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John Helpher

John 3:16
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It's quite simple."Trying" is not the answer. Can you imagine telling a bird that it has to try to fly?

Well, yes. If it has a broken wing or it's a still a chick, or had some other problem, like humans have aplenty, then yes, I would tell it to try to fly. Now try your logic the other way; can you imagine telling a person who has a problem with dishonesty that he doesn't need to try to be more honest, or a person who struggles with greed that he doesn't need to try to stop being greedy, or a person who has an addiction to inappropriate content that he doesn't need totry to stop indulging in the vice?

Christians should be "naturally spiritual".

We should be, but we aren't. That's the whole point of forgiveness; we should not look at failure as an impediment to improved progress, which can only happen by trying again after each failure. As we learn and grow, the failures should become less in number or less in intensity. That's the lesson behind the parable of the talents; the 3rd servant was punished because he did not even try to be productive.

It was only when I realised that Lord Jesus had done everything for me 2,000 years ago that the struggle ceased.

So, Jesus' death on the cross conveniently leaves the door open for you to live your life however you want to, because any attempt to live for God equates to "trying to be good"? That makes no sense. I get that we should never think that we've somehow earned salvation or boast that we're good, but that's not what you're preaching here; what you're preaching is fake grace, that Jesus doesn't want us to even try to obey him despite all his teachings to the contrary. "If you love me you will obey me". "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? "My mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it". "The wise man hears my teachings and obeys them". "My teachings will judge you". "He who endures to the end will be saved". The list goes on and on, yet despite all this you stubbornly cling to this idea that Jesus does not want you to at least try to obey him? It's stupefying.

I have come to the conclusion that there is deep seated, secret hope that somehow we can get a little glory for ourselves.

Sure, some people probably think that way, but Jesus addressed that, too. He said when you pray, fast, or give charity to the poor, do it all in secret, so that no one will know, and your father who sees in secret will reward you openly, but if you ignore this teaching, if you do these things in public where others can see, then you will not be rewarded by God, because you will have already gotten your reward on earth (i.e. the praise of men who see you promoting yourself via these public demonstrations and think you're a spiritual person). If I had to guess, you probably do the opposite on these teachings; you probably do tell people about your fasting and charity giving and you probably do pray aloud for others to hear.

I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I've talked to a lot of people who take the position you take here, where we should not even try to obey Jesus because it amounts to wanting glory for ourselves, but then they will argue up and down that there's absolutely no problem with telling others about their fasting, charity-giving, and making their prayers as public as can be.
 
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John Helpher

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All I can suggest (if you are interested) is to ask God to show you what it means.

But, I already did that. I went straight to Jesus and he said, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Luke 6:46.
 
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Aussie Pete

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But, I already did that. I went straight to Jesus and he said, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? Luke 6:46.
Read my next post. Hopefully it will explain.
 
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Aussie Pete

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You really do not get it. I'm not surprised, most Christians don't. I wrestled with this myself for way longer than I'd like to admit. Try 40 years.

Pride is a terrible blight on a Christian's life. We know that we should be humble because God's word says so. We know that pride is bad because God's word says so. But pride is the very nature of man. It is responsible for some of the greatest evils imaginable. Knowing that pride is wrong is one thing. Knowing how to overcome is another thing entirely.

OK, so you agree that pride is evil. What is pride? I thought I was humble because I was always putting myself down. Not so. It was a defence mechanism. I was trying to get others to say that I was a good guy, not the person I said that I was. It often worked.

I asked God to show me what pride was. I abused a dog once - "How dare you bark at me!" The Lord said to me, "That's pride". Reacting when your "rights" are ignored or violated is pride. Reacting angrily or defensively when corrected is pride. It manifests in different ways with different people. And God resists the proud. We'll get no help there.

"Can the Leopard change its spots?" The answer is no. Wash a pig and put a collar on it, it's still a pig. So what can be done?

God's answer the human condition is simple and effective. He kills us. Ouch. Not really. The problem is the old nature that we inherit from Adam. That's the source of pride. God kills us by including us in the death of Christ. Then He raises us up to new life in Christ. We are new creations. We can rightly say that it is no longer "I" that lives. The life we now have is Christ. We live in this body by (literally) the faith of Christ. We have a brand new "I". It is of Christ, not of Adam. If you can see this, it changes everything.

So what does it mean in experience? It means that I no longer have to try. I just be my (new) self. It means that I can do as I please, but what pleases me is Christ in me. Taking a cat outside and throwing a ball for it to chase is terror for a cat. Do the same thing with a dog and it will be delighted. God terminated my old nature. What was automatically proud, stubborn, independent and rebellious has been replaced with a nature that is humble, flexible, dependent and obedient. It's not me. It is Christ.

Lord Jesus has no problem being humble and obedient. Why should I try to be something I can't be when Lord Jesus is already all that I need to be? It works. It's real life, eternal life that starts right now. It's the abundant life that Lord Jesus came to give us. It's only found in Him and it is all that we'll ever need.
 
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John Helpher

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It means that I no longer have to try. I just be my (new) self. It means that I can do as I please,

This is the crux of the issue; you've developed this doctrine so that you can do what you want to do, even if it's contrary to what Jesus commanded. Ultimately it's a doctrine to legitimize selfishness under the pretense of Jesus saving you from any need to obey him. It's a disgusting perversion of grace. This is why Jesus said, "this people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me". It's why he asked, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? These people he's referring to made a pretense of loyalty to Jesus; they called him Lord and probably any number of other flattering things they said, much like you've done in your post. But what he was really concerned about was why they did not obey him.

It's why he said, "Not all those who say to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who obey my father". He finished that thought by telling a parable about two men, a wise man and a foolish man. The wise man heard the sayings of Jesus and obeyed them. Jesus said that man was building on a rock. The foolish man also heard his teachings, but did not obey him. Jesus said that man was building on the sand and was destroyed by a storm.

Both men heard the teachings of Jesus, but only the wise man obeyed.

This doctrine you've developed, and that you're teaching to others here on this public forum is a perversion. You've sugar coated it in a bunch of flowery talk about God and pride, but the bottom line is that you're teaching others that they don't need to obey Jesus.
 
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Aussie Pete

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This is the crux of the issue; you've developed this doctrine so that you can do what you want to do, even if it's contrary to what Jesus commanded. Ultimately it's a doctrine to legitimize selfishness under the pretense of Jesus saving you from any need to obey him. It's a disgusting perversion of grace. This is why Jesus said, "this people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me". It's why he asked, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? These people he's referring to made a pretense of loyalty to Jesus; they called him Lord and probably any number of other flattering things they said, much like you've done in your post. But what he was really concerned about was why they did not obey him.

It's why he said, "Not all those who say to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who obey my father". He finished that thought by telling a parable about two men, a wise man and a foolish man. The wise man heard the sayings of Jesus and obeyed them. Jesus said that man was building on a rock. The foolish man also heard his teachings, but did not obey him. Jesus said that man was building on the sand and was destroyed by a storm.

Both men heard the teachings of Jesus, but only the wise man obeyed.

This doctrine you've developed, and that you're teaching to others here on this public forum is a perversion. You've sugar coated it in a bunch of flowery talk about God and pride, but the bottom line is that you're teaching others that they don't need to obey Jesus.
You still don't get it. Your loss.
 
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John Helpher

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You still don't get it. Your loss.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"? Luke 6:46.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" Matthew 7:24

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:" John 14:21

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." Luke 8:21

"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 7:19

"I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth [i.e. he didn't even try]: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant..." Matthew 25:25-26

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:45-46

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13

This kind of stuff can be found all throughout the gospels and in the epistles, but you have some kind of secret revelation from God that he does not actually want us to obey him, that he does not want us to even try to obey Jesus, because, as you've said, "it means I can do as I please".

No way. That is so totally false. It's stupefying how people can so blatantly argue that we should disregard Jesus' teachings, and then justify it on the basis that it's Jesus' own sacrifice on the cross which allows us to ignore him!
 
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Aussie Pete

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"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"? Luke 6:46.

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" Matthew 7:24

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:" John 14:21

" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21

"My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it." Luke 8:21

"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 7:19

"I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth [i.e. he didn't even try]: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant..." Matthew 25:25-26

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:45-46

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13

This kind of stuff can be found all throughout the gospels and in the epistles, but you have some kind of secret revelation from God that he does not actually want us to obey him, that he does not want us to even try to obey Jesus, because, as you've said, "it means I can do as I please".

No way. That is so totally false. It's stupefying how people can so blatantly argue that we should disregard Jesus' teachings, and then justify it on the basis that it's Jesus' own sacrifice on the cross which allows us to ignore him!
You can twist my words all you like. It does not change the truth.
 
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