A Wonderful Plan

You quoted "you" just then - and stuck a Bible text after a quote "of you" ... you know that right?

Here we have an example of the 12 disciples chosen for specific ministry in John 15 (Again - "speaking to Jews" - as we note in context)

John 15
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another.
Disciples’ Relation to the World
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Notice - Christ does not say
1. You are the only ones that will be saved.
2. "I chose only you unto salvation - everyone else will be lost"

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Withstanding that which I wrote about your above comment in my previous post, here is conclusive scriptural evidence that the "you" in Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to all believers in all time.

The Word of God's Audience at the Supper Recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 13 to 17

Six entirely scripturally separate avenues exist to arrive at the audience being all believers in all time for the supper in John chapters 13 to 17 are enumerated below.

1. Both Matthias as well as Joseph were present when Lord Jesus declares that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

2. Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

3. Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

4. Jesus employed many open sentences during the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

5. Near the conclusion of the Gospel of John, the Apostle John's own writing, He wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

6. Just prior to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, He commanded us to go and teach and proclaim which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

BACKGROUD AND EVENTS AROUND THE SUPPER
EXHIBIT 1:

Luke discloses that there were more than twelve disciples at the time that Jesus named as apostles.

"And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:" (Luke 6:13)

EXHIBIT 2:

This passage establishes Jesus' "disciples" present from the
beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17, this says "disciples" not "apostles":

"Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded." (John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 3:

There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 4:

Jesus says "but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31).

After that, Jesus with the disciples may have been in the room where they had supper during the words of Jesus recorded in chapters 15 to 17 OR preparing to leave the room OR departing the room OR outside the room OR some combination of these - the Apostle John did not record that specifically. The way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. John's manner presented Jesus' discourse as one contiguous discourse; in other words, the way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. EXHIBIT 5 bears the appearance that they remained in the room.

EXHIBIT 5:

At the supper's conclusion, the next indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples is when Jesus and His disciples went forth over the ravine of the Kidron.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples." (John 18:1)

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

After EXHIBIT 3 (Judas departed) and before EXHIBIT 5 (supper concludes) the promises of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) and Jesus declaring God exclusively chooses men not men choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) occurs.

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16-17 (as well as every one of the listed references to the promise of the Holy Spirit) and He said "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

The word "you" that Jesus uses throughout the supper is powerfully important!

A BENEFICIAL NOTE ABOUT EXHIBIT 5

Lord Jesus said "Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, the very next verse continues the discourse unabated with "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser" (John 15:1).

There is no indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples until "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples" (John 18:1) which is after John chapters 13-17.

It could be asserted that John chapters 13-14 are the supper proper discourse while this discourse flowed into after supper discourse recorded in John chapters 15-17, yet John chapters 15-17 cannot be disassociated from the supper room because John did not record movement until John 18:1.

It could be asserted that John chapters 13-17 are the supper proper which includes Jesus concluding the supper with John chapters 15-17.

The supper activities include the discourse of John chapters 13-17.

DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM WITH JESUS

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Continued to post #223

Continued from post #222

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:

"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" (Acts 1:12-15)

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)

One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

THE SUPPER IN JOHN CHAPTERS 13 TO 17

Both the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) as well as God's exclusive role in choosing man (John 15:16) occur in the self-same supper recorded in John chapters 13 - 17.

Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." (Acts 2:38-39)

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

In another part of the prayer, Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours" (John 17:9).

Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9), so Jesus uses "the world" to mean different things. Such a difference exists in His use of "the world" in (John 17:9) compared to His use of "the world" in (John 3:16).

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.

JESUS COMMANDS US BELIEVERS TO GO AND TEACH AND PROCLAIM

The First Nature's Illegitimate Claim

People who claim to be able to choose Jesus, despite those people being confronted by the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), with those people persisting in their claim of being able to choose Jesus thereafter, with those people claiming the Word of God applies only to the apostles, by extension those people claim to be superior to the apostles.

Peter said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" And Jesus said to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-17). The Apostle Peter did not do it himself for he is flesh and blood. God did it to Peter. People who claim to be able to choose Jesus by extension claim to be superior to the apostles.

The Apostle Matthew recorded the command of Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14), for all His sheep (John 10:27-30) with His words of "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:19-20) and Mark recorded "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to all creation" (Mark 16:15). This teaching, this proclamation includes the exclusive role of God choosing man not man choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) for these words are a statement of the sovereignty of God according to Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28).

One of the teachings, one of the commands of Jesus is for we sheep of His to be entirely dependent on Jesus alone for salvation! We are to go and teach and proclaim this Truth (John 14:6).

THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE

Based on the above stated facts, as an independent first aveneue, the Apostles were not the only disciples in the supper room, so the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is binding upon all believers in all time.

As an independent second aveneue, just as the promise of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) is binding upon all believers in all time also binding are the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) (and see the CRUCIAL POINT above).

Furthermore, as an independent third aveneue, since Lord Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) with "their word" including John's messages a.k.a. the Book of John a.k.a. the Good Message of John a.k.a. the Gospel of John a.k.a. the supper recorded in John chapters thirteen to seventeen a.k.a. the word of John, this also makes "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding on all believers in all time.

As an independent fourth aveneue, Jesus employed an open sentence when He spoke the words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) resulting in the inclusion of all believers in all time being subject to His sovereign control of man's salvation. He did not use a closed sentence such as "you apostles" rather He used an open sentence with "you".

Moreover, John's writings as an independent fifth aveneue express Jesus' inherent quality of choice reserved to Jesus alone in Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time (John 4:6-42 [Living Water], John 6:35-40 [Bread of Life], John 7:37-39 [Living Water], John 15:13-19 [die for friends and God chooses exclusively], John 6:29 [God defines faith/belief in we believers as the work of God], John 3:21 [God wrings fruit in we believers], John 3:3-8 [God births we believers], John 6:44 [God draws the people of God and we people of God come to God], John 12:32 [God draws the people of God], John 20:28 [Jesus is God]).

Additionally, Lord Jesus' command for we believers to go and teach and proclaim as an independent sixth aveneue includes revealing the salvation of the Lord is of and by and through the Lord Jesus Christ exclusively (John 15:13-19, Matthew 19:25-26, and Exodus 14:13-18 as instruction from the Old Testament).

GOD HAS A WONDERFUL PLAN OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR GOD'S CHOSEN PERSONS.

Kermos said:

My writings of my first post are true, God's impartially is focused on punishment or reward based on behavior/fruit (post in this thread).

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My response to your post was incredibly accurate.

Kermos said:

No it's not, you cited scripture, and you proceeded to mishandle Romans 2:11.

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My reference to Romans 2:11 was incredibly accurate. You did not say anything to show otherwise.
Just "making the claim" is not "proof" of something.

Kermos said:

Are you trying to twist scripture?

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No - my choice is to be incredibly accurate.

Kermos said:

In Isaiah 5:3, God clearly identifies the audience being addressed as "inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah",

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And in John 3:16 the scripture is incredibly accurate that the "God so loved the World" text is given to a Jew an inhabitant of Jerusalem - Nicodemus.

The point remains.

And in Jer 31:31-34 the text specifically says the New Covenant is for "Israel and the house of Judah" -- a Bible detail we are reminded "AGAIN" about in Hebrews 8:8-12

The point remains.

Kermos said:

yet it sounds like you are trying to include the Gentiles as part of the identified audience.

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Just as the NT writers do "with scripture"

hint: There are 66 books in my Bible - not just 27-4 = 23

I thought we were all on board with that by now.

NT writers say that the OT was written for our instruction - see 1 Cor 10.

I prefer the Bible.

Kermos said:

Why would you write "one gospel for jews and another gospel for gentiles"?

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Because you are making claims about Isaiah 5:4 such that God is not sovereign when it comes to Jews - just gentiles or that God's response to rebellion is different between Jews and gentiles.. You are the one inserting "not gentiles -- just jews" in your posts.

Kermos said:

GOD HAS A WONDERFUL PLAN OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR GOD'S CHOSEN PERSONS.

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"God so loved the WORLD" John 3:16 "... yes... really"
"16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Spoken to a Jew - John 3.

Jesus "came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Kermos said:

There is one gospel of Christ for both Jew and Gentile!

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Finally! we are on the same page.

The same rules apply as Romans 2:4-16 show us - both Jews and Gentiles are faced with the same gospel reality in how God rewards the saints and judges the wicked.

HENCE - the Isaiah 5:4 example of how God deals with rebellion - just as Paul reminds us in 1Cor 10 to "pay attention" to what we see there - because HE says it applies to US.

BobRyan said:

How are we enabled to accept salvation - " I draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 - the supernatural drawing "of ALL" by God.

What happened when God came to "His OWN" ? "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11.

What is God's response when that "drawing of all" does not result in "gospel accepted"?

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

.

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Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

Paul insists that we "learn" from this --


If you would like me to explain this point in more detail - I am happy to do it.

Kermos said:

Do you have either limited literary ability or did you not read .

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Calvinism is not serving you "well" just then.

Hammster said:

That’s not his main point. Paul’s main point was always the gospel.

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The Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians in Rome know the Good News, but have a huge problem with their fellowshipping each other. Paul is trying to let them see how to resolve the issue. It would great for them to not have two Christian denominations in Rome.

Kermos said:

I am focused on God choosing man rather than man choosing God, hence I mentioned Abraham to demonstrate God's choosing. At this point, I am distinguishing between God choosing versus God granting gifts like speaking in tongues.

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A point to which I already agreed when it comes to gifts and ministries as 1 Cor 12 points out -- so God selects Israel to be the evangelists - selects Abraham to be the patriarch of Israel - but does not declare everyone else on planet Earth to be unloved or doomed without a savior - as even Abraham himself "paid tithes"

Which why my post had those references to God's "OWN" -- ISrael rejecting Him.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN" His soevereignly chosen - selected OWN - selected for ministry and mission.

"And His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 - because God still allows for free will. He is not partial.

================= that post ended this way =======

Kermos said:

so God does shows favor to some.

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"God is not partial" Rom 2:11 is the context of blessings to both Jews and gentiles and punishment of both Jews and gentiles.

God "favors" someone with a gift or a position -- in this life -- but when it comes to the Rom 2 context of eternal life vs second death - he is "impartial"

Kermos said:

Consider Abraham - there were many other people on the earth at the time of Abraham!

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True - as 1 Cor 12 points out - not all have the same mission the same gift - but God "is not willing for ANY to perish but for all to come to repentance" - 2 Peter 3. Not having the same role/gift is not the same as "God does not love me" or "God is partial".

Kermos said:

God is impartial about executing punishment or reward,

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Agreed. He does not choose one over the other. Rather as Romans 2 points out it is the fruit/deeds that show how the result is determined.

Acts 10
34 Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him."

Christ said "not everyone who SAYS" the right gospel words gets to heaven but rather "he who DOES the WILL of the Father" - Matt 7 for "by their fruits you shall know them" - the fruit shows whether the tree is good or bad.

Kermos said:

and exclusively God chooses some unto salvation (John 15:16-19).

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You quoted "you" just then - and stuck a Bible text after a quote "of you" ... you know that right?

Here we have an example of the 12 disciples chosen for specific ministry in John 15 (Again - "speaking to Jews" - as we note in context)

John 15
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another.
Disciples’ Relation to the World
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Notice - Christ does not say
1. You are the only ones that will be saved.
2. "I chose only you unto salvation - everyone else will be lost"

Kermos said:

Rom 2
[There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

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Yeah that's a big problem for "Calvinism only for gentiles" - and/or "gospel only for gentiles" - notice it is specifically addressing "glory and honor and peace" as the reward of heaven given to both groups


Rom 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

=================== your reponse

Kermos said:

I am focused on God choosing man rather than man choosing God, hence I mentioned Abraham to demonstrate God's choosing. At this point, I am distinguishing between God choosing versus God granting gifts like speaking in tongues.

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It looks more like you have conflated the two.

Kermos said:

Respecting 2 Peter 2:9.

My beloved brother and Apostle Peter wrote to and of the Assembly of God "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".

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2 Peter 3
9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Specifically Peter was addressing the timing of the second Coming -- which by the way - happens for all mankind, not "just gentiles" and not "just jews" and not "just believers".

Peter is arguing that those unsaved - the wicked - are being shown mercy by God's delay to get them to come into the fold of the Gospel.

I don't see how this helps your case.

as for 2 Peter 2:9
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

Clearly the "wicked exist" however there are a lot of lost people that will become saved as per the 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Kermos said:

The context which occurs immediately prior, "is patient toward you", speaks loud and clear to the audience, as does the opening of the epistle "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

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The "you" in 2 Peter -- which is not sent to any one "city" or one "church" - most certainly includes people that "became Christians" after Pentecost -- which means they "benefited" by not have the 2nd coming BEFORE they were converted... and Peter points out that this mercy extends to ALL since everyone at the moment that is not YET a christian - is clearly at the time LOST - so it is mercy to the LOST not just to those that already came into the fold of the gospel during the waiting time -- waiting for the 2nd coming.


John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

His 'own' -- Israel.. sovereignly selected to spread the gospel all during the OT times of Israel.

To which we get this response.

Kermos said:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

Please see that "nor of the will of man".

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Salvation is of God - but God offers it on HIS selected basis which is "whosoever will" John 3:16, John 1:12

Kermos said:

- is patient toward you (that "you" refers to people who received or [by God's patience] will receive the faith delivered by our God and Savior, Jesus Christ)

- not wishing for any to perish (that "any" refers back to that "you")

- but for all to come to repentance (that "all" refers back to that "any")

The Apostle Peter clearly, absolutely, and literally points to the members of the Assembly of God, the congregation of believers and/or future believers on the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Works for those who came in during the second-coming delay - but limiting the text that way does not address all the billions that would be converted during that ongoing delay -- i.e. "the wicked" at the time Peter is writing.

Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ehpesians 2:8-10).

That word "workmanship" in Greek looks A LOT like our English word poetry, so Paul wrote that God works in us unto "prepared beforehand" "good works".

Jesus says God works in us.

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True but that is not the point where we differ.

Kermos said:

Do you understand the concept of citing authoritative source for a comment?

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I had hoped you would recognize the scripture references I gave you as - authoritative source.

Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and that clearly refers to salvation.

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no it doesn't.

It refers to the office of apostle... disciples of Christ that were in his inner circle.

It is about selection for ministry. He is not telling Judas that God has in true Calvinist fashion ordained Judas to be saved - no matter his choices to the contrary.

Kermos said:

Withstanding that which I wrote about your above comment in my previous post, here is conclusive scriptural evidence that the "you" in Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to all believers in all time.

The Word of God's Audience at the Supper Recorded by the Apostle John in chapters 13 to 17

Six entirely scripturally separate avenues exist to arrive at the audience being all believers in all time for the supper in John chapters 13 to 17 are enumerated below.

1. Both Matthias as well as Joseph were present when Lord Jesus declares that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

2. Both the promise of the Holy Spirit and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

3. Both the prayer of Lord Jesus that incorporates all believers in all time and the declaration by Lord Jesus that God chooses people not people choosing God occur in the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

4. Jesus employed many open sentences during the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

5. Near the conclusion of the Gospel of John, the Apostle John's own writing, He wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31) which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

6. Just prior to the ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ, He commanded us to go and teach and proclaim which applies to the supper encounter described by the Apostle John in chapters 13 - 17.

BACKGROUD AND EVENTS AROUND THE SUPPER
EXHIBIT 1:

Luke discloses that there were more than twelve disciples at the time that Jesus named as apostles.

"And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:" (Luke 6:13)

EXHIBIT 2:

This passage establishes Jesus' "disciples" present from the
beginning of the supper for John chapters 13-17, this says "disciples" not "apostles":

"Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded." (John 13:5)

EXHIBIT 3:

There is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage.

EXHIBIT 4:

Jesus says "but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31).

After that, Jesus with the disciples may have been in the room where they had supper during the words of Jesus recorded in chapters 15 to 17 OR preparing to leave the room OR departing the room OR outside the room OR some combination of these - the Apostle John did not record that specifically. The way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. John's manner presented Jesus' discourse as one contiguous discourse; in other words, the way that John presents Jesus' discourse is that Jesus continued one way or the other at that time. EXHIBIT 5 bears the appearance that they remained in the room.

EXHIBIT 5:

At the supper's conclusion, the next indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples is when Jesus and His disciples went forth over the ravine of the Kidron.

"When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples." (John 18:1)

EXPOSITION OF THE EXHIBITS

The chronology of these events is very important and crucial. The exhibits are provided in chronological order.

After EXHIBIT 3 (Judas departed) and before EXHIBIT 5 (supper concludes) the promises of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14) and Jesus declaring God exclusively chooses men not men choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19) occurs.

Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:16-17 (as well as every one of the listed references to the promise of the Holy Spirit) and He said "you" in John 15:16 as recorded by the Apostle John.

The word "you" that Jesus uses throughout the supper is powerfully important!

A BENEFICIAL NOTE ABOUT EXHIBIT 5

Lord Jesus said "Get up, let us go from here" (John 14:31) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, the very next verse continues the discourse unabated with "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser" (John 15:1).

There is no indication of movement of Jesus and the disciples until "When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples" (John 18:1) which is after John chapters 13-17.

It could be asserted that John chapters 13-14 are the supper proper discourse while this discourse flowed into after supper discourse recorded in John chapters 15-17, yet John chapters 15-17 cannot be disassociated from the supper room because John did not record movement until John 18:1.

It could be asserted that John chapters 13-17 are the supper proper which includes Jesus concluding the supper with John chapters 15-17.

The supper activities include the discourse of John chapters 13-17.

DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM WITH JESUS

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Continued to post #223

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1. I am sure we would both agree that in that John 17 statement in the upper room Christ is speaking "to Jews" - the disciples.

And it is the case in Isaiah 5 as well.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

And also in Jer 31:31-34 "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" for the New Covenant.
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Lots of tiny "snips" from the gospel of John in that post - trying to explain John 15 about Christ choosing the disciples. I find that "instructive" since what you are supposed to be doing is looking at your John 15 case.

1. This is at the last supper - the only people in the room are the disciples.
2. Jesus said "to them"

16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Clearly it is a call to what he "appointed them" -- to do. He is talking to them about their ministry.

Your argument essentially argues that we can't take "all of the book of John - and restrict Jesus' comments to be limited to just-the-disciples" -- and nobody has done that here - so you are beating a dead horse on that one.

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You are bent on "inserting" into the text "appointed you to salvation and deliberately NOT appointing others" -- a necessary technique in Calvinism - because Calvinism progresses via extreme inference.. inserting into the text what is not there -- and that can be seen time after time as it tries to "fix the text" or slightly "adjust it" to make a more Calvinist statement.

Kermos said:

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).
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1. Your argument essentially argues that we can't take "all of the book of John - and restrict Jesus' comments to be limited to just-the-disciples" -- and nobody has done that here - so you are beating a dead horse on that one.

2. To "write that you may believe" is the Arminian model of persuading via facts and argument rather than zapping someone to believe. As Paul said "We BEG YOU be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5

But persuasion does not always convince the person

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Isaiah 5:4 "“What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?"

Matthew 23: 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

As for God - 2 Peter 3:9 - God "is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"

1 Tim 2 : 3
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 "for God so loved the WORLD that HE gave..." yes really -- the world.

Acts 10:34
Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all

To the lost - who are alone on the inside and without "Christ in me the hope of glory" - Christ says
Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

topher694 said:

Telling people God doesn't have a good plan for their lives doesn't produce good fruit, it isn't consistent with Jesus' example, it requires cherry-picking a few scriptures and reading them out of context and then twisting the words and examples of anyone who offers the alternative, just as we've seen here

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g

It is always interesting to see when someone, one is arguing has not understood what has been proposed.
Yes I said don't tell people God has a wonderful plan for them. I gave two reasons, that helll is not wonderful and that being a Christian is not a promise of a healthy, wealthy life.
Instead I suggested introducing them to Jesus.

If you find people turn to Jesus because of' a promise of a wonderful plan', that is good.

May I continue to suggest that Jesus is far more important than God's plan for people.