pulled from its context and correctly understood.

Hebrews 11 lists many born again from Eden on. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and all of these had faith.

iamlamad · Apr 17, 2020

Dave L said:
Hebrews 11 lists many born again from Eden on. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and all of these had faith.

Sorry, it only tells us they had faith. It did not say they were born again.

Dave L · Apr 17, 2020

iamlamad said:
Sorry, it only tells us they had faith. It did not say they were born again.

Faith is the result of having a circumcised heart/the New Birth.

AllDayFaith · Apr 17, 2020

JIMINZ said:
If you cannot back up your statements with Scripture why don't you just say so, it's ok.

Isaiah 43:1 “I, even I, am the Lord,
And there is no savior besides Me.

What did Jesus mean in John 3 by "the Kingdom of God?"

Returning adventurer.

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