Earth is Flat

tryphena rose said:

Firstly, this post was in the Christian section before it was moved to the non-christian section, by what I assume were moderators. Thus, I can logically still intend my words to be for those with ears to hear, proverbially. Primarily Christians.

Feel free to refute any of what I said on my first post. There are an abundance of flat earth, firmament, verses in the bible that will completely dismiss any notion of an ever-expanding universe or a globe earth. This is the sole reason for my confidence. The two world views being talked about here, when it comes to cosmology, are diametrically opposed to another. Only one can be true, and my God is no liar. If you don't have anything of substance to offer a bible believing Christian, then that is fine and you forfeit any argument, in my eyes.

I only address you because you spoke of God's word, but if you can't do as I ask and refute me using God's word, then this is where the conversation ends. And that is completely fine with me, I have zero qualms with anyone who disagrees with me based on worldly knowledge.

Click to expand...

Where do you think rain comes from?

tryphena rose said:

Firstly, this post was in the Christian section before it was moved to the non-christian section, by what I assume were moderators. Thus, I can logically still intend my words to be for those with ears to hear, proverbially. Primarily Christians.

Feel free to refute any of what I said on my first post. There are an abundance of flat earth, firmament, verses in the bible that will completely dismiss any notion of an ever-expanding universe or a globe earth. This is the sole reason for my confidence. The two world views being talked about here, when it comes to cosmology, are diametrically opposed to another. Only one can be true, and my God is no liar. If you don't have anything of substance to offer a bible believing Christian, then that is fine and you forfeit any argument, in my eyes.

I only address you because you spoke of God's word, but if you can't do as I ask and refute me using God's word, then this is where the conversation ends. And that is completely fine with me, I have zero qualms with anyone who disagrees with me based on worldly knowledge.

Click to expand...

Yes, only the mods can move a thread. It appears that your fellow Christians do not take this topic seriously. Which means that they disagree strongly with your interpretation of the Bible. That means that you would have to go outside of the Bible to support your beliefs to show that they have any validity. And yes, the Bible can be interpreted in the way that you mentioned. The question is are those claims supported by reality? And do you know how we test those ideas? By applying the scientific method properly.

By the way, God does not have to be a liar for your interpretations to be false. Much of the Bible is poetic. That does not make it a lie if it is not literally true. In fact since the evidence goes against your claims and that massive evidence would have to be the work of God you are ironically calling God a liar by insisting on the Flat Earth in spite of the evidence to the contrary. Claiming that God planted false evidence to fool people sounds like blasphemy to me.

tryphena rose said:

Firstly, this post was in the Christian section before it was moved to the non-christian section, by what I assume were moderators. Thus, I can logically still intend my words to be for those with ears to hear, proverbially. Primarily Christians.

Feel free to refute any of what I said on my first post. There are an abundance of flat earth, firmament, verses in the bible that will completely dismiss any notion of an ever-expanding universe or a globe earth. This is the sole reason for my confidence. The two world views being talked about here, when it comes to cosmology, are diametrically opposed to another. Only one can be true, and my God is no liar. If you don't have anything of substance to offer a bible believing Christian, then that is fine and you forfeit any argument, in my eyes.

I only address you because you spoke of God's word, but if you can't do as I ask and refute me using God's word, then this is where the conversation ends. And that is completely fine with me, I have zero qualms with anyone who disagrees with me based on worldly knowledge.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that you do not take literally. Jesus said that he was a door... you don't take that literally... and Jesus didn't clarify that with "This is meant poetically" either.
You don't cut off your hand or rip out your eyes... even when they cause you to sin. I haven't seen many one-handed, one-eyed Christians out there.
You don't sell all you have, give it to the poor and follow Jesus. Most Christians I know... even the Flat Earthers, live quite comfortably, well above the poor, and they certainly have the means to use the modern technology they need to promote their worldview.

And in contrast to the verses that can be interpreted to state that the earth is flat... these aren't the words of Moses, Isaiah or the poetic Psalms... these are the word of Jesus himself.

You don't take these literally.

And there are a few Bible verses that seem to support an earth in space... the Job verses about "he stretches out the north over empty space, he hanges the earth on nothing".
You don't take these verses literally either.

And there are these verses that talk about the sun rising and setting and then moving back to the place it rises again... "like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber" (Ps. 19:5) et al.
No Flat Earther I know takes these verses literally... this would mean to deny the very easily confirmable fact the the sun is always visible from some points on earth.

And finally, there is this pesky little problem of the earth as it exists in reality. All the things that can been observed, tested, computed, measured. This is the earth that God, according to your faith, created. But you have no problems of accusing God lying through his creation.

Yes, I know that it is easy to assume, at first glance, that the earth is flat, domed, limited. This is "what our senses tell us". We see the sun rise and set. This is what our senses tell us... this is what the Bible says, multiple times.

But take a look... take a look at this thread alone. Even a literalist biblical Flat Earther like Kinable knows that the sun does NOT rise and set... that this is just an optical phenomenon.

So, when you accept that there are some other methods necessary to explain what "our senses tell us"... then you already "believe science over God"... in your own words.
I'd disagree. You believe the intelligence and reason that, according to your faith, your God gave you to understand the world that you live in.

See... I am an atheist. I even agree with you that the Bible portrays a flat earth model. In my view, this is because the Bible is the word of humans... and humans can get things wrong. I am an atheist... you can ignore my views.
But there are others, Christians, devout Christians, who all agree that God does not lie.
Words are fleeting. Words are changable. Words can never really capture the whole of reality. But reality is just real.
So, these Christians have come to realize: if God's creation tells me something that has to be true, because God doesn't lie, and God's word seems to tell me something else that has to be true, because God doesn't lie... then it is much more likely that I misunderstand what God's word tells me than what God's creation tells me.

Kinable said:

The method I use is still the same as the one you want me to use. It can be applied to it, the one I used is more universal and the one taught in schools. There's nothing wrong with the Scientific Method I used, you're the only one who has a problem with it. Just because I'm not using the one you want me to use doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Click to expand...

No, your experiment failed on several levels. It was explained to you and all that you had was denial. And you cannot make up your own Scientific Method. That is not the way that it works. The way you use it only leads to failed claims.

You were asked by another poster about your math skills. Math is the language of science and it makes it very hard to do science if you do not understand math. So can you tell us what abilities that you have?

Jaxxi said:

I would consider this if on my flight from Florida to Phoenix I wasn't able to see the curve of the earth for myself but I have been high enough up to see if for myself. Its round.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 40.22 indeed speaks of the 'the circle of the earth'.

Freodin said:

There are a lot of verses in the Bible that you do not take literally. Jesus said that he was a door... you don't take that literally... and Jesus didn't clarify that with "This is meant poetically" either.
You don't cut off your hand or rip out your eyes... even when they cause you to sin. I haven't seen many one-handed, one-eyed Christians out there.
You don't sell all you have, give it to the poor and follow Jesus. Most Christians I know... even the Flat Earthers, live quite comfortably, well above the poor, and they certainly have the means to use the modern technology they need to promote their worldview.

And in contrast to the verses that can be interpreted to state that the earth is flat... these aren't the words of Moses, Isaiah or the poetic Psalms... these are the word of Jesus himself.

You don't take these literally.

And there are a few Bible verses that seem to support an earth in space... the Job verses about "he stretches out the north over empty space, he hanges the earth on nothing".
You don't take these verses literally either.

And there are these verses that talk about the sun rising and setting and then moving back to the place it rises again... "like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber" (Ps. 19:5) et al.
No Flat Earther I know takes these verses literally... this would mean to deny the very easily confirmable fact the the sun is always visible from some points on earth.

And finally, there is this pesky little problem of the earth as it exists in reality. All the things that can been observed, tested, computed, measured. This is the earth that God, according to your faith, created. But you have no problems of accusing God lying through his creation.

Yes, I know that it is easy to assume, at first glance, that the earth is flat, domed, limited. This is "what our senses tell us". We see the sun rise and set. This is what our senses tell us... this is what the Bible says, multiple times.

But take a look... take a look at this thread alone. Even a literalist biblical Flat Earther like Kinable knows that the sun does NOT rise and set... that this is just an optical phenomenon.

So, when you accept that there are some other methods necessary to explain what "our senses tell us"... then you already "believe science over God"... in your own words.
I'd disagree. You believe the intelligence and reason that, according to your faith, your God gave you to understand the world that you live in.

See... I am an atheist. I even agree with you that the Bible portrays a flat earth model. In my view, this is because the Bible is the word of humans... and humans can get things wrong. I am an atheist... you can ignore my views.
But there are others, Christians, devout Christians, who all agree that God does not lie.
Words are fleeting. Words are changable. Words can never really capture the whole of reality. But reality is just real.
So, these Christians have come to reality: if God's creation tells me something that has to be true, because God doesn't lie, and God's word seems to tell me something else that has to be true, because God doesn't lie... then it is much more likely that I misunderstand what God's word tells me than what God's creation tells me.

Click to expand...

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good." Genesis 1:6-10 KJV

In Genesis alone you can see the whole entire firmament in water, process. First there was water, then there was a firmament placed in the 'midst' of the waters, i.e. middle. From out of the waters below, he made earth to appear. How does this look by an endless universe model? Where is an endless space called 'outer space' to be found between the waters and the firmament? How could waters be held up over the earth, by anything that isn't firm? I didn't catch that part in the Bible. Now for any Christian that claims to believe in the God of the bible yet think its first book and chapter on creation is poetic, I doubt the legitimacy of their faith.

To move on, there isn't a single verse that I've found that deviates from this Cosmological model that I propose. Even the one that you've listed about it hanging over nothing, that is easily explainable, for the domed earth encapsulated by water, can also be hung over nothing. It's easy to project that "nothing" must be outer space, when you believe in outer space. But for the Bible to be so consistent, and not ever deviate from said model, seems to be saying that the Bible is claiming that the earth is domed, encapsulated by water, and stationary.

here are just some verses to illustrate the consistency:

to start, the word heaven(as in the one we live under), is merely a name for the firmament.

“And God CALLED the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.” Genesis 1:8 KJV

to further emphasize

"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?" Job 37:18

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" Isaiah 40:22 KJV

note how it states circle and not sphere. a circle being 2 dimensional and flat. If he is God, which He is, then He is perfectly able to have had the word ball or sphere in the place of circle, if he pleased. To state that the use of the word grasshoppers tent or curtains are poetic, thus the whole verse is poetic, is disengenuous. you all use analogies to explain reality every single day. the use of grasshoppers relates to our size in relation to his, which is fitting. curtain denotes physicality and barrier, and tent does as well, coming all the way back around to His firmament. these things only sound poetic to those that ignore or write it off, but it can very plainly be seen what the bible is inferring.

"When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:" Proverbs 8:27 KJV

"Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon." Joshua 10:12 KJV

Here in this verse it clearly shows that God made the sun and moon to stand still, independent of the earth. Basically inferring that the sun and moon are the only ones moving and not the earth, which is completely consistent with everything else in the Bible. Especially coinciding with the next verses I leave.

"Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved." 1 Chronicles 16:30 KJV

"The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved." Psalm 93:1 KJV

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." Psalm 104:5 KJV

I believe in the fullness of the Bible, you do not have to if you do not desire. But the Bible is definitely a dome, flat earth text, it is very easy to see. The ideas of outer space, galaxies, aliens, planets, are completely a product of secular science and sci-fi films, and are foreign ideas when you discard them and only take what God says in the bible. You all must admit this, at least, if you are honest after reading these verses.

faroukfarouk said:

Isaiah 40.22 indeed speaks of the 'the circle of the earth'.

Click to expand...

And Jesus is the door. John 10 7.

It is not wise to read the Bible excessively literally.

Kinable said:

The method I use is still the same as the one you want me to use. It can be applied to it, the one I used is more universal and the one taught in schools. There's nothing wrong with the Scientific Method I used, you're the only one who has a problem with it. Just because I'm not using the one you want me to use doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Click to expand...

Before you chide Subduction Zone asking you about your mathematical abilities... I am mostly interested in how much you understand the concept of "vectors".

You were asking for an explanation of the "excuse" that the earth is "too big".
This concept is a key for my explanation... so if you are sincerely interested in understanding your opponents view, and not misrepresent it... then I would love to explain it to you.

If you don't know how "vectors" work, or have forgotten, I am happy to give you a quick reminder. It's quite a simple concept.

Subduction Zone said:

And Jesus is the door. John 10 7.

It is not wise to read the Bible excessively literally.

Click to expand...

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11.3)

faroukfarouk said:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11.3)

Click to expand...

That is not a justification for your interpretation since other Christians with just as much faith and perhaps more disagree with you.

Freodin said:

Before you chide Subduction Zone asking you about your mathematical abilities... I am mostly interested in how much you understand the concept of "vectors".

You were asking for an explanation of the "excuse" that the earth is "too big".
This concept is a key for my explanation... so if you are sincerely interested in understanding your opponents view, and not misrepresent it... then I would love to explain it to you.

If you don't know how "vectors" work, or have forgotten, I am happy to give you a quick reminder. It's quite a simple concept.

Click to expand...

i agree. I only want to help in his understanding and I need some background information to understand what level I need to phrase my explanations.

tryphena rose said:

I believe in the fullness of the Bible, you do not have to if you do not desire. But the Bible is definitely a dome, flat earth text, it is very easy to see. The ideas of outer space, galaxies, aliens, planets, are completely a product of secular science and sci-fi films, and are foreign ideas when you discard them and only take what God says in the bible. You all must admit this, at least, if you are honest after reading these verses.

Click to expand...

Thank you for going through all of the verses that you use to support your point again. It is not necessary... I have heard all of them before, and I agree that, taken in a certain literal way, they would point to a Flat Earth.

But when you say that you "believe in the fullness of the Bible"... you have a small problem.
You tried to address the verses form Job... and you had to search for a potential explanation of these verses, so that these verses that read in the same literal way you use elsewhere do not support your position might be adapted to fit it.
You are willing to do that here... but you cannot get yourself to do that for other verses, for other interpretations.

Then you limit yourself to "only what God says in the bible". The bible says nothing about computers or the internet... so I guess you would (have to) agree with someone who hasn't seen either, and declares them false.
But here again you are willing to trust your own senses and your own experiences over "the Word of God".

Freodin said:

Thank you for going through all of the verses that you use to support your point again. It is not necessary... I have heard all of them before, and I agree that, taken in a certain literal way, they would point to a Flat Earth.

But when you say that you "believe in the fullness of the Bible"... you have a small problem.
You tried to address the verses form Job... and you had to search for a potential explanation of these verses, so that these verses that read in the same literal way you use elsewhere do not support your position might be adapted to fit it.
You are willing to do that here... but you cannot get yourself to do that for other verses, for other interpretations.

Then you limit yourself to "only what God says in the bible". The bible says nothing about computers or the internet... so I guess you would (have to) agree with someone who hasn't seen either, and declares them false.
But here again you are willing to trust your own senses and your own experiences over "the Word of God".

Click to expand...

It does say that knowledge will increase in latter days. It doesn't have to speak expressively of things that are merely tools such as internet use and the like. But from what I can see, you have no scripture to rebut and now you have admitted these verses to be what I've said all along, in a round about way. Which is fine, but I see through your argument now and that you have absolutely no scripture to offer, which was the only criteria I've ever had in answering you. Unless you can truly counter then this is it for me.

Have a good day, and may God bless you. Thanks for the chat.

tryphena rose said:

Not interested. You're not leaving any scripture as I just have, so you can find someone else to speak with on the matter. My reply is for those that believe in God's word, and only in God's word. I don't expect anyone to believe me, only the God they serve if they claim to serve Him, that is why I talk only on scripture of which is irrefutable. I won't reply to anyone if they're not bringing forth scripture. I'm here in the Christian forums, to speak on the Bible and nothing else.

Click to expand...

Ok, how about I have personally investigated over 200 scriptures used by flat earthers and have refuted them all. They have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth either way. Which one would you like to start with?

Kinable said:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

Just a though on this verse, there's a reason God told us not to make anything that is in the heaven above or below. That includes theories about space, stars, the universe, "earth's core", etc. It's why I say Globe Earth and the Big Bang is satanic, it takes the glory away from God. Sure you could say "God made the Big Bang" but it's not biblical. We really need a "Christian Only" section to talk about this topic, it's not fair that every single flat earth thread ends up here.

Click to expand...

That is only your very poor interpretation of that verse. A more accurate one would ban photography. Didn't you try to use photography to prove your point?

And why a Christians only place? That only leads to an echo chamber where one cannot learn why one is wrong.


If your views are correct a Christians only place is not needed.

Kinable said:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

Just a though on this verse, there's a reason God told us not to make anything that is in the heaven above or below. That includes theories about space, stars, the universe, "earth's core", etc. It's why I say Globe Earth and the Big Bang is satanic, it takes the glory away from God. Sure you could say "God made the Big Bang" but it's not biblical. We really need a "Christian Only" section to talk about this topic, it's not fair that every single flat earth thread ends up here.

Click to expand...

Incorrect application of that scripture. By your definition most art would be wrong, heck, so would building a house or driving a car. Graven image = image made as an object of worship. By this definition FE seems to apply.

Flat Earth steals glory from God because it changes the meaning of scriptures, entire chapters, meant to exalt God or bring spiritual understanding, to instead be about the shape of the Earth.

tryphena rose said:

It does say that knowledge will increase in latter days. It doesn't have to speak expressively of things that are merely tools such as internet use and the like. But from what I can see, you have no scripture to rebut and now you have admitted these verses to be what I've said all along, in a round about way. Which is fine, but I see through your argument now and that you have absolutely no scripture to offer, which was the only criteria I've ever had in answering you. Unless you can truly counter then this is it for me.

Have a good day, and may God bless you. Thanks for the chat.

Click to expand...

Hi @tryphena rose Scripture is indeed our yardstick, right?

topher694 said:

Ok, how about I have personally investigated over 200 scriptures used by flat earthers and have refuted them all. They have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth either way. Which one would you like to start with?

Click to expand...

if you've refuted, then be my guest. I am not only asking about the earth's shape, but if you've noticed, I am also speaking of the firmament, and stillness of the earth as well. I could go into the heavenly bodies and how they are all within the firmament as well, or even onto Noah, and his waters that came raining from the windows of heaven. Windows of which only make sense on a firm structure. Or even the ends of the earth, and how Jesus departed, and how he arrives, being seen by all people on earth, on your "globe" that does not make sense biblically. You can try it, but I doubt you will genuinely be analyzing the verses, or in their context, or as a Christian(i don't know if you are or not). Which my proposals are mainly towards other Christians, since the bible even states that what we believe is a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the greeks(in most translations, gentiles).