What did Jesus mean in John 3 by "the Kingdom of God?"

iamlamad

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In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God."

I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven.

The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God."

I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven.

Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints?
Thanks for your input.
 
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Dave L

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In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God."

I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven.

The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God."

I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven.

Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints?
Thanks for your input.

>“kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.” It is a spiritual kingdom Christ preached into existence during his first advent.

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

>Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 lists many born again since the time of Able.

> The resurrection of believers happens on the last day, followed by the rapture, followed by the resurrection of unbelievers consigned to Hell.
 
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Mr. M

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Heaven-place or plane of existence. ["the third heaven". 2 Co 12]
God-person of Deity, Supreme Being.
The Kingdom of God or Heaven speaks to sovereignty and citizenship.
1 Peter 2:9. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Philippians 3:20. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
If I fly to the UK today, I remain a citizen of the US.
I am sitting at a desk in Arizona, but if I am born again from above and abiding in the Holy Spirit,
I am a citizen of heaven, a peculiar person of the Kingdom of God and Christ my King.

Colossians 3:If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
 
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Mr. M

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I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again?
Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Perhaps Briefly, "dead men walking!"
 
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Mr. M

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“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)
Nice comparison Dave. Let me add to them Matthew 6:24; Luke 16:13.
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
To serve God in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit [Romans 14:17], the believer must 'overcome the world' .
Rev 2:26. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Luke 16:16. The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
 
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Francis Drake

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The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God."

I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament.
You foundational premise, that OT saints were not born again, is entirely wrong, making the remainder unreliable.
If they were not born again.-
This means that Moses wrote the Law when he was spiritually dead, and had no relationship with God!
This means that David's incredible love relationship with God existed while he was spiritually dead.

But lets look at what the scripture actually says-
Jn3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”

So according to Jesus, only those who were born again (ie. born from above by the Spirit of God) could see the kingdom of God. Or putting it another way, to see the Kingdom of God, you must be already born again.

By that simple logic, Ezekiel must have been born again before he saw the Lord on his throne in the kingdom of God.-
Ezekiel1v26And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.


Likewise Daniel saw the kingdom of God.
Daniel7v 9I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven.
Paradise is just the entry part of heaven.
Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints?
Thanks for your input.
 
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com7fy8

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In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God."

I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven.
You are a "word of faith" person; so I think you can relate with the "now" idea. I think there is the "now" meaning of the kingdom of God and this is also the kingdom of heaven . . . "now".

Now includes how >

"'Blessed are the poor in spirit,
. For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.'"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .(Matthew 5:3)

Jesus doesn't say "will be" "theirs", or they "will go to" Heaven, right?

So, how could the "kingdom of heaven" be ours "now", please?

My opinion, which you are free to evaluate . . . is if we are "poor in spirit", this can include that in our hearts we are "poor" > meaning we do not desire to be rich.

People of this world are about money and honey and funny and control so they can use these things to get their pleasures that are such a treasure for them. So, then, we are not rich in heart, by desiring to be rich. But we are poor in heart, meaning we don't care about what can get us rich and what it can do for us; plus, by the way, we are not only about trying to use God for what we want.

But, instead, we are in God's love with His richly sweet and tender family affection and sharing with Him and one another. And this is Heaven's love . . . now . . . in us. So, this love is included in Heaven's kingdom, shared with us, right now, by means of the Holy Spirit who is . . . Heaven's Spirit >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

A practical nurturing scripture for this is >

"be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13:5)

In our hearts, God wants us to be satisfied with what we have. And His love with His own Heavenly quality and beauty of pleasant rest certainly makes us unconditionally satisfied with Him and with sharing and caring as His family with one another . . . right? And so, by being unconditionally satisfied with God in His family caring and sharing love with each other, this makes us unconditionlly content no matter what we have in this world or how relationships are going.

So, this is what being "poor in spirit" is > how already we have Heaven's kingdom of how His love is, in us, so we are "poor in spirit" by not desiring and seeking this world's treasure pleasures which are not a treasure for us.

So, in simplicity > the terms kingdom of God and kingdom of Heaven bring out different things about the same thing. God's kingdom is His realm of how He is in love. And in this love He shares with us so we actually experience the kingdom which God Himself is experiencing > as much as we have grown in this love, of course. And the term "kingdom of heaven" brings out how this realm is so above, so greater than this world's realm.

So, they mean the same thing, since God is so greater and higher than this world.
 
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iamlamad

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You foundational premise, that OT saints were not born again, is entirely wrong, making the remainder unreliable.
If they were not born again.-
This means that Moses wrote the Law when he was spiritually dead, and had no relationship with God!
This means that David's incredible love relationship with God existed while he was spiritually dead.

But lets look at what the scripture actually says-
Jn3v3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”

So according to Jesus, only those who were born again (ie. born from above by the Spirit of God) could see the kingdom of God. Or putting it another way, to see the Kingdom of God, you must be already born again.

By that simple logic, Ezekiel must have been born again before he saw the Lord on his throne in the kingdom of God.-
Ezekiel1v26And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.


Likewise Daniel saw the kingdom of God.
Daniel7v 9I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.

10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Paradise is just the entry part of heaven.
If your premise is true, please then explain WHY Jesus had to die for our sins.
 
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iamlamad

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Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Perhaps Briefly, "dead men walking!"
How many is "many?" It is certainly not all. I think this was the "elders" from the Old Covenant. I would think Adam would be the most "elder!"

The resurrection of the Old Covenant, according to John several times, will be "on the last day." I take that to mean the last 24 hours of the 70th week of Daniel, or at the time of the 7th vial that ends the week. Notice there the worst ever earthquake.
 
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iamlamad

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People of the OT knew that Jesus was coming as a Savior. So they were able to accept salvation the way we do.
We accept salvation by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

They had faith in God to save them by way of animal sacrifices - I guess.
 
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iamlamad

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>“kingdom of God” = “kingdom of Heaven.” It is a spiritual kingdom Christ preached into existence during his first advent.

“a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:23) = “How hardly shall they who have riches enter into the kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24)

>Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 11 lists many born again since the time of Able.

> The resurrection of believers happens on the last day, followed by the rapture, followed by the resurrection of unbelievers consigned to Hell.
If the two terms mean the same thing, then all the Old Testament saints had to be born again at some time after Christ rose from the dead. I just wonder WHEN.

Several times in John he wrote that Christ would raise up the Old Testament believers "on the last day. I take that to mean the last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel - which would be at the 7th vial that ends the week. I don't think this speaks to the rapture of the church.
 
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Dave L

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If the two terms mean the same thing, then all the Old Testament saints had to be born again at some time after Christ rose from the dead. I just wonder WHEN.

Several times in John he wrote that Christ would raise up the Old Testament believers "on the last day. I take that to mean the last 24 hour day of the 70th week of Daniel - which would be at the 7th vial that ends the week. I don't think this speaks to the rapture of the church.
Abel was born again. Job and Abraham too.
Last day = end of the world.
70 weeks ended with Stephen's being stoned by the Pharisees.
 
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AllDayFaith

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We accept salvation by faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

They had faith in God to save them by way of animal sacrifices - I guess.
Some of the OT prophets spoke about Jesus and they often called Him Savior.
 
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fwGod

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In John 3 Jesus is clear that unless one is born again, they cannot see or enter "the Kingdom of God."

I think many believers substitute "kingdom of heaven" here: that unless someone is born again, they cannot ever enter heaven.

The first question then is this: what is the full meaning here of "Kingdom of God."

I think most people on this thread would agree that the born again walk was just NOT Available to the saints under the Old Testament. So IF the first question is that "kingdom of heaven" is included in "kingdom of God" in that no one not born again can enter heaven - then WHEN were the Old Testament saints born again? Jesus is very clear that old Testament saints had to go to Abraham's bosom or paradise after death in his story of the rich man and Lazarus. I believe Jesus emptied Paradise and took them all to heaven.

Finally, when or where in Revelation would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints?
Thanks for your input.
The kingdom of God is entered through salvation as well as through discontinuing any various sinful conduct.

The resurrection in the Revelation doesn't include the Old Testament saints. They arose when Jesus arose (Mat.27:52:53)

The Resurrection in Revelation is concerning the saints during the Tribulation to reign with Christ for a thousand years, and concerning the sinners that are to be resurrected after the Millennium to be at the White Throne Judgement. (Rev.20:4-6, 11-15)
 
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Francis Drake

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If your premise is true, please then explain WHY Jesus had to die for our sins.
A completely pointless question. My premise does not challenge any of the normal reasons of why Jesus died.

But more to the point, why don't you answer the points I raised about the OT prophets seeing or entering heaven.
 
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Francis Drake

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If the two terms mean the same thing, then all the Old Testament saints had to be born again at some time after Christ rose from the dead. I just wonder WHEN.
I'm sorry to throw a spanner in the works of your neat and tidy religion, but new birth didn't start when Jesus died, but had always been there from Adam onwards.
All OT saints were born again on account of what Jesus did on the cross, even though they knew not how.
When Jesus spoke about being born again in Jn3, it is all in the present tense, not future. ie. It was immediately true because it had always been true.
Your theology makes a mockery of Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again, if that was not possible for another 3 years.
 
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iamlamad

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I'm sorry to throw a spanner in the works of your neat and tidy religion, but new birth didn't start when Jesus died, but had always been there from Adam onwards.
All OT saints were born again on account of what Jesus did on the cross, even though they knew not how.
When Jesus spoke about being born again in Jn3, it is all in the present tense, not future. ie. It was immediately true because it had always been true.
Your theology makes a mockery of Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born again, if that was not possible for another 3 years.
That is a theory. I am not sure it is true though. If true, why was "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous went back then? Why did they not go straight to heaven?
 
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