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So what you’re saying, I think, is that God plans you save some that He has no intention of saving.
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A Wonderful Plan
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RaymondG
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There is no plan for the believers. In fact....they would all be left behind, to show the plan to one who is lost. Who, once reaching their destination, will still be in need of the directions? Directions are for those that are lost.
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- Apr 5, 2007
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I didn’t say that I did. I said that there aren’t endless possibilities.
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topher694
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The OP stated that God has a wonderful plan for us. That is the honest truth.
You said: "It is a lie to suggest that if one becomes a Christian everything will be wonderful."
That is also true, but NOT what the OP said.
Both can be summed up in John 16:33,
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
That is the honest truth and the best way to evangelize. Not ignore the difficulties that people face but to encourage them (and demonstrate) that there is peace and the power to overcome in Jesus.
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I am not sure whether any of us should be speculating on whether or not God has a plan for those who do not yet believe. Some things are best left to the wisdom and judgement of God.
We can easily fall into the trap of assuming that others are undeserving of God's grace and inevitably our attitudes will be reflected not just in our thoughts, but also our words and actions.
Jesus said that whoever exalts himself will be humbled. We do not wish to become like the pharisees who "shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces" where "they themselves do not enter, nor will they let in those who wish to enter". We should also be extremely cautious that our words and actions do not become an obstacle for those who are searching for faith, or those who are weak in faith, so we do not become guilty of causing them to stumble.
We can easily fall into the trap of assuming that others are undeserving of God's grace and inevitably our attitudes will be reflected not just in our thoughts, but also our words and actions.
Jesus said that whoever exalts himself will be humbled. We do not wish to become like the pharisees who "shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces" where "they themselves do not enter, nor will they let in those who wish to enter". We should also be extremely cautious that our words and actions do not become an obstacle for those who are searching for faith, or those who are weak in faith, so we do not become guilty of causing them to stumble.
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- Mar 10, 2017
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Sorry but it is not the honest truth. Not everyone will be saved and an eternity separated from God is not a 'wonderful' future.
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That’s not true for those vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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1. It would be something only God would know -- by definition.
2. God is the one that gives us the marching orders to take the gospel to everyone
3. It is God that says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Your argument is that "God made them for destruction" but that is not true.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
They fitted themselves for destruction.. that is "their action"
God's action is that He "endured with much longsuffering "
With the result that HE could say
Matthew 23 with "How I WANTED ... but you would not"
Your argument is that God should not say "He did everything He knew to do" and "what more was there for me to do" when He sees failure -- Isaiah 5:4
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Romans 9 -- the vessels that fitted themselves for destruction -- are "God's OWN" in Romans 9
29 And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
In John 1 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"
God says of that situation - - "He did everything He knew to do" and "what more was there for me to do" when He sees their failure -- Isaiah 5:4
===============
by contrast in Calvinism's false narrative -- it is GOD that arbitrarily chooses some and not others - so then in that context - just as you point out - it is not at all righteous/just/right for him to talk about his wonderful gospel when speaking to those HE KNOWS HE has MADE for destruction and then claim that doing so is "So loving THE WORLD" where in a false-advertising kind of way He goes on to claim that "whosoever receives" him has everlasting life... not at all the "WHAT ELSE was I supposed to do"? Not at all the "I have done everything" and nothing remains for me to do that I have not done for them" -- in the case of those He knows he made "FOR destruction"
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- Apr 5, 2007
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There you go with your cutting and pasting again. That’s not how hermeneutics works.
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That's "the quote" of John 3:16 and Isaiah 5:4 you are complaining about.
I am just using the "laser pointer" to point to the very details you refuse to respond to - because you know that is the blind spot in the model that Calvinism sets up.
And it is in fact the key ... the solution to the puzzle you present for the group.
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topher694
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You keep moving the goal post. No, not everyone will be saved, but it IS God's will that they would be. And God does have a wonderful plan for their lives, their choice doesn't God's will, only their outcome.
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topher694
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If you are saying God created some people just for His wrath, then I will always disagree.
If you are saying some people choose to look at it that way and aren't able to fathom what I'm saying, well then the proof that you are correct is already in this thread.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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prepared themselves.
not "prepared by God"
And in Rom 9 these are the "HIS OWN" of John 1 that ... fail.
James 1: 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
2 Peter 3 "NOT WILLING for ANY to perish"
All the while Calvinism is trying to "pin it on God" -- the Bible says that idea is not true.
"He did everything He knew to do" and "what more was there for me to do that I have not done" when He sees failure -- Isaiah 5:4
Is 5:4
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Please read my first post in this thread post 4.
In it I challenged what God's wonderful plan for the nonchristian.
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