How Could God allow this?

Guojing said:

So back to my original question, why do babies die before they could even sin?

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Because death entered the world. If Adam has resisted, babies (and the world) would not have suffered but benefitted for what they also didn’t do.

Dorothy Mae said:

The sin of that first couple brought death into the world. So with few exceptions we all die.

However, our sin also affects our lives and future to include eternity unless we repent and are forgiven.

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Well said.

Dorothy Mae said:

Because death entered the world. If Adam has resisted, babies (and the world) would not have suffered but benefitted for what they also didn’t do.

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So we are both in agreement, Adam's sin brought death to all his descendants, even those who could not knowingly have committed any sins of their own.

Dorothy Mae said:

The sin of that first couple brought death into the world. So with few exceptions we all die.

However, our sin also affects our lives and future to include eternity unless we repent and are forgiven.

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You don't seem to understand what Paul was trying to accomplish in Romans 5:12-19.

If Adam's sin was that powerful in condemning all of us to death, even if we did not do any sin, how much more would Jesus's obedience guarantee all who receive his righteousness are "condemned into righteousness", even if we did not do any righteous deeds.

Guojing said:

So we are both in agreement, Adam's sin brought death to all his descendants, even those who could not knowingly have committed any sins of their own.

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Since Adam, all die.

Guojing said:

You don't seem to understand what Paul was trying to accomplish in Romans 5:12-19.

If Adam's sin was that powerful in condemning all of us to death, even if we did not do any sin, how much more would Jesus's obedience guarantee all who receive his righteousness are "condemned into righteousness", even if we did not do any righteous deeds.

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All of what you said I agree with, except that you are neglecting the context, in that, this grace of salvation is ours only by faith in Jesus. If that were not so, all people would be saved.

Faith must result in a new life to be acceptable to God.

Romans 6:1-4 (WEB)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:21-22 (WEB)
21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

Blessings

setst777 said:

Since Adam, all die.


All of what you said I agree with, except that you are neglecting the context, in that, this grace of salvation is ours only by faith in Jesus. If that were not so, all people would be saved.

Faith must result in a new life to be acceptable to God.

Romans 6:1-4 (WEB)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:21-22 (WEB)
21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

Blessings

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I already stated that you have to receive his righteousness by faith. I am not advocating universalism.

Guojing said:

I already stated that you have to receive his righteousness by faith. I am not advocating universalism.

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Okay then, let us summarize:

• Since Adam all die.
• We all die because when Adam sinned Paradise and the Tree of Life was taken away, just as Scripture states.
• When innocents die, or those who put their faith in God die, that does not mean such persons are being punished or condemned by God.
• By faith in Jesus we have the promise to enter Paradise and eat of the Tree of Life.
• Faith is not empty.
• All of us, since Adam, have sinned against God’s Holy Law. Our sins separate us from God, from life of God. We are naturally slaves to our flesh, fulfilling its desires as part of this corrupt world, which is death and separation from God (Romans 3:1-20, Romans 6:19-21)
• God offers His saving grace to all people through the Gospel (John 3:13-21; Romans 3:21-31)
• We personally access God’s saving grace and all His promises by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:1-4; Luke 24:47)
• The substance of this faith is symbolized in Baptism (Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2:9-14… Colossians 3:1-14),
• Faith is demonstrated by firstly: following the command to repent, which is, a change of our mind, purpose, and life through knowledge of the Gospel, leading us to commit to die to, put to death, deny, put off, sacrifice, crucify, or renounce, the old master (the flesh); and then,
• Faith is demonstrated by secondly: put our faith in, or receive, Jesus as Lord whom we now commit to listen to and follow to receive the new life of salvation (Romans 6:21-22; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-28, 1 John 2:4-6). Repent and Believe: Mark 1:14-15; Acts 20:21. To repent and believe is central to what NT refers to as “The Faith,” which is, the Gospel Faith by which God saves us. This is what Baptism represents: Romans 6:1-4
• After believing, just as described, the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell in us and work out the will of God in our lives as we walk by, or reap to, the Spirit (John 7:37-39; Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:21-23; Galatians 3:14; Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-13) in sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8).
• The indwelling Spirit leads our faith commitment to Christ Jesus into freedom from sin’s power, and the victory to live a New Life of love. This New Life is synonymous with salvation from sin and death – for you cannot possess salvation from sin and death, you cannot possess a new life, if you are still a slave to any sin according to the Gospel (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-14; Hebrews 2:13-14).
• The NT calls this faith commitment to Christ “walking in the Spirit” or “reaping to the Spirit” or “living by the Spirit,” or “following Jesus. These are synonymous terms by which the Spirit indwells, leads, and guides us – only by faith in Jesus as Lord. This is the new life of sanctification (set apart) before God that Christ died for – dead to the old carnal master and now alive by following our Lord, Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:15-17). This New Life is a new creation, regeneration, or salvation as we faithfully follow Jesus. Please meditate on these Passages, and then, you decide: John 7:37-39; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:13-24; 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; 1 John 2:4-6; John 8:12.
• Through many trials and temptations we remain in a saving relationship with God by a continued Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, as described, to the end; this is the new life of walking in the Spirit until the end – this results in eternal life (1 Peter 1; Galatians 5:13-26; Matthew 10:38; John 10:27-28; 1 John 2:4-6; Galatians 5:13-24, 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; Galatians 6:7-10; Romans 6:22)
• The New Testament is the New Covenant between God and man – explained.
• The New Covenant contains God’s promises to mankind put into effect by the blood of Christ Jesus. God offers the grace of salvation, and all its promises, to all those who put their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord who saves them as they follow Him by faith (John 3:13-19). That is the Covenant.

Blessings

Guojing said:

So back to my original question, why do babies die before they could even sin?

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Already answered. Because the world is in a fallen state as a result of sin.

Guojing said:

You don't seem to understand what Paul was trying to accomplish in Romans 5:12-19.

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Try not to start your piece with an ad hominem. I likely understand it better than you do.

If Adam's sin was that powerful in condemning all of us to death, even if we did not do any sin, how much more would Jesus's obedience guarantee all who receive his righteousness are "condemned into righteousness", even if we did not do any righteous deeds.

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Adams sin wasn’t powerful. A metal sliver is not powerful, but in the wrong place it can cause irreparable damage. When a man does what God has forbidden, that act is not powerful. It does, however, have consequences.

The blood of Jesus doesn’t change matters because it’s powerful. It opens up the possibility for those who surrender and submit to God’s will to receive what Adam lost. It’s not a power struggle.

Dorothy Mae said:

Already answered. Because the world is in a fallen state as a result of sin.

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Whose sin? Adam's correct?

Dorothy Mae said:

Try not to start your piece with an ad hominem. I likely understand it better than you do.
Adams sin wasn’t powerful. A metal sliver is not powerful, but in the wrong place it can cause irreparable damage. When a man does what God has forbidden, that act is not powerful. It does, however, have consequences.

The blood of Jesus doesn’t change matters because it’s powerful. It opens up the possibility for those who surrender and submit to God’s will to receive what Adam lost. It’s not a power struggle.

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The first Adam was our federal head, just as the last Adam was too.

setst777 said:

Okay then, let us summarize:

• Since Adam all die.
• We all die because when Adam sinned Paradise and the Tree of Life was taken away, just as Scripture states.
• When innocents die, or those who put their faith in God die, that does not mean such persons are being punished or condemned by God.
• By faith in Jesus we have the promise to enter Paradise and eat of the Tree of Life.
• Faith is not empty.
• All of us, since Adam, have sinned against God’s Holy Law. Our sins separate us from God, from life of God. We are naturally slaves to our flesh, fulfilling its desires as part of this corrupt world, which is death and separation from God (Romans 3:1-20, Romans 6:19-21)
• God offers His saving grace to all people through the Gospel (John 3:13-21; Romans 3:21-31)
• We personally access God’s saving grace and all His promises by faith in Jesus (Romans 5:1-4; Luke 24:47)
• The substance of this faith is symbolized in Baptism (Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2:9-14… Colossians 3:1-14),
• Faith is demonstrated by firstly: following the command to repent, which is, a change of our mind, purpose, and life through knowledge of the Gospel, leading us to commit to die to, put to death, deny, put off, sacrifice, crucify, or renounce, the old master (the flesh); and then,
• Faith is demonstrated by secondly: put our faith in, or receive, Jesus as Lord whom we now commit to listen to and follow to receive the new life of salvation (Romans 6:21-22; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-28, 1 John 2:4-6). Repent and Believe: Mark 1:14-15; Acts 20:21. To repent and believe is central to what NT refers to as “The Faith,” which is, the Gospel Faith by which God saves us. This is what Baptism represents: Romans 6:1-4
• After believing, just as described, the Spirit of Christ comes to dwell in us and work out the will of God in our lives as we walk by, or reap to, the Spirit (John 7:37-39; Acts 5:32; John 14:15-17; John 14:21-23; Galatians 3:14; Galatians 6:7-9; Romans 8:12-13) in sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3-8).
• The indwelling Spirit leads our faith commitment to Christ Jesus into freedom from sin’s power, and the victory to live a New Life of love. This New Life is synonymous with salvation from sin and death – for you cannot possess salvation from sin and death, you cannot possess a new life, if you are still a slave to any sin according to the Gospel (Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-14; Hebrews 2:13-14).
• The NT calls this faith commitment to Christ “walking in the Spirit” or “reaping to the Spirit” or “living by the Spirit,” or “following Jesus. These are synonymous terms by which the Spirit indwells, leads, and guides us – only by faith in Jesus as Lord. This is the new life of sanctification (set apart) before God that Christ died for – dead to the old carnal master and now alive by following our Lord, Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:15-17). This New Life is a new creation, regeneration, or salvation as we faithfully follow Jesus. Please meditate on these Passages, and then, you decide: John 7:37-39; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:13-24; 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; 1 John 2:4-6; John 8:12.
• Through many trials and temptations we remain in a saving relationship with God by a continued Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, as described, to the end; this is the new life of walking in the Spirit until the end – this results in eternal life (1 Peter 1; Galatians 5:13-26; Matthew 10:38; John 10:27-28; 1 John 2:4-6; Galatians 5:13-24, 2 Corinthians 5:15-17; Galatians 6:7-10; Romans 6:22)
• The New Testament is the New Covenant between God and man – explained.
• The New Covenant contains God’s promises to mankind put into effect by the blood of Christ Jesus. God offers the grace of salvation, and all its promises, to all those who put their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord who saves them as they follow Him by faith (John 3:13-19). That is the Covenant.

Blessings

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As long as you agree that it was Adam's disobedience that caused all of us to suffer sin, and death, we are at the same page.

Question is if there is less evil in the world now that the economic system has come to a halt..

Guojing said:

As long as you agree that it was Adam's disobedience that caused all of us to suffer sin, and death, we are at the same page.

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I believe we agree if by “suffer sin” you mean that we inherit Adam’s free will and mind to disobey God – because we are all human, being offspring of Adam. That is the nature of man, just as it was the nature of 1/3 of God’s angels who disobeyed God and fell even after being in God’s Holy presence in Heaven since before the foundation of the world.

Here is my understanding from the Scriptures...

Did 1/3 of God’s angels who fell inherit the sin nature from someone?

Answer: No. Rather free will to make decisions was the nature of angels from the beginning. The first angel to sin was Lucifer (now Satan), but the other angels did not inherit Lucifer’s sin nature; rather, that was their nature. Giving a perfect being free will does not guarantee they will freely desire to obey everything commanded.

Sin entered the world initially through Adam. All humans have the same propensity to sin, being Adam's offspring. And because of Adam’s sin, Paradise was lost, and our bodies are subject to corruption and death, even innocent babies.

Because we have the same nature as Adam, all of us sin. So unless we repent and believe in Jesus we will not only die in the flesh, but also be separated from God for all eternity – body and spirit.

So why do babies also suffer death?

Answer: Death of itself is not condemnation. Babies die because Paradise was lost through Adam’s sin.

Consider Romans 5:12-17 as follows:

Romans 5:12-17 (WEB)
12 Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned. 13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.

Romans 7:7-8 (WEB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn’t have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn’t have known coveting, unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21] 8 But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

Therefore, a baby is innocent of committing any sin, since they knew no law - apart from the law, sin is dead.

Babies still are subject to death in the flesh. Babies cannot be charged with any sin, so although their bodies die because Paradise was lost due to Adam’s sin, they are not condemned to hell for Adam’s sin.

Yes, babies can die. You make a big point of this, but I am not sure why. We agree on this. We know babies die, and we know why that is the case.

But to say that babies receive the same punishment Adam received for his sin, is missing the point. Rather, Paradise was lost until each human on earth is tested – to see if their faith remains.

1 Peter 1:5-9 (KJV)
5 Who are kept by the power of God - through faith - unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through many temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end [result] of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

God only desires to dwell in Paradise with those who truly love Him and faithfully live in Him. That is why God put into effect the Gospel, and that is why the corrupted earth continues – that is God’s plan. Doesn’t God have a right to determine who will live with Him His Kingdom, and how He chose to accomplish this, without calling it punishment?

I do not feel punished by God because of Adam’s sin. I hope you don’t either. We have to take responsibility for our own lives before a holy God instead of blaming others for what we feel is punishment.

• Adam was the first human on earth, so sin entered the world through Adam.
• We inherit Adam's sin nature, but each man is condemned for his own sin unless he repents.
• When Adam sinned, Paradise was lost. So all now all die, having corruptible flesh, because of Adam's sin.
• Just like Adam sinned, we also sin.
• Just like 1/3 of all of God's angels sinned, we also sin.
• We humans possess free will, just like Adam and the Angels.
• All humans, just like Adam, are naturally prone to disobedience because of free will. We have the same nature as Adam to sin.
• Adam only had one law to keep - do not eat of the Tree of Knowledge. He couldn't keep that one law.
• Once God's Law (Mosaic Law) was put into writing, mankind now had many laws to keep.
• But because we have free will, and a natural inclination toward disobedience, mankind could never keep all those laws - although, at times, as a nation, the Jews did live righteously before God by faith, keeping His Laws, and God blessed them.
• The Law shows us the depth of our sinful condition. And so is our Tutor to bring us to Christ.

Blessings

ZNP said:

Is it righteous to judge man for sin if God caused man to sin?

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God didn’t cause humans to sin because they have free will. And while sinning can be a byproduct, free will still lets you get all sorts of awesome stuff.

So while “God caused free will, free will caused sin, thus God caused sin” is technically true, it’s not complete. You will also have to account for the good side of free will.

God does not judge a person by her/his sins, he judges whether you have had truthfully reflected your wrongdoings and honestly repented. After all, Jesus said he came for sinners.

setst777 said:

I do not feel punished by God because of Adam’s sin. I hope you don’t either. We have to take responsibility for our own lives before a holy God instead of blaming others for what we feel is punishment.

Blessings

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God rejected all of us because we receive Adam's sin, that is already a punishment.

If you don't want to accept that, you won't be able to accept that God now accepts us because we receive Jesus's obedience.

ZNP said:

Obviously you don't think God is responsible for the choices man makes.

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No - God chose to let us choose.
Did he put an electric fence around the tree to administer shocks, and pain, to Eve when she took the fruit?
Did he sit on Adam's chest, prise his mouth open and force feed him the fruit?

He can bring good from our bad choices, or even allow something to happen so that we don't go through with them. But he won't force us to do something.

ZNP said:

This is the free will argument, God didn't create evil,

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He didn't.
God is perfect, pure, holy, good and light, with NO darkness in him at all. Before you can create evil, you have to conceive it and plan it - i.e "what method shall I use to bring misery on that country/town/church? Suicide bomber? Mass shooting? Earthquake? Arson? Or a potentially deadly virus that might kill the wrong people"?
I don't believe that God plans to steal, kill and destroy - John 10:10 tells us who it is that does that, and what God's purpose is.

ZNP said:

Many Christians use this argument as the previous posts and this one show. But it is really the same thing as saying that after creating the universe God was no longer responsible for what happened.

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No, it isn't.
When sin came into the world, sickness, decay and death also came in. Some things that happen are a result of that; earthquakes, floods, illnesses etc. Other things happen - like poverty or famine- happen because of mankind's greed, pride, pollution of the planet and lack of care for God's creation. That was one of the consequences of the fall - Adam and Eve sinned and were punished, but the results of their sin affected the whole world.

Everything we do has consequences.
Even when God forgives our sin - and he clothed Adam and Eve when they felt ashamed at being naked - there may still be consequences for ourselves and others. The drunk driver who kills a young mother may repent before God and be forgiven - but the mother will still be dead, and he may still have to go to jail.

ZNP said:

If you look at the verses in Post #208 that is not God's position. He is quite involved and quite responsible.

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So God sends cancer, MND, Corona Virus, and makes some people wicked so that they will stab, shoot, rape and kill others?
Does that sound like a perfect, heavenly Father to you, Matthew 5:48, Luke 11:11-13? Or a God who IS love, 1 John 4:8, and light, 1 John 1:5? Or a God who is the sender of every perfect gift, James 1:17?

If God is like that, why pray for healing? God has sent the illness and will do as he pleases.
Why vaccinate children, or try to seek a vaccination for this virus? Do you wish to protect people against the things that God sends?
Why bother to feed the hungry, help the poor, stand up for injustice etc etc, if all these are from God, created by him and sent for a purpose?
Why did Jesus heal and release a woman whom Satan had kept bound, Luke 13:16? Why didn't he say, "these things are God's will; deal with them"? Or even "I have come to show you what God is like - have some more illness and pain"?