What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

Shemjaza

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Thanks for such a nice reply.

I don't believe I have a skewed idea about the Cambrian Explosion. Of course, I'm not going by the same information you have. I explained my view in another post...I don't understand how we get from one stratos to the other and I don't see links in between. I'm going by images of the different time zones and the different stratos. I admit that there must surely be something I don't see since I'm sure it's much more complicated than any images makes it seem.

But, yes, how does "TUBE" get to be a "FISH"?.
I just think this is too complicated and given any amount of time it just cannot happen. I do, however, realize I may be wrong about this...but some scientists seem to agree.

The way the jaw-less tubes became what you would recognise as fish is just through many, many tiny steps. We don't have actual fossils of all the inbetweens, but we have the method and enough time for it to be possible.

You keep bringing up the scientists who disagree, but you never engage that they don't ever have actual evidence to present. If a mechanic tells you he could modify a car to run on tap water that would be great... but if he can't show you a working model or even explain how , just stick with the rest of the mechanics telling you to use fuel.

I agree with micro evolution. I think everyone does. It's obvious to all. This would be adaptation, or the survival of the fittest, or selection, etc.
But some add to this the beginning of life...
I find this to be a totally different argument.
If we understood HOW life began,,,why could we not reproduce it? Surely there must be a reason...maybe it's just not doable?

The problem is that there isn't any real barrier between micro and macro evolution. It's just the tiny changes of micro evolution, that only in retrospect are macro evolution.

It's like saying you believe in hills, but not mountains.

Interesting!
I think I understand better now.
The footprints in the mud would have disappeared,,,but not the ones on the pavement.
That's one way of looking at it. :)

I don't know how it all happened.
I just can't discount ID, or, as I like to call it...God.
Yes, maybe he just loves to create...
maybe He was creating a good earth for us to live in.
Maybe He's still creating....so many galaxies...
(I know this sounds silly to you).
That's all fine, but many Christians agree with both. You are happy with life changing and adapting on a small scale, why couldn't an all-powerful designer made a universe that would bring forth life that could keep adapting on its own?

Yes, it's that changing into different life forms that gives most creationists a problem...and even some atheists. Maybe one has to be a scientist to be able to understand this.
Where do you draw the line?

You accept that geologically not that long ago polar bears and grizzly bears were the same animals. Surely you can stretch that a little further and see all bears as more and more little changes on a basic animal structure.

Meanwhile, I'm sure you could imagine all wolves, dogs, jackals and coyotes as also being variations on a theme.

Now you just have to look at these two families and see that a "dog" and a "bear" are pretty similar in structure. If you look closer at their skeletons and even their DNA you can see the pattern of similarities.

But it goes even further, we've even found fossils of bear-dogs from before these two groups of animals were as distinct as they are today.

Now it's an explanation to say that an Intelligent Designer just tired of his bear-dogs and made up dogs and bears as replacements... but isn't it more reasonable to apply the explanation that works on a small timeline to just more varieties over a longer period?

Remember we're not talking about a bear-dog suddenly giving birth to a bear or a dog... we're talking about the populations separating and over a very long period of time with many almost invisible steps.

Maybe they don't know the answer but have been convinced that species change into a different species? I could not like taking a certain medicine, but have nothing to replace it with. I don't have a problem with needing to know another solutions before I leave one I don't accept.
It's a matter of rational reasons.

If you can't actually point out the flaws in a scientific theory... you aren't presenting an oposing theory or hypothesis, you're just saying you don't like the answers.

Hmmm. How come every scientist agrees that gravity exists? But they don't all agree with this idea of species changing..
They don't and for, I suspect, the same kind of reasons.

Take a look at electric universe proponents who don't believe in relativity. Look for people who believe that it is density, not gravity that keeps things down. Look at flat Earthers, moon landing deniers.
(And those are just examples that are promoted on this website).

If someone has an emotional or religious investment in a certain answer, that is a motivation to be bias against something, regardless of evidence.

Yes, in the 60's the age of the earth was already established. This is NOT what I was referring to: I was referring to the existence of t he universe.
It was believed that the universe ALWAYS EXISTED...that it had no beginning. Then the BB was generally accepted. I might have mis-spoken.
Okay, but the approximately 14 billion year or infinite age of the universe doesn't really effect the timeline of life on Earth. We still have the 4 or 5 billion years for the Solar system's beginning, then the hundreds of millions of years for the Earth to settle down and life to get going.

People DO try to demonstrate that life can be created in a lab. Isn't the fact that this cannot be done proof enough that the beginning of life is not possible without some "spark" that may very well be metaphysical?
We haven't been able to do something doesn't mean it's impossible... it's also 100% irrelevant the theory of evolution.

An Intellgent Designer could have crafted the Cambrian Life from the void and evolution would still be the best explanation for the modern diversity of life.

Maybe there are some experiences that are repeated and can even be tested,,,,but it may not be science and certainly is not accepted by the scientific community.

Can miracles be proven?
Can NDE be proven?

Why not?
If a thing doesn't leave evidence then they can't be proven. They also can't be disproven.

BUT if there is evidence it is reasonable to accept the demonstrable explanation.

If I come back from the shops to discover that somehow a steak has moved from the bench and only a chewed on bone is sitting on the kitchen floor, I could assume that it is a miracle and I should now become a vegetarian... or I can be very suspicious of Abby the LabX looking very guilty near the stairs.
 
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xianghua

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You missed the point entirely. If these gears are so useful and efficient, then a GOOD designer would utilize their engineered effectiveness in other platforms. What would prevent a GOOD designer from using them in other platforms that have the same functionality requirements?
its like asking why there are cars with different wheels typs or different color or different engine etc. this doesnt prove they evolved by a natural process.
 
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Hans Blaster

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It's not an unreasonable approach, but it sounds like a lot of work on my part. Just being honest. The other approach would be for you to start a thread that asks a question. I dunno. I'll poke around and see if I can make some time this weekend to throw something together.

As a concession to my ever-so-friendly opponents, I will admit to what is probably a fringe philosophy of science. I'm a minority among my engineering colleagues due to an existential crisis many years ago. Most of them exhibit a strong realism, which makes my instrumentalism distasteful. Even more than that, most of them don't think philosophy plays any role at all. It just is. But (sigh) that is a philosophy - a typical realist attitude. Anymore I just smile and move on.

Biology has a strong history of positivism - Darwin's school of thought. Officially, biologists have disavowed it, but in transferring the Darwinian framework into an empiricist philosophy, interesting things happened.

Sorry, I can't help myself. In addition to engineering, I've been schooled in history. Point is, you might need to understand the more deeply rooted basis of where I started from to understand where I ended up.



What is your background? If you're looking to learn biology from me, that might be a mistake. I have a poor background in biology, simply because it didn't interest me and so I never really paid attention to my teachers - just got the grades and moved on. I only got dragged into this because of my historical interests and the way Genesis is constantly attached to the discussion. It took me considerable time to shed my misconceptions about biology.

Realism, instrumentalism, positivism, empericism frankly all seem somewhat related (so now you can tell I have zero background in philosophy) to this physicist. I've read a lot of evolutionary bio and history (popular texts) but have no formal work in either beyond meeting the general studies requirements for a BS. I have learned some bio and geology here from knowledgeable posters (some of whom, I think are in this thread).

I don't want to start a thread in part because I don't quite know what you were trying to reference in that post about the papers you'd written. (It did sound interesting. I once thought about how to model the evolution of codon length. Never did quite work it out.) Plus, I don't want to call anyone out [OK, there is *one* poster, but it isn't you.]
 
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MIDutch

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its like asking why there are cars with different wheels typs or different color or different engine etc. this doesnt prove they evolved by a natural process.
That's merely nitpicking the aesthetics. we were talking about the functionality of an efficient design, not it's color. I'm surprised you don't recognize that there is a difference.

Besides YOU are the one arguing an "intelligent designer". We humans are good enough designers that we have put the useful functionality of wheels on automobiles, airplanes, trains, coffee carts etc.. Your "intelligent designer" was too incompetent to put the functionality of gears on anything other than the one insect you linked to.

If your "intelligent designer" were a human engineer, he'd have been fired his first day on the job.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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To clarify:

I believe we were created and did not come about by evolution.....
I find this interesting because humankind is evolving today, and has been evolving as far back as we can find evidence.

Can you give a rough idea of when this creation came about, and what form it took - e.g. do you think our species (Homo sapiens) was created from scratch, or did God modify a suitable existing species?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Species seem to have come into existance at one point in time and there's no explanation for this.
(the cambrian explosion). Even Darwin acknowledged that this was problematic but he hoped future science would be able to explain this...till now it has not.
There was a number of species around before the Cambrian explosion (e.g. the Ediacarans), but they were rather sparse and weird compared to what came after; the Cambrian 'explosion' was a rapid increase in number diversity of species that established the major modern phyla. There are a number of plausible explanations for why this radiation was so rapid, but it's possible we'll never know for sure.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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yeah but we are uniquier . . . uniquiest? Why does my spell checker keep yelling at me!?!
The standard colloquial usage is 'very unique'; linguistic abuses of this kind have me literally climbing the walls and tearing my hair out ;)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Quantum theory would tend to support your thinking. Whenever we try to find out too much, we lose what information we once had (Heisenberg uncertainty principle).
That's not a description of the uncertainty principle. It's not that you lose information, but that, for complementary properties (conjugate variables) such as position and momentum or energy and time, there is a fundamental limit to the precision with which you can know both properties at once - the more precisely you know one property the less precisely you can know the other.

So (crudely), to measure a particle's speed takes a certain time, so its position is uncertain; to measure its position means taking minimal time, so its speed is uncertain.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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You can't expect a scientist that states he is atheist to believe that God created everything.

Do you realize how silly the O.T. sounds to those that do not believe?

Science will never know how the universe began because everything in it is too complicated --- but they will keep looking and this is only right...that's what science is all about anyway.

So far Genesis 1:1 has been confirmed even though they don't believe so...what comes next will be interesting --- and maybe nothing will come next...

You are correct!

What will come next? Is it better to know truth?

What if the corona virus is just the cartoon before the actual movie starts?

What if the USA IS not only mentioned in prophecy, but takes up an entire 10% of the entire Book of Revelation?

What if the evidence would point the the USA being destroyed in one hour? Would you want facts or conjecture and theory?

Is truth stranger than fiction?
www.sevenheadedscarletbeast.blogspot.com
 
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Subduction Zone

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You are correct!

What will come next? Is it better to know truth?

What if the corona virus is just the cartoon before the actual movie starts?

What if the USA IS not only mentioned in prophecy, but takes up an entire 10% of the entire Book of Revelation?

What if the evidence would point the the USA being destroyed in one hour? Would you want facts or conjecture and theory?

Is truth stranger than fiction?
www.sevenheadedscarletbeast.blogspot.com
Please, let's stick to demonstrable facts. Abusing the Bible does not help you.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Old question.

If everything MUST have a cause....
then the FIRST CAUSE CANNOT have a cause.
This is simply incorrect logic. If everything MUST have a cause, there cannot be a first cause (because that would contradict the first premise that everything must have a cause).

What's easier to believe?
That God made everything
or
That everything came from nothing.

I decided on the first.
False dichotomy: If God doesn't have to come from nothing, then 'everything' need not come from nothing.

False logic: Implies God is not part of everything (i.e. doesn't exist), or that God made itself (logical contradiction).
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Please, let's stick to demonstrable facts. Abusing the Bible does not help you.

What good is it to offer demonstrable facts, as I have done with the website you were afforded, if those irrefutable facts are not even a consideration? You would be surprised at those demonstrable facts that have been offered. See if you can find fault in their testimony!
 
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GodsGrace101

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You can know!

I appreciate that we’ve all got other things to do that are more important than sitting around reading about fossils all day though.

I think that this is a major stumbling block however, a concise summary of something like the Cambrian explosion might sound vague and unconvincing but more in-depth responses can appear intimidating and too time consuming to properly absorb and research.

If you have time maybe you could have a read through this...

What does the fossil record show? - Common-questions

(written by a Christian, I try not to be biased!)
I read it. Basic stuff I know....
I read with interest this:

#Transitional fossils are plentiful

It seems like not too much has been found...it did state that an alligator like creature seems to be transitional. It also stated that micro evolution is plentiful --- but I think everyone believes this.

In the Southern Tyrol, which would be the Northern most part of Italy in the Dolomite Mountains, a whole man was found and it was determined he was 5,000 years old. This was, of course, before Genesis which fundamentalists believe is from 4,000 years ago. So it's difficult for me to understand any Young Earth believer - but I hear there are some.
He's in a museum in Bolzano and my daughter's family did go to see it.


Nor I you, although my profile says atheist, agnostic might have been more accurate.

It’s not my place to comment on people having faith in any religion, it’s the strange biblical literalists that bother me.

TBC.... it’s dinner time!
Just to clarify,,,I don't have faith in any religion.
I believe God exists and have faith in Him.
HOW He created I don't think we can really know.
I think I answered this in a previous post to you.
I DO believe that we are unique and special and I don't see any being more evolved than us around, so maybe God was happy with his latest creation and left it at that.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I’m not sure where you’ve picked up this idea that there is any debate whatsoever in mainstream science about the fact of common descent. It really isn’t the case.

Sure there are disagreements about things like the extent to which certain mechanisms may play a role or the rate of speciation etc.

But the fact that life has been evolving from it’s earliest forms, like micro bacterial mats, to what we see today has been settled for over a century.

The only real objection comes from religious organisations like the Discovery Institute who are in the unfortunate position of having to defend the crazy idea that the Earth is 6000 years old and that all life, with the exception of a single boat full, was wiped out by a worldwide flood.
Is that what the Discovery Institute believes?
I don't think so.
Dr. Tour is a chemical scientist, one of the top 10 in the world, and he's interesting and believes the earth is billions of years old.
Ditto for Dr. Behe,,,,someone on here says he's been discredited, but I don't know how.

The boat full and the world-wide flood is because the entire world they knew of was around them. It is said however, by science, that the earth was covered by water at some point.

I find it interesting how some facts in Genesis do agree with science - however primitive they might be in explanation.

Also, I was never taught that it's science vs religion.
I think there's plenty of room for finding out, if possible, how life BEGAN....I might have to accept transition one day...but I'm not ready for it just yet.
 
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GodsGrace101

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There is arguably more debate about gravity than evolution in scientific communities. Do you know that scientists can't even agree on what gravity is?

I mean, just look at all these different theories of gravitation: Gravity - Wikipedia
Didn't have to read the article on gravity.
I already know this.
We know gravity exists and that's about it.
So much mystery --- so much to still know.
 
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GodsGrace101

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all species are unique - that's why we call them species...
Of course we're all unique ----
each PERSON is unique; but I was thinking of this definition:

  1. unique(Adjective)

    Being the only one of its kind; unequaled, unparalleled or unmatched.
  2. unique(Adjective)

    Of a feature, such that only one holder has it.
  3. unique(Adjective)

    (disputed) Of a rare quality.
  4. unique(Adjective)

    (disputed) Unusual.

Don't YOU think humans are unique?
Don' WE have attributes other animals do not have?

You don't really have to answer---I'm not debating this with someone that does not believe in the possibility of a God existing.
 
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Subduction Zone

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What good is it to offer demonstrable facts, as I have done with the website you were afforded, if those irrefutable facts are not even a consideration? You would be surprised at those demonstrable facts that have been offered. See if you can find fault in their testimony!
Because your "irrefutable facts" were refuted a long time ago. Bring them up one at a time and see if any of them survive. Posting a link to a series of PRATT's only earns derision.
 
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