Help with Psalm 138:2

I see John 1:1 in that use.

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God." NKJV

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

In the KJV we read the following

Psalm 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Now some folks on CF believe this reference to 'thy word' is the bible.

In so doing they see the bible as being above God Himself.

I find it hard to see this as anything but idolatry.

Now I suspect the Hebrew does not convey this meaning and this is reflected in other translations.

The matter is further complicated by some believing the KJV translation is the final authority.

They believe that other translation were corrupted by leaning on manuscripts from Westcott and Hort who it is claimed were occultists.

I have always believed the "Word of God" is the 'going forth' of God's intent of heart in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not the Bible, which although is given as our final authority in matters of truth, is a written word, not a living word without the Holy Spirit.

Your input appreciated...

Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus is the living and eternal Word; and all His blessed ways are consistent with what Scripture says.

So I don't see your problem and the word 'idolatry' would seem, with respect, inappropriate.

faroukfarouk said:

So I don't see your problem and the word 'idolatry' would seem, with respect, inappropriate.

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IIUC, he was speaking of those who would use that verse to elevate the written Word, the Bible, above God, Himself.

That practice is known as Bibliolatry. (In reality, it is the elevating one's interpretation of the Bible above God, Himself.)

Sabertooth said:

IIUC, he was speaking of those who would use that verse to elevate the written Word, the Bible, above God, Himself.

That practice is known as Bibliolatry. (In reality, it is the elevating one's interpretation of the Bible above God, Himself.)

Click to expand...

I don't understand the concept...

(Hard to get my mind around it...)

I'll PM you so we won't derail the thread.

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

In the KJV we read the following

Psalm 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Now some folks on CF believe this reference to 'thy word' is the bible.

In so doing they see the bible as being above God Himself.

I find it hard to see this as anything but idolatry.

Now I suspect the Hebrew does not convey this meaning and this is reflected in other translations.

The matter is further complicated by some believing the KJV translation is the final authority.

They believe that other translation were corrupted by leaning on manuscripts from Westcott and Hort who it is claimed were occultists.

I have always believed the "Word of God" is the 'going forth' of God's intent of heart in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not the Bible, which although is given as our final authority in matters of truth, is a written word, not a living word without the Holy Spirit.

Your input appreciated...

Click to expand...

Lord Jesus is the Word of God - the Living Word. The written word leads us to the Living Word, Jesus. The Bible is not an instruction manual for Christian living, it is a treasure map to reveal the riches that are ours in Christ. Lord Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Many people think that eternal life is found only in the scriptures. Not so. Life is only in Christ.

We dare not undervalue the Bible either. It is the safety net that can keep us from error. But no, the Bible is not God.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes that is exactly my concern...

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John 1:1 gives us a viable interpretation.

"And [Jesus] being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:8-11 NKJV

It parallels Pharaoh elevating Joseph above himself.

" 'You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.'
And Pharaoh said to Joseph, 'See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” Genesis 41:40-41 NKJV

We cannot have Scripture without the meaning and we cannot have the meaning without Scripture.

Words allude and when meanings intersect, they equate.

Sabertooth said:

IIUC, he was speaking of those who would use that verse to elevate the written Word, the Bible, above God, Himself.

That practice is known as Bibliolatry. (In reality, it is the elevating one's interpretation of the Bible above God, Himself.)

Click to expand...

Good point / post.
---
Psalm 138:2 is an example.
- Those who hold 'KJV only' view.. read that verse
and come to certain conclusion / interpretation.
---
It is interesting to study / research 'history of
Bible translation.'
- Especially, KJV translation..

Here is the way one of my favorite translations has it (with a explanatory footnote)...

I will bow down toward your holy temple,
and give thanks to your name,
because of your loyal love and faithfulness,
for you have exalted your promise above the entire sky." [c]

[c] Psalm 138:2 tc The MT reads, “for you have made great over all your name your word.” If retained, this must mean that God’s mighty intervention, in fulfillment of his word of promise, surpassed anything he had done prior to this. However, the statement is odd and several emendations have been proposed. Some read, “for you have exalted over everything your name and your word,” while others suggest, “for you have exalted over all the heavens your name and your word.” The translation assumes an emendation of “your name” to “your heavens” (a construction that appears in Pss 8:3 and 144:5). The point is that God has been faithful to his promise and the reliability of that promise is apparent to all. For a fuller discussion of these options, see L. C. Allen, Psalms 101-150 (WBC), 244.

What did the author mean?
"Bible?" - the Bible, certainly as we know it, didn't exist at the time.
"Jesus?" - Jesus was not known at the time either.

What the Holy Spirit may have hidden in the Psalm is one thing, what the author understood himself to mean quite another.

Other translations:
Complete Jewish Bible
I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your grace and truth; for you have made your word [even] greater than the whole of your reputation.
Revised Standard Version
I bow down toward thy holy temple and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness; for thou hast exalted above everything thy name and thy word.
Orthodox Jewish Bible
I will worship toward Thy Heikhal Kodesh, and praise Shmecha (Thy Name) for Thy chesed and for Thy emes; for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above Kol Shimcha (all Thy Name; Yn 1:1, 14 OJBC).
The Living Bible
I face your Temple as I worship, giving thanks to you for all your loving-kindness and your faithfulness, for your promises are backed by all the honor of your name.

"for you have made your word [even] greater than the whole of your reputation." Your reputation refers to what other people think of you. So one way of putting this phrase would be "You've outdone yourself through your word." or "Your word shows us that you are even greater than we thought."

And that last thought is indeed true. God is far greater than our concept of Him, and He is beyond our imagination. That is why He had to become incarnate - so we could see him in a manner we could begin to comprehend, and put him in a context (on earth) we could relate to. Even then, our understanding of him. our knowing him, continues to surprise and delight us the longer we spend time with him.

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

In the KJV we read the following

Psalm 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Now some folks on CF believe this reference to 'thy word' is the bible.

In so doing they see the bible as being above God Himself.

I find it hard to see this as anything but idolatry.

Now I suspect the Hebrew does not convey this meaning and this is reflected in other translations.

The matter is further complicated by some believing the KJV translation is the final authority.

They believe that other translation were corrupted by leaning on manuscripts from Westcott and Hort who it is claimed were occultists.

I have always believed the "Word of God" is the 'going forth' of God's intent of heart in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not the Bible, which although is given as our final authority in matters of truth, is a written word, not a living word without the Holy Spirit.

Your input appreciated...

Click to expand...

Idolatry of the Bible in my view is bowing down to the actual book as if it was a magical object with very little to no thought or respect to God being a spirit being and in refusing to adoring and worshiping Him (as the Bible describes). Clearly this is wrong.

However, having a strong reverence for God's communicated Word and placing it as a high authority in our lives is not idolatry but it is worship and reverence of God. When His Word says that he magnifies His Word above His name, this means that God places a higher value on His instructions rather than just His own name. This is because God values love because God is love. Jesus (God) says if you love me, keep my commandments. God's Word is kind of like a love letter that we cherish, because it comes from God and we want to follow what He tells us because we love Him.

Let me give you an example:

If a man was engaged to a woman halfway around the world, and they truly loved each other deeply, and she received a love letter from him, what would be her response?

She would cherish the love letter because it comes from him. If he had instructions for her on the process of them getting together, she would want to do them as a means to be with him because she loves him.

Now, if she was not right in the head, and or she snapped mentally or something, she may start to talk to the letter as if it was her
fiancé and she may want to kiss the letter, and take the letter out on dinner dates, and talk to the letter like it was an actual person.

Then we have a major problem and it's time to pray for her, and love her with the love of God.
Note: The world would simply just call the white coats and have her locked up.

Anyways, men today love titles, and no doubt God loves titles, too. But unlike men, God teaches us that love is more important than any name and that love is expressed by obedience to His Word and in rejoicing in the faith or truths that are a result of His Word. God also wants us to think about the truths He reveals to us and to trust in them. To make these truths the most important thing in our life after our worship and adoration of Him. For we know about God, and His ways from the Bible. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). If there was no Bible, we would have no faith.

Monna said:

What did the author mean?
"Bible?" - the Bible, certainly as we know it, didn't exist at the time.
"Jesus?" - Jesus was not known at the time either.

What the Holy Spirit may have hidden in the Psalm is one thing, what the author understood himself to mean quite another.

Other translations:
Complete Jewish Bible
I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your grace and truth; for you have made your word [even] greater than the whole of your reputation.
Revised Standard Version
I bow down toward thy holy temple and give thanks to thy name for thy steadfast love and thy faithfulness; for thou hast exalted above everything thy name and thy word.
Orthodox Jewish Bible
I will worship toward Thy Heikhal Kodesh, and praise Shmecha (Thy Name) for Thy chesed and for Thy emes; for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above Kol Shimcha (all Thy Name; Yn 1:1, 14 OJBC).
The Living Bible
I face your Temple as I worship, giving thanks to you for all your loving-kindness and your faithfulness, for your promises are backed by all the honor of your name.

"for you have made your word [even] greater than the whole of your reputation." Your reputation refers to what other people think of you. So one way of putting this phrase would be "You've outdone yourself through your word." or "Your word shows us that you are even greater than we thought."

And that last thought is indeed true. God is far greater than our concept of Him, and He is beyond our imagination. That is why He had to become incarnate - so we could see him in a manner we could begin to comprehend, and put him in a context (on earth) we could relate to. Even then, our understanding of him. our knowing him, continues to surprise and delight us the longer we spend time with him.

Click to expand...

There is a meaning of what the "word" means at the time it was written, and we should take note of that, but God also speaks with His Word prophetically, too. To ignore this is to ignore all the Messianic prophecies in His Word. So when we see the "word" (i.e. the communicated Word), we can refer to that today as the Bible because God knew that is the word that we would have today. This is not to erase what came before at all. We still regard how it was written back then, as well. I see the Word as if it has grown. It has changed form from what it used to be.

Carl Emerson said:

Hi there,

In the KJV we read the following

Psalm 138:2

2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Now some folks on CF believe this reference to 'thy word' is the bible.

In so doing they see the bible as being above God Himself.

I find it hard to see this as anything but idolatry.

Now I suspect the Hebrew does not convey this meaning and this is reflected in other translations.

The matter is further complicated by some believing the KJV translation is the final authority.

They believe that other translation were corrupted by leaning on manuscripts from Westcott and Hort who it is claimed were occultists.

I have always believed the "Word of God" is the 'going forth' of God's intent of heart in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and not the Bible, which although is given as our final authority in matters of truth, is a written word, not a living word without the Holy Spirit.

Your input appreciated...

Click to expand...

The thing is that the communicated Word (Which is progressive and changed throughout time) proceeds forth from God and it is not an isolated thing. The universe was created by the communicated Word. These words that God spoke to create everything come from God. They are the thoughts expressed by God in a communicated way. So while we do not regard the Bible as a magical object to bow down before without worshiping God and adoring Him as a spirit being, we do hold a very high regard for His Word because we would not know about God without His Word (the Bible), and we would not know how to worship Him without His Word (the Bible), and we would not know how to have eternal life without His Word (the Bible), and we would not know how to trust in Him by faith without His Word (the Bible), and we would not know how to love without His Word (the Bible), etc.

So when a believer magnifies God's Word above His name, He is trusting in God's communicated Word by faith by which He is able to have a true faith, love, trust, in God and in how to correctly worship Him. The Bible is like a mirror that reflects the glory of God. It helps us to adore and worship Him in spirit and in truth. Without the Bible and or any high regard for it, then we would be faithless because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Imagine if we just paid lip service to God and our hearts were dark and evil. We just magnified His name by singing all of God's names but there was no love of God within us. This would not be true worship of God. For if we had no love for God, and we did not obey Him, and we were steeped in a life of sin, we really would show that we are not worshiping God at all, but we are just paying lip service. God wants true worship. This is when we totally sell out to following what His Word says. When we truly obey God, we will truly sing and praise His name in spirit and in truth. This is what magnifying His Word above His name means.

Here is the context (Which is even in corrupted Modern Translations):


This is saying that when others who hear (obey) the words that come from the mouth of the Lord, they will truly sing from their heart and love God and adore Him.

Yes, there is a double meaning to Psalms 138:2. It also refers to the "Living Word", as well. But Jesus tells us that we are to abide in Him, and we are to abide in His words. It's not just one or the other. I like John 15:10 (Which most Christians hate today).

"If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

Jesus obeyed the Father's commands. Jesus spoke and did everything the Father told him to do. We are told in Scripture to follow Christ's example. Meaning, we are to obey Jesus and His commands. Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:13). Oh but wait a minute. That's thinking about the communicated Word too much, right? Nope. God wants us to think on His Word and to glorify Him by meditating on His Word, and obeying it. That's not Bible idolatry, but it is merely how we have faith. Many in the Charismatic movement or New Age (Liberal) Christianity movement have gotten away from the Bible and they do not want us to focus too much on God's Word or they claim it is bible idolatry (When this is not the case at all).

Stop and think for a moment. Did God say to Abraham that he was being idolatrous with His communicated Word, when he was obeying God in sacrificing his son Isaac? Was Noah being idolatrous with the communicated Word when he built an Ark? Surely not. Abraham was blessed by his trust and obedience to God. Noah and his family were saved by his obedience to God. One could say that these men of God could have been idolatrous in regarding the Lord's words and in taking them too seriously, but we as believers know better.