Did God send this virus into the world

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
You are reading the heresy of free will into it. You'll agree with me once you overcome this.

Overcome what? I already have been down that path, and chosen truth over error.

JacksBratt · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
There are false Christs. Jesus is the truth. If we create a false definition of him, we create an idol.

Are you saying that I am worshiping a false Christ?

Dave L · Apr 13, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Are you saying that I am worshiping a false Christ?

One of us is.

Dave L · Apr 13, 2020

renniks said:
Overcome what? I already have been down that path, and chosen truth over error.

But the church calls it heresy.

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
But the church calls it heresy.

What church? And what is heresy? You lost me.

Dave L · Apr 13, 2020

renniks said:
What church? And what is heresy? You lost me.

If you begin with the Ecumenical Creeds, they define what the historic Church believes. Sooner or later groups began dropping off holding views that contradicted the creeds. The Catholics dropped out on the heresy of free will, embracing it in their sacramental system of works. Luther, then Calvin and the rest of the Reformers re-claimed it proving the Catholic Church was a heretical institution among other things.

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
If you begin with the Ecumenical Creeds, they define what the historic Church believes. Sooner or later groups began dropping off holding views that contradicted the creeds. The Catholics dropped out on the heresy of free will, embracing it in their sacramental system of works. Luther, then Calvin and the rest of the Reformers re-claimed it proving the Catholic Church was a heretical institution among other things.

Go back to the first church fathers, before 400, they all believe in free will. Augustine was the first one to bring in determinism.

Dave L · Apr 13, 2020

renniks said:
Go back to the first church fathers, before 400, they all believe in free will. Augustine was the first one to bring in determinism.

Paul didn't. Nor did any others in their writings. You read free will into their writings thinking they did.

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
Paul didn't. Nor did any others in their writings. You read free will into their writings thinking they did.

And I suppose that Irenaeus just forgot what Polycarp learned from John about everything being predestined? I guess I'll go with "no" on that.

"Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do." Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37)

Dave L · Apr 13, 2020

renniks said:
And I suppose that Irenaeus just forgot what Polycarp learned from John about everything being predestined? I guess I'll go with "no" on that.

"Men are possessed of free will, and endowed with the faculty of making a choice. It is not true, therefore, that some are by nature good, and others bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God. But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do." Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37)

How does this prove the church did not condemn free will as heresy in 431 at Ephesus? Look how crazy most of the early commentators were.

FreeinChrist · Apr 13, 2020

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from Current News & Events, which requires a link to a credible news site in the OP, to the Junk Drawer.

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
How does this prove the church did not condemn free will as heresy in 431 at Ephesus? Look how crazy most of the early commentators were.

Crazy? How were they crazy?

renniks · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
How does this prove the church did not condemn free will as heresy in 431 at Ephesus? Look how crazy most of the early commentators were.

And that was only one interpretation of Free Will declared heresy, by the Catholic Church by the way...palugius doesn't speak for arminians. He supposedly believed that a person could be sinless on their own.... Arminians don't believe that at all.
But since we don't actually have his writings, what he actually believed in and what he was said to believe may have been two different things.

Halbhh · Apr 13, 2020

Dan1988 said:
How do we answer unbelievers who ask Christians, why our loving God would (allow or send) this microscopic enemy to reek such devastating havoc on the world.

There's a lot of disagreement among professing Christians on, whether God sent this virus or whether it was manufactured in a lab and sent out to be used as a weapon of war. Or whether it's neither of those and it's just a random quirk of nature.

I'm not claiming to know the exact origin, but I do believe that God is sovereign over all of His creation. And nothing happens apart from His predetermined will.

So even if it was created by someone will evil intentions, God still uses evil to accomplish His good purpose. I found this very hard to accept, until I realized that I was trying to conform God to my own image.

I can't think of the Bible passages right now, which say that God has only revealed a very limited amount about Himself to us at this time. But He will reveal a lot more in eternity so as hard as it is, we just have to keep trusting in Him.

We learn in genesis chapter 3 why these bodies die of cancer, flu, accidents, illnesses of various kinds. Storms, earthquakes....

Everyone -- A 100% fatality rate.

But we are not our bodies.

JacksBratt · Apr 13, 2020

Dave L said:
One of us is.

No we're not.. we just have different views on what He taught....
At least I'm not saying that you are worshiping a false god.. Are you saying that I am?

Dan1988 · Apr 13, 2020

Kaon said:
Many, many Christians have given us warning about institution, antichrists and our coming demise - but even Christians eat their young, especially if it is because of an idea or action that is against Status Quo.

We have let so many people suffer a Pophets End (imprisonment, torture, derision, oppression, subjugation) simply because we believe our oppressors and our institutions more than our own minds and our Father.

Now, just as was told, we are easily petrified with fear, and we are setting up the framework for our grandchildren to be eager slaves of a beast system we worked hard to bring to reality.

And, people wonder why there are no more prophets of modernity... The Word of God even said don't cast pearls before swine: Who in their right mind would warn us and then face our ignorant wrath for it? Unfortunately for us, prophecy and warnings would be wasted on the human lot.

It's too late to change, and this was the case long before the "virus".

I also believe it's too late to stop the Antichrist system from enslaving the whole world.
The moral standard of the average person has fallen to an all time low. I read an article, which compared the moral standards of secular unbelievers in the 1950's and it showed that they they had higher moral standards than today's 'Christians'.
Today, the average Christian accepts things like the murder of unborn children and many other things that unbelievers would have rejected in the 1950'.
God gives us what we want, so we get corrupt leaders and the breakdown of the family unit. The family unit has been under attack for decades, so it's all about 'self' these days and that's exactly what the social engineers wanted.
It's easy to control an individual, so they wanted to get rid of the family unit and they have succeeded. I can't see a way back form here.

Dan1988 · Apr 14, 2020

ZNP said:
I think the word the Bible uses instead of havoc is calamity.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Why would God allow Satan to attack Job? It results in the growth and perfection of Job's faith.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Some argue that just because evil takes place doesn’t mean God gave his approval.

Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Some argue this is natural. God repudiates that. He is God, nothing happens without His command.

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Lamentations 3:37

There are specific examples in History that show God uses these things to shame those who are proud and to reveal His glory.

14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. Exodus 9:14-16

Some argue that a loving God wouldn't do this. God disagrees.

6 And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall die of a great pestilence. Jeremiah 21:6

The proper response to a pandemic is to humbler yourself before God. Blaming others is not humbling yourself.

13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2Chronicles

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith Jehovah of hosts, then will I send the curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings; yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

Yes, God made a righteous man to be sin

21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

One effect of this pandemic is a collapse in global trade, the stock market and widespread unemployment.

Isaiah 23:8 Who hath purposed this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honorable of the earth? 9 Jehovah of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, to bring into contempt all the honorable of the earth.

I appreciate your effort to include the above scriptures. All of them show that God is most certainly sovereign over everything that happens.

Christians are very divided on this question, most believe that He created everything and then sat back and allowed it to randomly unravel.

Our understanding of who God is, effects our whole worldview. Christians have very different views about the Gospel itself, even though the Gospel was recorded in plain language.

I heard that there's something like 40,000 different denominations, each one claims to posses the correct theology. Christ established His Church as one body of believers, but we find many are bitterly opposed to each other.

It's a sad indictment on the Church as a whole, it makes it harder to share the Gospel with unbelievers. They see all the various denominations rubbishing each other, so it's no wonder they're not interested.

Dave L · Apr 14, 2020

JacksBratt said:
No we're not.. we just have different views on what He taught....
At least I'm not saying that you are worshiping a false god.. Are you saying that I am?

If Jesus is truth, a false definition = another Jesus.

Dave L · Apr 14, 2020

renniks said:
And that was only one interpretation of Free Will declared heresy, by the Catholic Church by the way...palugius doesn't speak for arminians. He supposedly believed that a person could be sinless on their own.... Arminians don't believe that at all.
But since we don't actually have his writings, what he actually believed in and what he was said to believe may have been two different things.

Pelagius and Arminius end up in the same place. Trusting in free will instead of Christ to save them.

Dave L · Apr 14, 2020

renniks said:
Crazy? How were they crazy?

They were confused. As scripture developed clear cut doctrines formed and we no see longer see through a glass darkly as they did. But now face to face.

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