Help?

To Jason:

That entire thread is pretty much the reason why I'm not around here much any more. It's the old, old, OLD debate between Catholics and Protestants, and IMHO, the Protestants have a very narrow viewpoint which permits them to tout "Sola Scriptura." (MY OPINION, folks)

BIG problem Number One: NOWHERE in the Bible is Sola Scriptura pronounced. The famous "All Scripture is inspired of God" doesn't cut it, however, you can count on that being the battle standard of the SS folks. Paul's admonition to follow the teachings, both written and oral, is casually dismissed. And of course, the Scripture stating that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth is easily explained away: Hey, that's not the CATHOLIC Church being referenced.

BIG problem Number Two: Jesus Himself never wrote anything.

BIG problem Number Three: Jesus sent the disciples into the world to TEACH. NOT WRITE, TEACH.

BIG problem Number Four: (and I like this one best) In the Gospel according to John, John distinctly says that Jesus taught much more than could ever be written down, all the books in the world would not be able to contain His words. Now, if you do some serious thinking about that, it would mean the Sola Scriptura folks are DENYING themselves access to those precious Words of our Savior.

Bottom line Jason: this stuff is OLD HAT, and the argument will always be there. Probably time to shake the sand off your shoes and move on.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Today at 09:24 AM VOW said this in Post #2

BIG problem Number Four: (and I like this one best) In the Gospel according to John, John distinctly says that Jesus taught much more than could ever be written down, all the books in the world would not be able to contain His words. Now, if you do some serious thinking about that, it would mean the Sola Scriptura folks are DENYING themselves access to those precious Words of our Savior.

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Jason, just so you know, Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine which states that Scripture is the only rule of faith, just that it's the final rule of faith.  We should base the credibility of other sources of information on whether or not they agree with Scripture.  Sola Scriptura, again, is the belief that Scripture is the final rule of faith, not the only rule of faith.  I, personally, have gained great insight into the Word of God through the teachings of many great theological commentaries.  Their views are based on the Bible and are their way of relaying their understanding of the Gospel.  I take great comfort in reading many books because they make many parts of the Bible easier to understand.

God bless,

Don

Protestant tradition?

Today at 01:39 PM Reformationist said this in Post #4



Jason, just so you know, Sola Scriptura is not a doctrine which states that Scripture is the only rule of faith, just that it's the final rule of faith.  We should base the credibility of other sources of information on whether or not they agree with Scripture.  Sola Scriptura, again, is the belief that Scripture is the final rule of faith, not the only rule of faith.  I, personally, have gained great insight into the Word of God through the teachings of many great theological commentaries.  Their views are based on the Bible and are their way of relaying their understanding of the Gospel.  I take great comfort in reading many books because they make many parts of the Bible easier to understand.

God bless,

Don

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Ref, you know I enjoy debating from time to time with you, but you are forgetting that this is the OBOB forum. Ask and ye shall receive!! As for Sola Scriptura, that is not a Catholic belief.  Sacred Scripture must have passed this test first. Did it agree with the Church's teachings? That was the reason any of it was included in the Bible. Not vice versa. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, gave birth to the New Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures did not give birth to the Church.

God Bless,

Edward

Today at 12:26 PM edward said this in Post #6

Ref, you know I enjoy debating from time to time with you, but you are forgetting that this is the OBOB forum.

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No, I didn't forget that.  I wasn't debating.  I was merely clarifying.  I would hope that gaining a greater and more accurate understanding of the beliefs of your brethren, separated though you believe them to be, has not lost it's importance in this forum.

As for Sola Scriptura, that is not a Catholic belief.

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Yes sir.  I understand that.  Just for the record, I was not trying to influence or debate the validity of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.  My comments were merely for the purpose of clarifying a common misunderstanding of this belief by those who do not adhere to it.

Sacred Scripture must have passed this test first. Did it agree with the Church's teachings? That was the reason any of it was included in the Bible. Not vice versa.

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Scripture passes the test because it agrees with church teachings?  Okay.  As I do not wish to incite a debate on this topic I'll comment only by saying that I respectfully disagree.

God bless you too.

I'm sure the scriptures could not have passed a test of any kind if there was no Church to give the test...and give us the scriptures.

I would say that Rome only broke Communion with those Apostolic Churches that refused to abandon their heresies. Also, I would say that history bears out which particular churches are Apostolic in origin. As for the Jerusalem Church being the only real, head Church.... The Early Church never thought that, and they were disciples of the Apostles themselves, so I'll stand with their opinion and cherish communion with the bishop of Rome as a gift of God.

God Bless, and Amen to VOW's statement,

Neal

To all:

"Sola Scriptura" translates from the Latin as ONLY Scripture. If the non-Catholic viewpoint were that Scripture is the final authority, I would think the battle cry would be "Fine Scriptura" (or whatever "final" translates into Latin, LOL...it's been a while since I had my Latin classes!)

And whether it's "Only Scripture" or "Final Scripture," the fact still remains there isn't any Scriptural reference to this thought. That was a tradition made by Martin Luther, to make the breakaway from the Church authority, because Mister Luther thought he had a better handle on what the Bible said.

Mister Luther conveniently disregarded the fact that Sacred Tradition existed BEFORE Sacred Scripture, and it isn't logical to dismiss the Tradition out of hand after the Scripture is created, especially since Tradition is REFERENCED in Sacred Scripture many times.

And again, this is the same, tired debate. The same arguments used by both sides, too.

I think computer programmers call this a loop.


To Jason:

May God bless you on your journey of faith! I pray that RCIA classes help you find the fulfillment you are seeking!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

HEY REFORMATIONIST!

Your worries are over, Buddy. You won't have to worry about a CATHOLIC VIEWPOINT being posted in the CATHOLIC FORUM any more! No need to report me for my "attitude"!!

What a relief, huh?

I hereby resign as Moderator from Christian Forums. This place has degenerated to nothing but a snipefest, and I don't need the aggravation it provides.

"Body of Christ," indeed.


~VOW

Why can't we post Catholic view points in the Catholic forum?

You can, and should, post Catholic viewpoints in the Catholic forum. That's what it's for. Debates, of course, are to be kept out of this forum entirely.

The exchange earlier in this thread has exacerbated bad feelings and has cost us a good mod.

I'd say that's probably enough damage for one day.

Yesterday at 10:15 AM VOW said this in Post #12
HEY REFORMATIONIST!

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Hello. 

Your worries are over, Buddy.

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I wasn't aware that I was worried.

You won't have to worry about a CATHOLIC VIEWPOINT being posted in the CATHOLIC FORUM any more!

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VOW, you, as a Christian and a mod of this MB, should be appreciative for your brethren pointing out a non-edifying comment made about the faith and beliefs of other Christians, even if that comment was made by you.  Can you honestly say that your comments were edifying?  Please do not justify them by pointing out my own ungodliness.  They are two separate issues.  If you cannot justify your comments then you should appreciate that this was brought to light.  I have no problem with what you feel about Martin Luther.  It's how you express those feelings that should be scrutinized.  I personally believe you should spend your time praying for Martin Luther and those you believe he has led astray instead of viewing his separation from your church in a way that causes you to disdain the man.  I addressed that which I took issue with in an appropriate, CF approved method.  You, however, feel the need to address this in a public forum:

No need to report me for my "attitude"!!

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Again, you should appreciate the fact that this was pointed out and if you had a comment about it should have addressed me in a more private manner.  

What a relief, huh?

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What a relief about what?  That you are offended?  That you feel the need to step down from the position of authority that many on this MB feel you merit?  No, I'm not relieved, nor was your resignation as a moderator something that I can effect.  That is your choice so look to yourself for the catalyst, not me. 

I hereby resign as Moderator from Christian Forums. This place has degenerated to nothing but a snipefest, and I don't need the aggravation it provides.

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VOW, I know I'm not Catholic but "the aggravation" that is provided is not provided by this MB.  It is provided by the way you give in to the temptation to respond in ungodliness.  There is nothing wrong with this MB, nor can any of us blame someone else when we respond in an ungodly manner.  On the contrary, this MB is a fantastic theater for all of us to work on responding in love.  We are sanctified by the interaction we engage in here.  It is a great place to practice being holy because it shows many of us on a daily basis how prideful and sinful we are quick to be.  I encourage you not to leave.

"Body of Christ," indeed.

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This is the Body of Christ, at least I think so.  As with any family there are members that I get along with better but interacting with those that I don't struggle with does little to show me my sinfulness.  It is those that I respond to in ungodliness from whom I learn the most about myself and my proclivity to sin.

God bless

Okay, I think that'll do it for this one.

There are no innocent parties here.

Further exchange of the above types should be made by means of PM, NOT in the public forum.

Closing now.