Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

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martymonster

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For those who maintain that a literal fiery hell is real, and post scriptures they think prove it, which they say must be taken literally. Let me ask you something.... have you gouged out an eye, cut of a hand or foot, that has caused you to sin, or gone and sold everything you owned and given the money to the poor? Yeah, I didn't think so!
 
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SkyWriting

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It's one thing to be able to quote a bunch of scriptures.... it's quite another to understand what they actually mean.
I find them applicable. You may reject any that you wish, no problem.
 
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SkyWriting

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Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?


I agree with the good doctor.
"Time" doesn't exist after our death.
 
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SkyWriting

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There are 5 5 qualifications for "everlasting punishment" /aionios kolasis. What are they?
These 5 qualifications apply to Old Covenant clean animals.

It's a teaching you invented and you are the only source of these details.
I have no way to look up "qualifications for everlasting punishment"
because nobody in the rest of the world has ever used that phrase.
 
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FineLinen

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It's a teaching you invented and you are the only source of these details.
I have no way to look up "qualifications for everlasting punishment"
because nobody in the rest of the world has ever used that phrase.

Dear Sky: Not quite my friend. The Master "invented" it.

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________?

2._____________________________?

3._____________________________?

4._____________________________?

5._____________________________?
 
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SkyWriting

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FineLinen

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I couldn't find nothing.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25 - New International Version
Matthew 25 BSB

If you are stipulating that we need to visit with prisoners to get into heaven, then there will be plenty of room for social distancing in heaven.

This would explain why no one else has ever taught this. But I am always open to considering scriptural insights.

Dear Sky: I stipulate nothing. The Master of reconciliation clearly enunciates the foundation(s) for aionios kolasis.

“Of all the conceptions of the divine, of all the language Jesus could put on the lips of the God character in the story he tells, that’s what he has the Father say. “You are always with me, and everything I have is yours.” …

Millions of people in our world were told that God so loved the world, that God sent his son to save the world, and that if they accept and believe in Jesus, then they’ll be able to have a relationship with God…

But there’s more.

Millions have been taught that if they don’t believe, if they don’t accept in the right way, that is, the way the person telling them the gospel does, and they were hit by a car and died later that same day, God will have no choice but to punish them forever in conscious torment in hell…

A loving heavenly father who will go to extraordinary lengths to have a relationship with them would, in the blink of an eye, become a cruel, mean, vicious tormentor who would ensure that they had no escape from an endless future of agony… if your God is loving one second and cruel the next, if your God will punish people for all eternity for sins committed in a few short years, no amount of clever marketing or compelling language or good music or great coffee will be able to disguise that one, true, glaring, untenable, acceptable, awful reality… sometimes the reason people have a problem accepting “the gospel” is that they sense that the God lurking behind Jesus isn’t safe, loving, or good. It doesn’t make sense it can’t be reconciled, and so they say no… God create, because the endless joy and peace and shared life at the heart of this God knows no other way. Jesus invites us into that relationship, the one at the center of the universe… so when the gospel is diminished to a question of whether or not a person will “get into heaven,” that reduces the good news to a ticket, a way to get past the bouncer and into the club.

The good news is better than that.” -Rob. Bell (Love Wins)
 
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Der Alte

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For those who maintain that a literal fiery hell is real, and post scriptures they think prove it, which they say must be taken literally. Let me ask you something.... have you gouged out an eye, cut of a hand or foot, that has caused you to sin, or gone and sold everything you owned and given the money to the poor? Yeah, I didn't think so!
Your examples are irrelevant. They are all hyperbole because the Bible tells us that our bodies are the temple of God and if we harm our bodies God will destroy us.
But not nobody, not no how can say unequivocally that the hell described in the NT does not exist.
As I have shown many times, in Israel before and after the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge hinnom/gehenna and sheol/hades. So when Jesus taught "eternal punishment" it supported the existing belief.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Dr. Marvin Vincent
‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle ...The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.
...
It does not mean something endless or everlasting. ...does not signify endless duration.
The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying ...
They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of
...
Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.
...
There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.
... aiodios ... “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); ...
...Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon
.....
Much of this copy/paste was nothing but Vincent's unsupported opinion. Hebrew had no superlatives therefore to emphasize a word the word was repeated.
284 FIGURES OF SPEECH. Polyptopon
This figure, therefore, is a repetition of the same word in the same sense, but not in the same form: from the same root, but in some other termination: as that of case, mood, tense. person, degree. number, gender. etc. for emphasis.
In A.V. and R.V. this is rendered, “The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God." etc.
I Kings viii. 27.— The heaven and heaven or heavens cannot contain thee”.: ie., the highest heaven.”
Ecc. i. 2. etc.- -“ Vanity of vanities”: i.e., the greatest vanity.
Song Sol i. I “The song of songs,” i.e. the most beautiful song.
Dan. i. —“ God or gods”:
i.e.. the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. viii. 25.—” The Prince or princes”: i.e., the most powerful Prince.
Hos. x. 15. .”So shall Bethel do unto you because or your great wickedness.’, The figure k here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4..—-” A lamentation of 1amentations,” i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
Hos. x. 15. .”So shall Bethel do unto you because or your great wickedness.’, The figure k here translated. and given in the margin “Hebrew, the evil of your evil.”
Micah ii. 4..—-” A lamentation of 1amentations,” i.e., a great lamentation. See above, page 278.
I Tim. vi. ii.—” The King of kings, and Lord of lords.’ Compare Rev. xvii. 14 and xix. 16..
Rev. 1. 6. - “The ages of the ages.” i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever.
Figures Of Speech Used In The Bible E.W. Bullinger.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
As for aion/aionios never meaning eternal. Here are nine verses from my list of 24 where "aionios" is defined/described as eternal.
In 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios.” Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to something which cannot be eternal.
[1]John 6:58

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]John 10:28

(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[3]John 3:15

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[4]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[5]John 5:24

(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 6:27

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent,
The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. οὐ, μή
has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing someth. in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 646). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.


 
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FineLinen

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I couldn't find anything?

Take your reading glasses, place them on your nose, look through those pieces of glass called lenses and try again.

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________?

2._____________________________?

3._____________________________?

4._____________________________?

5._____________________________?
 
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For those who maintain that a literal fiery hell is real, and post scriptures they think prove it, which they say must be taken literally. Let me ask you something.... have you gouged out an eye, cut of a hand or foot, that has caused you to sin, or gone and sold everything you owned and given the money to the poor? Yeah, I didn't think so!

Not a problem at all. I have symbolically done all of these things and more. Physically, not in the least, but then, as you say, it is all symbolical.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
...There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.
According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.
The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________?
2._____________________________?
3._____________________________?
4._____________________________?
5._____________________________?
Why? The context of Matt 25:46 is not decided on the immediate context alone but the context of the entire Bible.
Greek has always been the language of the Eastern Orthodox Greek Church. Who better than they know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?” Note the EOB uses “aionios” and “aidios” as synonyms.

The Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them. saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal 1ife.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
This EOG version can be D/L at the link above. If you choose to read this version I suggest you read the scholarship recorded in the preface.


 
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martymonster

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Why? If, indeed, it is all merely symbolic, as you have asserted, then his symbolism has no more, nor less, validity than yours or mine or anyone else's, does it?

Scripture interprets scripture. You have no authority, whatsoever, to interpret scripture. Any interpretation of scripture, is only valid, so far as it's interpretation comes from scripture.
 
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Scripture interprets scripture. You have no authority, whatsoever, to interpret scripture. Any interpretation of scripture, is only valid, so far as it's interpretation comes from scripture.

Symbols interpret symbols? How can that be?

If I happen to see all goats in scripture as symbolic of evil and someone else sees them as symbolic of good, who is right? How do you know?
 
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martymonster

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Symbols interpret symbols? How can that be?

If I happen to see all goats in scripture as symbolic of evil and someone else sees them as symbolic of good, who is right? How do you know?

That's exactly right. How do you know? You don't, unless God shows them to you.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Can you show me where it says there are eternal consequences for sin?

Hi Martymonster,

Here you go:

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NASB)

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:5-7 (NASB)

Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (NASB)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15 (NASB)

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
 
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Kris Jordan

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Yes hello Kris Jordan, I'm tentatively proposing that our God does not necessarily treat:
  • the young rape victim who suicides with a burning (albeit misplaced) hatred for Jesus for not saving her by consigning her to an eternal bbq; and
  • her rapist and tormentor who in the last moments of his stellar career decides to confess and repent (with as much sincerity as he can muster in his blackened heart) by welcoming him into eternal bliss with open arms.
When you take a moment to consider a justice model that in essence consists of one unfathomably enormous punishment for any who die rejecting Jesus and one fabulous reward for any who die confessing, you'll see that it's unworkable, given all the many and varied ways ppl might get there.

If man's justice system is better than God's (ie more condign and effective), then there must be something wrong with the theology, right?

So I daresay it's time for Christians to do some careful review and (while we love the dogmatism and superficial efficiency of a 'sheep-good goats-bad' 'one size fits all'-type justice model) appreciate that God is in fact perfect and will render justice and equity in a holy and glorious fashion, taking all things into account.

Is this making any sense to you?

Hi Shrewd Manager,

Whenever we have issues with God's judgment, it's usually because we don't understand sin and the nature of it. Assuming the "young rape victim" in your example was not a child, and as tragic as that type of violation against women is, the reality of such cases is that the rape victim herself is a sinner before God.

She (along with each of us, including her rapist) deserves death and eternal separation from God because "the wages of sin is death," both physically and spiritually. That's just the brutal reality of sin and it's consequences since none of us ever measures up to God's standard of perfect holiness.

Therefore, no matter how "good" or "innocent" we may appear to be, we will not escape hell unless we repent and place our faith in Jesus for what He did for us on the cross. Only Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life, and died a sacrificial death on our behalf so we wouldn't have to pay for our sins personally in hell. But if we reject Him and His free gift of grace, there's no other option for us to be saved. The only other alternative is eternal separation from God.

Likewise, her rapist will also suffer in hell for his sins unless he recognizes his sinfulness before God, repents, and trusts Jesus as his Savior. If he does, his sins would be completely washed away by the blood of the Lamb (just like every one of ours was when we accepted Christ as Savior and Lord) and he'll be in heaven undeservedly like all of us will be as born-again Christians.

That is why the gospel is Good News - because the Bad News is so bad!
 
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martymonster

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Hi Martymonster,

Here you go:

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NASB)

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:5-7 (NASB)

Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (NASB)

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15 (NASB)

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (NASB)

Sigh... Just because you think that's what those verses mean, doesn't actually that's what they mean.

Tell me, how does eternal destruction, gel with the restitution of all things or the last enemy death being destroyed?
 
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