Is Paul's last trump in 1 Cor 15:52 the same as trump in Matt 24:31 and 7th trump in Reve 11?

keras said:

I provide scripture that tells the truth of Gods Plans for His people.
Nothing is avoided, just rebutted with verses that you don't address, as they destroy your false beliefs.

Why don't you give us your understanding of Revelation 7:9?
Who are they? Are they in heaven? Did they die? When does this happen?
A proper exegesis would be good.

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Revelation 7:9-17 tells us, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This is the souls of the redeemed in heaven now. This demolishes your soul sleep error.

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 7:9-17 tells us,

This is the souls of the redeemed in heaven now. This demolishes your soul sleep error.

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But it isn't.
This scripture does not support the idea they are dead people in heaven at all. It plainly states that God will dwell among them. NOT we go to heaven!
Revelation 7:15-17 jumps forward to Eternity; after the Millennium, as it is then that God will wpie away every tear.... Revelation 21:4

Believing the unscriptural nonsense of a 'rapture', has confused your mind and led to much error.

Douggg said:

Those passages are in visions, Keras.

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What is a 'vision' then? Especially a Bible prophetic vision?

They are previews of a reality to come.
They tell us about events yet to happen. Things like the gathering of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land, as is prophesied in many other scriptures. Why can't you see this truth?

Davy said:

All you make is affirmations, which is not showing actual proof from Bible Scripture.

1 Thess.4 reveals Jesus' coming and the alive saints being "caught up" on the last day of this present world, because Paul linked the resurrection with it. Jesus linked the resurrection with His gathering of the saints in His Olivet discourse too. I've already shown those Bible Scripture proofs that show Christ's coming to gather His Church is on the last day of this world, after the tribulation.

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1 Thess.4 reveals Jesus' coming and the alive saints being "caught up" on the last day of this present world, because Paul linked the resurrection with it. My My! All you make is affirmations, which is not showing actual proof from Bible Scripture. There is no logical reason why anyone would think 1 thes. 4 has to be "on the last day." That is nothing but human reasoning gone wrong.

Why do you think the resurrection of the church has to be "on the last day?" It will indeed be on the last day of the church age! But it most certainly will not be on the last day of the world, or the last day of the 70th week or the last day of the Jewish age.

I agree that Jesus said he would raise people un "on the last day." I submit he could have been speaking of the "Day of the Lord." It will be "the last day."

Then again, that Greek word has different meanings and can be used in different ways.

Rev 6:17 - For the great day G2250 of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

2Pe 3:10 - But the day G2250 of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day G2250 is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. G2250

1Th 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day G2250 of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Co 6:2 - (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day G2250 of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day G2250 of salvation.)

1Co 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day G2250 shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Rom 13:12 - The night is far spent, the day G2250 is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Therefore I submit that Jesus meaning was NOT the last 24 hours of the Jewish age.

Since I believe the rapture to be the first event of the Day of the Lord, I think a pretrib rapture fits "on the last day."

I've already shown those Bible Scripture proofs that show Christ's coming to gather His Church is on the last day of this world, after the tribulation They may have been proofs in your mind, but postribbers have been showing these scriptures for a very long time, and I doubt they have convinced ANY pretribber. It is all how one READS these scriptures and what thoughts go through the mind when these scriptures are read.

My question to you is, how in the world are you going to get the marriage and supper?
I have another question: are you going to set your OWN appointment with God's wrath?
I have yet another question: Are you expecting Jesus TONIGHT? Perhaps you need to read the last verse of Hebrews 9 again.
I have yet another question: why not just take the escape Plan God is offering? See Luke 21:36.

keras said:

But it isn't.
This scripture does not support the idea they are dead people in heaven at all. It plainly states that God will dwell among them. NOT we go to heaven!
Revelation 7:15-17 jumps forward to Eternity; after the Millennium, as it is then that God will wpie away every tear.... Revelation 21:4

Believing the unscriptural nonsense of a 'rapture', has confused your mind and led to much error.

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Not so! The opposite is the truth. You have a lovely way of talking. I don’t know why you are so vicious. That is normally a sign that someone has got no sound or solid rebuttal.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so! The opposite is the truth. You have a lovely way of talking. I don’t know why you are so vicious. That is normally a sign that someone has got no sound or solid rebuttal.

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I use scripture, you use abuse.
Rebuttal of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is real easy: The Bible never prophesies it and Jesus says it is impossible, John 3:13, +

keras said:

I use scripture, you use abuse.
Rebuttal of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is real easy: The Bible never prophesies it and Jesus says it is impossible, John 3:13, +

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Keras, you are taking John 3:13 out of context. Jesus was saying no-one has ascended to heaven and come back to tell about things from the higher heavenly perspective... Basically, Jesus is saying to them that they don't have the background to know what is really going on.

And that he had been in heaven before entering the world. So he is able to. And more than that, Jesus is revealing that he is the Lord of heaven, God. In other verses, Jesus said He came forth (out) from the Father.

12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, [even] the Son of man, who is in heaven.

________________________________________________

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

________________________________________________

1Corinthians15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Well, what does that mean? What is to be concluded from all those verses? And that Jesus created the world and everything in it?

It means that the throne of God is the demarcation point where God Who exists even beyond creation, who is called God the Father in the bible, and beyond fully knowing by anyone but He Himself, comes forth in perceptible form, that creation can perceive Him - as the Lord of Heaven.

And as the Lord of Heaven, chose to enter the world, taking on the form of man, born unto Mary as the Son of Man - Jesus.

Before the beginning, The Lord of Heaven, came out from God the Father, to create everything - heaven, the angels, everything there is. It is a concept hard to grasp, because God is so far beyond us, and our ability to understand. But we know for certain that everything He has revealed about Himself is True.

Douggg said:

Keras, you are taking John 3:13 out of context. Jesus was saying no-one has ascended to heaven and come back to tell about things from the higher heavenly perspective... Basically, Jesus is saying to them that they don't have the background to know what is really going on.

And that he had been in heaven before entering the world. So he is able to. And more than that, Jesus is revealing that he is the Lord of heaven, God. In other verses, Jesus said He came forth (out) from the Father.

12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, [even] the Son of man, who is in heaven.

________________________________________________

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

________________________________________________

1Corinthians15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Well, what does that mean? What is to be concluded from all those verses? And that Jesus created the world and everything in it?

It means that the throne of God is the demarcation point where God Who exists even beyond creation, who is called God the Father in the bible, and beyond fully knowing by anyone but He Himself, comes forth in perceptible form, that creation can perceive Him - as the Lord of Heaven.

And as the Lord of Heaven, chose to enter the world, taking on the form of man, born unto Mary as the Son of Man - Jesus.

Before the beginning, The Lord of Heaven, came out from God the Father, to create everything - heaven, the angels, everything there is. It is a concept hard to grasp, because God is so far beyond us, and our ability to understand. But we know for certain that everything He has revealed about Himself is True.

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Good post, Douggg!

keras said:

I use scripture, you use abuse.
Rebuttal of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is real easy: The Bible never prophesies it and Jesus says it is impossible, John 3:13, +

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I did not see the word "impossible" there. I wonder, do you ever consider TIME in studying the bible? Other than the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah, at the time Jesus said this, WHO from earth had every gone to heaven? All that died went DOWN to sheol.

keras said:

I use scripture, you use abuse.

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The reader can see for themselves who addresses the issues and who avoids. If Premil and soul sleep was biblical then you would be able and happy to respond to the counter arguments, but you don't or can't. That is why you always use ad hominem.

Rebuttal of the 'rapture to heaven' theory, is real easy: The Bible never prophesies it and Jesus says it is impossible, John 3:13, +

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When have i ever taught that? You need to read peoples posts before hurling your usual false charges.

sovereigngrace said:

When have i ever taught that? You need to read peoples posts before hurling your usual false charges.

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You believe that the vast multitude that John saw, Revelation 7:9; are in heaven.
You have yet to explain how they got there,
who they are,
are they dead or alive,
what are they there for,
when does this happen, etc.

I believe and say they are all the Christian peoples, who go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared that area. They wave palm branches to Jesus, who appears to them, standing in Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1, 2 Thess 1:10

Douggg said:

Keras, you are taking John 3:13 out of context.

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Maybe, just maybe, your arguments would have validity if Jesus had not said anything more about whether people could go to heaven. But He did:
There is no scripture that says there will take His people to heaven, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land: Romans 9:24-26

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.

iamlamad said:

I did not see the word "impossible" there. I wonder, do you ever consider TIME in studying the bible? Other than the exceptions of Enoch and Elijah, at the time Jesus said this, WHO from earth had every gone to heaven? All that died went DOWN to sheol.

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I used the word 'impossible', because we are flesh and blood humans, God and the angels are spiritual beings, who live in another dimension. John went there in his vision, Revelation 4:1, but this was just for the purpose of showing John the Revelation events. He lived out the rest of his life on earth.

What you and many miss seeing in the Bible prophesies, is the great promises of God to His people, of how they will be the ones He always wanted in His holy Land, the ones who will display His glory, Ezekiel 39:27 and be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 to the nations.

The two verses; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, prove that they, Gods holy people, the faithful Christians are present in Jerusalem during the end times.
This truth destroys the notion of the Jews there and going thru the GT, as those two verses are before the GT, which will happen during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns.
I want to see your serious reply to this.

keras said:

You believe that the vast multitude that John saw, Revelation 7:9; are in heaven.
You have yet to explain how they got there,
who they are,
are they dead or alive,
what are they there for,
when does this happen, etc.

I believe and say they are all the Christian peoples, who go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared that area. They wave palm branches to Jesus, who appears to them, standing in Mt Zion. Revelation 14:1, 2 Thess 1:10

Maybe, just maybe, your arguments would have validity if Jesus had not said anything more about whether people could go to heaven. But He did:
There is no scripture that says there will take His people to heaven, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10

We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land: Romans 9:24-26

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.

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You can stay behind and "tribulate" since that is what you have chosen, but the church is going to heaven. You can even set your OWN appointment with His wrath. We really don't care. Every one of those verses can are are read with a different meaning. You can wait until you have been overcome and then you will SHOCKED to find you are escorted into heaven - where it seems you don't want to go. (That is if you are born again and IN CHRIST.)

Of course, for the readers, always know that God has make a way of escape, by way of the pretrib rapture and in Luke 21:36. ANYONE can get in on this escape plan God has created. Or, people can disqualify themselves by their lack of faith in the pretrib rapture. Heb. 9 (last verse) tells us Christ is coming (pretrib) for those who re EXPECTING Him.

keras said:

I used the word 'impossible', because we are flesh and blood humans, God and the angels are spiritual beings, who live in another dimension. John went there in his vision, Revelation 4:1, but this was just for the purpose of showing John the Revelation events. He lived out the rest of his life on earth.

What you and many miss seeing in the Bible prophesies, is the great promises of God to His people, of how they will be the ones He always wanted in His holy Land, the ones who will display His glory, Ezekiel 39:27 and be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 to the nations.

The two verses; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, prove that they, Gods holy people, the faithful Christians are present in Jerusalem during the end times.
This truth destroys the notion of the Jews there and going thru the GT, as those two verses are before the GT, which will happen during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns.
I want to see your serious reply to this.

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Of course Daniel 7 is about the JEWS. No question there. The 70th week is for HIS people. (Are you a flesh and blood Jew?) Rev. 13 7 cannot be about the church, for they won't be here. In case you missed it, the Holy Land is for PHYSICAL descendants of Abraham. Of course, they may let you live there if you choose.

iamlamad said:

Of course Daniel 7 is about the JEWS. No question there. The 70th week is for HIS people. (Are you a flesh and blood Jew?) Rev. 13 7 cannot be about the church, for they won't be here. In case you missed it, the Holy Land is for PHYSICAL descendants of Abraham. Of course, they may let you live there if you choose.

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What anyone 'chooses' has no bearing on what God has planned and what will actually happen.
Your choice is to escape all these things and go to hide in heaven. But the Bible never says that is what God plans to do for His People.

My choice, is to stand firm in my faith and to continue to fulfil the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20, until Jesus Returns. This is what the Bible says we must do. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10

Re; Daniel 7:23-27, the Jews or Daniels ethnic people are not mentioned. It is ALL of the holy people of God who will be given the kingly power and greatness, that will last forever.

keras said:

You have yet to explain how they got there,
who they are,

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They are them who will be martyred during the great tribulation. They are the same ones as in Revelation 6:9-11.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

keras said:

Maybe, just maybe, your arguments would have validity if Jesus had not said anything more about whether people could go to heaven. But He did:
There is no scripture that says there will take His people to heaven, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

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No verse is saying that it is impossible for people to go to heaven. What is appropriate to say is people don't go to heaven in their natural fleah and blood bodies.

A Christian's soul goes to heaven upon physical death.

During the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thesslaonians4:15-18, the living Christians at the time, will be translated into eternal life bodies and go with Jesus, and them who's bodies are resurrected/reunited with their souls - all go to heaven with Jesus. Escaping the great tribulation here on earth.

Douggg said:

They are them who will be martyred during the great tribulation. They are the same ones as in Revelation 6:9-11.

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No Douggg, you again add to scripture, they are not the same. Bad you!
The martyrs of the Christian era do have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven. As Rev 6:9-11
But Revelation 20:4 is explicit and unequivocal; ONLY the Trib martyrs souls will be brought back by Jesus and raised, to be with Him for the Millennium.

Revelation 20:5 is also explicit; The rest of the dead await the GWT Judgment at the end of the 1000 years.

Douggg said:

No verse is saying that it is impossible for people to go to heaven. What is appropriate to say is people don't go to heaven in their natural fleah and blood bodies.

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No verse says anyone dead or alive goes to live in heaven. The souls of the martyrs are not alive, they are just given the means to cry out occasionaly. Revelation 19:1-3

Douggg said:

A Christian's soul goes to heaven upon physical death.

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This is the typical lie that is heard at funerals. many scriptures refute it. Isaiah 38:10-20

Douggg said:

During the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thesslaonians4:15-18, the living Christians at the time, will be translated into eternal life bodies and go with Jesus, and them who's bodies are resurrected/reunited with their souls - all go to heaven with Jesus. Escaping the great tribulation here on earth.

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Absolute unscriptural opinion, parroting false beliefs.
When Jesus Returns; after the Great Tribulation, He will gather His people to Him; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31

keras said:

What anyone 'chooses' has no bearing on what God has planned and what will actually happen.
Your choice is to escape all these things and go to hide in heaven. But the Bible never says that is what God plans to do for His People.

My choice, is to stand firm in my faith and to continue to fulfil the Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20, until Jesus Returns. This is what the Bible says we must do. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10

Re; Daniel 7:23-27, the Jews or Daniels ethnic people are not mentioned. It is ALL of the holy people of God who will be given the kingly power and greatness, that will last forever.

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You only imagine you know what God has planned. You stand pretty much alone in your belief: I have never heard it before.

You can certainly stand firm in your faith, and what will happen is you will be OVERCOME. Then you will have PRESSURE: accept the mark to keep your head - or stand firm and lose your head.

The truth is, God does not want ANY of His kids to be forced to make such a decision: He had an escape plan from the foundation of the earth. Make no mistake, God certainly has an escape plan. You can attempt to put a different meaning to Luke 21:36, but when you are gone (if the Lord tarries) it will still be an escape from the days of GT.

You wish to ignore the plain meaning of John 14. Fine. We don't care if you don't choose to escape. The church - the Bride of Christ - is going to be in heaven for the marriage and supper. You can be there as a guest, as one of the beheaded if you choose. And choosing is exactly what you are doing.

Do you really think the God we serve is the kind of God that would beat up His bride, cause her to be beheaded, before the marriage ceremony? You amaze me.

keras said:

No Douggg, you again add to scripture, they are not the same. Bad you!

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Keras, I did not add to the scriptures. I copied and pasted from the KJV. Perhaps because you use another translation - you may not be familiar with the text of the KJV.

keras said:

The martyrs of the Christian era do have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven. As Rev 6:9-11

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Them of the prior times to the great tribulation, who had been martyred down through the centuries - are there in heaven, but not as that group in the fifth seal, but as part of the rapture/resurrected saints which takes place before the shattering of "peace and safety", beginning the Day of the Lord in 1Thessalonians5:1-11.

keras said:

But Revelation 20:4 is explicit and unequivocal; ONLY the Trib martyrs souls will be brought back by Jesus and raised, to be with Him for the Millennium.

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Again, the text of Revelation 20:4-6 do not say anything about the martyres great tribulation souls being brought back with Jesus.

Jesus will have already returned, with his armies of heaven, and the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire; and Satan bound in chains and cast into the bottomless.

Them in Revelation 20:4-6, their souls are gathered from heaven, for the first resurrection, by the angels.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

keras said:

No verse says anyone dead or alive goes to live in heaven. The souls of the martyrs are not alive, they are just given the means to cry out occasionaly. Revelation 19:1-3

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1Thessalonians4:15-18 indicates that the dead in Christ (Christians who had died up to that point) will be resurrected; and the living translated, and meet Jesus in the air, to be with him forever.

In 1Thessalonians5:1-11, the text indicates that the rapture/resurrection must take place before the shattering of "peace and safety" the beginning of the Day of Lord.

As far as souls ago, a person is born again once they believe upon Jesus for their salvation.

Furthermore,
Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.