Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Saint Steven · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
The passage cited does not pertain to the world at large but only to a specific people whom God left in unbelief for a time in order that mercy could be shown to all people...

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Both Israel (the Jews) and the gentiles are being discussed. Who else is there?

Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Both Israel (the Jews) and the gentiles are being discussed. Who else is there?

Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

But this chapter is centered around the Jewish people and how both the casting away of the Jews and the reconciliation them to God works out for the good of the whole world.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Both Israel (the Jews) and the gentiles are being discussed. Who else is there?
Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This guy has me on ignore evidently since he can't refute my posts.
In Rom 11:32 ἐλεέω/eleeo the word translated "might have mercy" is aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility and potentiality. Receiving mercy is not a done deal it depends on the sinner receiving Christ.
If Paul had intended to say "shall have mercy" he would have written eleeo in the future, active, indicative as he did in Rom 9:15.

Romans 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might [ἐλεέω/eleeo] have mercy upon all.
Romans 9:15
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy [ἐλεέω/eleeo] on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Saint Steven · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But this chapter is centered around the Jewish people and how both the casting away of the Jews and the reconciliation them to God works out for the good of the whole world.

So, how does that square with your previous objection? (quoted below)
Now you seem to be confirming that "... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11:32

Contenders Edge said: ↑
The passage cited does not pertain to the world at large but only to a specific people whom God left in unbelief for a time in order that mercy could be shown to all people...

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
So, how does that square with your previous objection? (quoted below)
Now you seem to be confirming that "... God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11:32

Contenders Edge said: ↑
The passage cited does not pertain to the world at large but only to a specific people whom God left in unbelief for a time in order that mercy could be shown to all people...

As I said, that passage does not pertain to the entire world, but only to a specific group of people, whom God left in unbelief which He then used to draw the rest of the world to Himself, but even they whom He has left in unbelief will He also draw back to Himself, which will be all the more for the good of the entire world. There has been no contradiction to my previous objections.

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

Der Alter said:
Utter nonsense! No matter how many times you repeat this you cannot make it true.
Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than they know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note the EOB Paul uses “aionios” and “aidios” as synonyms, Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17.

The Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/té aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If you choose to read this version I suggest you read the preface which summarizes the scholarship supporting this translation.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Should I include some of your content in my response posts to him to let him know you're not as invisible as he thinks? (LOL)

The way ignore works if you quote my post he still can't see it. If you quote my post remove the quote blocks around the text. Delete this [QU0TE="Der Alter:12345"] and this [/QU0TE] They can run but they can't hide.

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

Der Alter said:
The way ignore works if you quote my post he still can't see it. If you quote my post remove the quote blocks around the text. Delete this [QU0TE="Der Alter:12345"] and this [/QU0TE] They can run but they can't hide.

I'll remember that. Ran into some technical issues when I was trying to respond to your last post on the matter.

Saint Steven · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
As I said, that passage does not pertain to the entire world, but only to a specific group of people, whom God left in unbelief which He then used to draw the rest of the world to Himself, but even they whom He has left in unbelief will He also draw back to Himself, which will be all the more for the good of the entire world. There has been no contradiction to my previous objections.

If that is correct, please tell me who in the world is missing from the two groups mentioned.
1) Israel (the Jews - all non-gentiles)
2) The gentiles (all non-Jews)
3) Who's left?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

FineLinen · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
As I said, that passage does not pertain to the entire world, but only to a specific group of people, whom God left in unbelief which He then used to draw the rest of the world to Himself, but even they whom He has left in unbelief will He also draw back to Himself, which will be all the more for the good of the entire world. There has been no contradiction to my previous objections.

There are many (polus) things you contend. Your problem continues to be your limited grasp of the Lord & His words of life.

The entire world (the radical pas) has been placed in disobedience by the Author & Finisher, with the express purpose of mercy upon everyone (the same radical all of pas).

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2020

FineLinen said:
There are many (polus) things you contend. Your problem continues to be your limited grasp of the Lord & His words of life.
The entire world (the radical pas) has been placed in disobedience by the Author & Finisher, with the express purpose of mercy upon everyone (the same radical all of pas).

This is more misdirection and misinterpretation UR-ites try to foist upon God's people.
Paul used the word “all” 395 times. When Paul meant “all” he said “all.” Here are six verses where Paul used “the many” which clearly does not mean all. The words “all’ and “the many” occur in the same verse, 1 Cor 10:17 and 1 Cor 10:33,.
Also included six verses from other books which use “the many” which also clearly does not mean all.

[1] Romans 12:5 So we, being many, [οι πολλοι] are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
[2]1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being [οι πολλοι] many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
[3]1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.
[4]2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many [οι πολλοι] many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
[5]2 Corinthians 8:15 As it is written, He that had gathered [το πολυ] much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
[6]Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great [την πολλην] love wherewith he loved us,

Other NT verses which use “the many.” which clearly does not mean all.

[1]Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of [των πολλων] many shall wax cold.
[2]Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people [ο πολυς] heard him gladly.
[3]Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, [αι πολλαι] are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
[4]Acts of the apostles 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much [τα πολλα] learning doth make thee mad.
[5]1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant [το πολυ] mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
[6]Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many [των πολλων] waters:

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
If that is correct, please tell me who in the world is missing from the two groups mentioned.
1) Israel (the Jews - all non-gentiles)
2) The gentiles (all non-Jews)
3) Who's left?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Those certain people that God concluded in unbelief are the Jews as the entire eleventh chapter of Romans was written to explain the purpose that God has sought to bring about through them as it pertains to reconciling the entire world to Himself. Both their blindness and reconciliation to God will be used draw the entire world to Himself. You need to place the cited passage within its proper context.

Der Alte · Apr 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That is only true if "everlasting" and "punishment" were correctly translated.
That is our point. Age-long correction is neither eternal nor punishment. Restoration is the goal.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Der Alter said:
...

Utter nonsense! No matter how many times you repeat this you cannot make it true.
Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than they know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note the EOB Paul uses “aionios” and “aidios” as synonyms, Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17.

The Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/té aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If you choose to read this version I suggest you read the preface which summarizes the scholarship supporting this translation.

...

In my previous response to your post I forgot to post my proof from the NT that "kolasis," translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 does not mean "correction" as UR-ites argue..
The word "kolasis" occurs one other time in the NT.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The one that has fear, i.e. kolasis, is not corrected, is not made perfect.
"Kolasin" cannot mean "correction" in Matt 25:46 and "torment" in 1 Jn 4;18.

Contenders Edge · Apr 15, 2020

FineLinen said:
There are many (polus) things you contend. Your problem continues to be your limited grasp of the Lord & His words of life.

The entire world (the radical pas) has been placed in disobedience by the Author & Finisher, with the express purpose of mercy upon everyone (the same radical all of pas).

I just know what the text itself presents and what it says is what it says and I leave it at that and God did not make the entire world to disobey Him; that is a blasphemy of His character to suggest that. We did that on our own. He does desire so show mercy to all, and He offers it to all, but not all choose to accept His mercy.

FineLinen · Apr 15, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I just know what the text itself presents and what it says is what it says and I leave it at that and God did not make the entire world to disobey Him; that is a blasphemy of His character to suggest that. We did that on our own. He does desire so show mercy to all, and He offers it to all, but not all choose to accept His mercy.

Young lad: You must focus, not on contending but on the pronunciations of the Glorious One.

Follow the bouncing ball >>>

“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly,

but by reason of Him

who has subjected the same in hope....”

Your questions for today =

1. Who subjected who and why?

2. Is whole pas or tis?

Saint Steven · Apr 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
Those certain people that God concluded in unbelief are the Jews as the entire eleventh chapter of Romans was written to explain the purpose that God has sought to bring about through them as it pertains to reconciling the entire world to Himself. Both their blindness and reconciliation to God will be used draw the entire world to Himself. You need to place the cited passage within its proper context.

I indicated right up front that it was for the entire world. (you disagreed)
But your rebuttal (at least three times) is to claim that it is for the entire world. - lol

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Saint Steven · Apr 16, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I just know what the text itself presents and what it says is what it says and I leave it at that...

Well, you should apply that here also.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2020

Posting this so readers will not be misled by this selectively quoted verse.

Romans 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy [ελεηση/eleésé] upon all.

“eleésé" the Greek word translated “”might have mercy” is in an aorist active subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The mercy is not a done deal for all. One must be in Christ to receive mercy.
If Paul had intended to write “shall have mercy” he would have written “eleésō” in the future active indicative as he did in Rom 9:15.

Romans 9:15
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy [ελεησω/eleésō] on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Jipsah · Apr 16, 2020

redleghunter said:
Just because someone denies an eternal hell does not mean it goes away.

Hell may be eternal, but sinners aren't. "...fear Him that is able to destroy both soul an body in hell." The wages of sin is not eternal life in hell.

Der Alte · Apr 16, 2020

Jipsah said:
Hell may be eternal, but sinners aren't. "...fear Him that is able to destroy both soul an body in hell." The wages of sin is not eternal life in hell.

What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says that any soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.
Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note that Paul uses “aionios” and “aidios” as synonyms, Rom 1:20 and 1 Tim 1:17.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/original/18204/18204-New-Testament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If you choose to consult the EOB version I suggest you read the preface which summarizes the scholarship supporting this translation.

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

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