How Could God allow this?

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Reign2020 said:
When a judge sentences a man to death for his heinous crimes, can the judge be held liable for murder since he was the one who ordered his execution? Did the judge break any law?

If the judge is also an executioner and he killed tens of thousands of men for their crimes, is he a killer? Is he above the law or merely upholding the law?

If the judge is also the one to design and build a guillotine as an instrument of his punishment, is he evil?

Nazi Germany executed laws that have since been viewed as unrighteous. Often people were summarily executed in the streets by the Gestapo, so they were acting as both Judge and Executioner. Also they designed the gas chambers to execute them.

The reason they are viewed as evil is because God has given us basic laws that govern not only individuals but the leaders who enforce them.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Either God gave satan the authority [which is false] OR people unwittingly give him the authority.

And in the case of satanists--- they do openly give him the authority.

Ellicot's commentary on Matthew 4:9
9) All these things will I give thee.—St. Luke’s addition, “For that is (has been) delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will I give it,” is full of significance. The offer made by the Tempter rested on the apparent evidence of the world’s history. The rulers of the world, its Herods and its Cæsars, seemed to have attained their eminence by trampling the laws of God under foot, and accepting Evil as the Lord and Master of the world. In part, the claim is allowed by our Lord’s language and that of his Apostles. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30). His hosts are “the world-rulers (κοσμοκράτορας) of darkness” (Ephesians 6:12). In this case the temptation is no longer addressed to the sense of Sonship, but to the love of power. To be a King like other kings, mighty to deliver His people from their oppressors, and achieve the glory which the prophets had predicted for the Christ;—this was possible for Him if only He would go beyond the self-imposed limits of accepting whatsoever His Father ordered for Him.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary on Jude 9

railing accusation—Greek, "judgment of blasphemy," or evil-speaking. Peter said, Angels do not, in order to avenge themselves, rail at dignities, though ungodly, when they have to contend with them: Jude says that the archangel Michael himself did not rail even at the time when he fought with the devil, the prince of evil spirits—not from fear of him, but from reverence of God, whose delegated power in this world Satan once had, and even in some degree still has. From the word "disputed," or debated in controversy, it is plain it was a judicial contest.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Barnes' Notes on the Bible Daniel 10:13

If this idea is admitted; if it is believed that angels do thus preside over particular states, this language would properly express that fact. Gesenius (Lexicon) explains it in this passage as denoting the "chiefs, princes, and angels; i. e., the archangels acting as patrons and advocates of particular nations before God." That this is the proper meaning here as deduced from the words is apparent, for

(a) it is an angel that is speaking, and it would seem most natural to suppose that he had encountered one of his own rank;

(b) the mention of Michael who came to his aid - a name which, as we shall see, properly denotes an angel, leads to the same conclusion;

(c) it accords, also, with the prevailing belief on the subject.

Undoubtedly, one who takes into view all the circumstances referred to in this passage would most naturally understand this of an angelic being, having some kind of jurisdiction over the kingdom of Persia. What was the character of this "prince," however, whether he was a good or bad angel, is not intimated by the language. It is only implied that he had a chieftainship, or some species of guardian care over that kingdom - watching over its interests and directing its affairs. As he offered resistance, however, to this heavenly messenger on his way to Daniel, as it was necessary to counteract his plans, and as the aid of Michael was required to overcome his opposition, the fair construction is, that he belonged to the class of evil angels.

Jamesone5 · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
Ellicot's commentary on Matthew 4:9
9) All these things will I give thee.—St. Luke’s addition, “For that is (has been) delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will I give it,” is full of significance. The offer made by the Tempter rested on the apparent evidence of the world’s history. The rulers of the world, its Herods and its Cæsars, seemed to have attained their eminence by trampling the laws of God under foot, and accepting Evil as the Lord and Master of the world. In part, the claim is allowed by our Lord’s language and that of his Apostles. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30). His hosts are “the world-rulers (κοσμοκράτορας) of darkness” (Ephesians 6:12). In this case the temptation is no longer addressed to the sense of Sonship, but to the love of power. To be a King like other kings, mighty to deliver His people from their oppressors, and achieve the glory which the prophets had predicted for the Christ;—this was possible for Him if only He would go beyond the self-imposed limits of accepting whatsoever His Father ordered for Him.

You seem to be all over the place in your arguments; Here is one thing you said that made sense:

Believing that the Lord is omnipotent, omniscient and Lord of all is not some kind of "gotcha" as some have suggested, but rather gives one peace knowing Jesus has it all under control. ---ZNP

You have to get back to the fact that Jesus Christ is in control and satan and his demons have no more control than we elect to give them. Go back to your Bible and read it with the Holy Spirit and then you questions will be answered.

As for me, I am sufficiently through with this debate that is going nowhere.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible Revelation 12:8

neither was their place found any more in heaven; in the Roman empire; or "his place", as some copies and versions: this was the time of the judgment of the world, or of the empire as Pagan; Satan the prince of the world, who had long governed in it, was now cast out of all power and authority in it, and all the idol gods in whom he was worshipped, with all the idolatrous priests; nor were there any more any Heathen emperors, for after Constantine's time there was only Julian the apostate, and who reigned but a little while; and after Theodosius, who cleared the empire of Paganism, there never was any, and there is reason to believe there never will be.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
You seem to be all over the place in your arguments; Here is one thing you said that made sense:

Believing that the Lord is omnipotent, omniscient and Lord of all is not some kind of "gotcha" as some have suggested, but rather gives one peace knowing Jesus has it all under control. ---ZNP

You have to get back to the fact that Jesus Christ is in control and satan and his demons have no more control than we elect to give them. Go back to your Bible and read it with the Holy Spirit and then you questions will be answered.

As for me, I am sufficiently through with this debate that is going nowhere.

Answer my questions! You accused me of avoiding answering your question even though I had answered it. You simply didn't understand that. I spelled it out for you in even simpler terms. You are a hypocrite. You accuse others of avoiding your questions and this is now the 5th time I have to ask you to answer these questions. You are an injurious and insulting person implying they are Satanists because they don't agree with your interpretation. So, Answer the questions and educate us, all of us.

Answer the questions (5th request)
1. Why would the archangel Michael not dare to bring a railing accusation against the devil and instead says "the Lord rebuke thee"?

2. In Daniel why does he refer to "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" who can withstand an angel sent from God?

3. What place did Satan have in heaven? It says it was no longer found once the Man child was raptured, so what was his place in heaven prior to that?

Jamesone5 · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
Answer my questions! You accused me of avoiding answering your question even though I had answered it. You simply didn't understand that. I spelled it out for you in even simpler terms. You are a hypocrite. You accuse others of avoiding your questions and this is now the 5th time I have to ask you to answer these questions. You are an injurious and insulting person implying they are Satanists because they don't agree with your interpretation. So, Answer the questions and educate us, all of us.

Answer the questions (5th request)
1. Why would the archangel Michael not dare to bring a railing accusation against the devil and instead says "the Lord rebuke thee"?

2. In Daniel why does he refer to "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" who can withstand an angel sent from God?

3. What place did Satan have in heaven? It says it was no longer found once the Man child was raptured, so what was his place in heaven prior to that?

Wow! You seem to be so contrary now to what you said a couple of days ago. Now you are demanding that I answer your questions?

Believing that the Lord is omnipotent, omniscient and Lord of all is not some kind of "gotcha" as some have suggested, but rather gives one peace knowing Jesus has it all under control. ---ZNP

"Educate" is from reading the Bible---don't you know?

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Wow! You seem to be so contrary now to what you said a couple of days ago. Now you are demanding that I answer your questions?

Believing that the Lord is omnipotent, omniscient and Lord of all is not some kind of "gotcha" as some have suggested, but rather gives one peace knowing Jesus has it all under control. ---ZNP

"Educate" is from reading the Bible---don't you know?

7th time this hypocrite has dodged the questions.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Either God gave satan the authority [which is false] OR people unwittingly give him the authority.

And in the case of satanists--- they do openly give him the authority.

Matt 4:9 Ellicot’s commentary

The rulers of the world, its Herods and its Cæsars, seemed to have attained their eminence by trampling the laws of God under foot, and accepting Evil as the Lord and Master of the world. In part, the claim is allowed by our Lord’s language and that of his Apostles. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30). His hosts are “the world-rulers (κοσμοκράτορας) of darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).

Barnes Notes on the Bible

Satan claimed a right to bestow on whom he pleased, and with considerable justice. They were excessively wicked; and with no small degree of propriety, therefore, he asserted his claim to give them away. This temptation had much plausibility

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

"for that is," or "has been," "delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will I give it." Was this wholly false? That were not like Satan's unusual policy, which is to insinuate his lies under cover of some truth. What truth, then, is there here? We answer, Is not Satan thrice called by our Lord Himself, "the prince of this world" (Joh 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)? Does not the apostle call him "the god of this world" (2Co 4:4)? And still further, is it not said that Christ came to destroy by His death "him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb 2:14)? No doubt these passages only express men's voluntary subjection to the rule of the wicked one while they live, and his power to surround death to them, when it comes, with all the terrors of the wages of sin. But as this is a real and terrible sway, so all Scripture represents men as righteously sold under it. In this sense he speaks what is not devoid of truth, when he says, "All this is delivered unto me."

Educate us, we all obviously got it wrong, or like Satanists we have given Satan the authority. So we are all awaiting your answers to the 3 questions.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 15, 2020

Guojing said:
Faith and love are 2 different concepts so I don't understand why you keep lumping the 2 together.

I don’t. But a father and a mother are two different people and still we lump them together as “parents.”

Faith, love, hope, courage, patience, kindness are all matters that either express themselves as choices or they aren’t really there and we’re fooling ourselves.

Many think faith is merely giving “mental ascent” to an idea and requires no change of choices. This isn’t real faith. Faith without an outworking is dead.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
Matt 4:9 Ellicot’s commentary

The rulers of the world, its Herods and its Cæsars, seemed to have attained their eminence by trampling the laws of God under foot, and accepting Evil as the Lord and Master of the world. In part, the claim is allowed by our Lord’s language and that of his Apostles. Satan is “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30). His hosts are “the world-rulers (κοσμοκράτορας) of darkness” (Ephesians 6:12).

Barnes Notes on the Bible

Satan claimed a right to bestow on whom he pleased, and with considerable justice. They were excessively wicked; and with no small degree of propriety, therefore, he asserted his claim to give them away. This temptation had much plausibility

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

"for that is," or "has been," "delivered unto me, and to whomsoever I will I give it." Was this wholly false? That were not like Satan's unusual policy, which is to insinuate his lies under cover of some truth. What truth, then, is there here? We answer, Is not Satan thrice called by our Lord Himself, "the prince of this world" (Joh 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)? Does not the apostle call him "the god of this world" (2Co 4:4)? And still further, is it not said that Christ came to destroy by His death "him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb 2:14)? No doubt these passages only express men's voluntary subjection to the rule of the wicked one while they live, and his power to surround death to them, when it comes, with all the terrors of the wages of sin. But as this is a real and terrible sway, so all Scripture represents men as righteously sold under it. In this sense he speaks what is not devoid of truth, when he says, "All this is delivered unto me."

Educate us, we all obviously got it wrong, or like Satanists we have given Satan the authority. So we are all awaiting your answers to the 3 questions.

Glad you weren’t yelling at me.

Jamesone5 · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
7th time this hypocrite has dodged the questions.

From nothing more than you opinions of what some unsourced verses are telling us?

And then, when you do not bother to read what these excerpts from commentaries you post are saying? Instead. just highlight what seems to be relevant to your argument?

Seems you cannot find this peace because some random voice on the internet {me] will not agree with you.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
From nothing more than you opinions of what some unsourced verses are telling us?

8th time this hypocrite who accuses others of dodging questions has dodged these questions. He tells me I am wrong but won't expound on these verses. I have also quoted expositions by Gill, Barnes, Jamieson -- Faussett Brown, Ellicot. So we are all wrong, waiting, begging, pleading for his insight.

For the 8th time, I am asking for your exposition of these Bible verses (I have given you the references multiple times, but will do it again)

Answer the questions (8th request)
1. Why would the archangel Michael not dare to bring a railing accusation against the devil and instead says "the Lord rebuke thee"? (Jude 9)

2. In Daniel why does he refer to "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" who can withstand an angel sent from God? (Daniel 10:13)

3. What place did Satan have in heaven? It says it was no longer found once the Man child was raptured, so what was his place in heaven prior to that? (Rev 12:8)

Jamesone5 · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
8th time this hypocrite who accuses others of dodging questions has dodged these questions. He tells me I am wrong but won't expound on these verses. I have also quoted expositions by Gill, Barnes, Jamieson -- Faussett Brown, Ellicot. So we are all wrong, waiting, begging, pleading for his insight.

For the 8th time, I am asking for your exposition of these Bible verses (I have given you the references multiple times, but will do it again)

Answer the questions (8th request)
1. Why would the archangel Michael not dare to bring a railing accusation against the devil and instead says "the Lord rebuke thee"? (Jude 9)

2. In Daniel why does he refer to "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" who can withstand an angel sent from God? (Daniel 10:13)

3. What place did Satan have in heaven? It says it was no longer found once the Man child was raptured, so what was his place in heaven prior to that? (Rev 12:8)

I just have to laugh at your pleading and obvious desperately waiting for my insight for the "we", as if you speak for everyone.

Btw, I have my answers to most of your questions already , but chose not to share them with you as no doubt you will do more foolish arguing. And this verse seem to depict what I am up against.

1 Timothy 6:4
he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,

Dorothy Mae · Apr 15, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
Wow! You seem to be so contrary now to what you said a couple of days ago. Now you are demanding that I answer your questions?

Believing that the Lord is omnipotent, omniscient and Lord of all is not some kind of "gotcha" as some have suggested, but rather gives one peace knowing Jesus has it all under control. ---ZNP

"Educate" is from reading the Bible---don't you know?

I sort of feel sorry for posters (not you) who can only quote what others say and have no thoughts on their own. What they “think”
is simply borrowed material. Must be boring.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
I sort of feel sorry for posters (not you) who can only quote what others say and have no thoughts on their own. What they “think”
is simply borrowed material. Must be boring.

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

When Satan came to Jesus the Lord of Glory saw no shame in quoting the Bible back at the accuser of the brethren.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man also shall be ashamed of him, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

You’re posting either a totally disconnected response or you’re twisting my words. God wants us to love Him with our minds which means we need to think. If all we can is quote what others write, we’re not doing that.

When Satan came to Jesus the Lord of Glory saw no shame in quoting the Bible back at the accuser of the brethren.

One, no one here ought to be thought of as Satan. You’re making a mistake there. Two, he didn’t go around merely quoting scripture to his disciples. With them he thought and taught.

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You’re posting either a totally disconnected response or you’re twisting my words. God wants us to love Him with our minds which means we need to think. If all we can is quote what others write, we’re not doing that.

One, no one here ought to be thought of as Satan. You’re making a mistake there. Two, he didn’t go around merely quoting scripture to his disciples. With them he thought and taught.

What are you talking about? This thread is about "Why would God allow this?" Under that umbrella why would God allow the accuser of the brethren to accuse them? Because they learn to overcome Him, that is why. An example of how to respond to the accuser of the Brethren is given in the temptation of Jesus by Satan. Satan tempts the Lord with the word and He in return responds with the word.

No one should feel the need to be unique, or speak some new thing. In fact, doing that might simply be a cover for being ashamed of the Lord and His words in this adulterous and evil generation.

Besides, when we speak the Lord's word
we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: 1Cor 2:7

We don't need to speak "our wisdom", we speak "God's wisdom".

ZNP · Apr 15, 2020

ZNP said:
So I would argue that our life is like a computer simulation in many ways.

We began by looking at simulated evil and seeing that evil that takes place on a computer simulation is not really considered evil. In the same way our human life is nothing but a vapor compared to eternity.

But that is not the point of the computer simulation, the point is
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Overcoming the accuser of the brethren is an example of how we could be to the praise of His glory.

How Could God allow this?

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