Every jot and tittle

HARK! · Apr 10, 2020

Der Alter said:
Do you have a point or just spamming the thread?

OK, I'll spell it out for you. It's commentary. Treat is as such.

Der Alte · Apr 10, 2020

HARK! said:
OK, I'll spell it out for you. It's commentary. Treat is as such.

Which, your Latin or my quote from Origen?

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
EOG NT 9 because it does not go into his heart but into the stomach, and then into the sewer (thus he declared all foods to be clean)k?”

PS. You do know that that "k" here is not a question right? There is no "?" k is a footnote mark in the EOG NT 9 to [thus he declared all foods to be clean] which says k = [or purged all meats] or either definition can be used. Did you read the k footnote? Why did you leave it out and add a [?] to k?

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
PS. You do know that that "k" here is not a question right? There is no "?" k is a footnote mark in the EOG NT 9 to [thus he declared all foods to be clean] which says k = [or purged all meats] or either definition can be used. Did you read the k footnote? Why did you leave it out and add a [?] to k?

"?" Typo! My fingers are affected by arthritis. While the EOG translators included the footnote "or purged all meats," they chose "declared all foods clean" as the better translation.
Also Origen the poster boy for UR quoted "making all meats clean."
Origen Commentary on Matthew Book XI
Philip Schaff: ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
and especially when, according to Mark, the Saviour said these things "making all meats clean,"[98]

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

HARK! said:
OK, I'll spell it out for you. It's commentary. Treat is as such.

I finally figured out what you are talking about. Yes I quoted from a commentary by Origen who OBTW happens to be the poster boy for UR. All the ECF are commentaries but they give us a snapshot of how the early church interpreted and practiced the NT.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
"?" Typo! My fingers are affected by arthritis. While the EOG translators included the footnote "or purged all meats," they chose "declared all foods clean" as the better translation.
Also Origen the poster boy for UR quoted "making all meats clean."
Origen Commentary on Matthew Book XI
Philip Schaff: ANF10. Bibliographic Synopsis; General Index - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
and especially when, according to Mark, the Saviour said these things "making all meats clean,"[98]

The EOG NT shows both tranlslations are correct in the [k] footnote by using {or}.

As posted earlier and shown in post # 255 linked, it makes no difference to me which word definitions or translations are used in MARK 7:19 for καθαρίζον for clean or purify ("declared" is not in the Greek it was added by the translators) as both are correct as I was never contending word definitions but appplication of either Greek word meanings to context of scripture and chapter to determine subject matter to determine correct interpretation of the scriptures. They do not fit your interpretation that JESUS is saying all unclean foods are now clean as that is not the context and subject matter of both the scripture *MARK 7:19 and of the chapter context shown in MARK 7:2-23.

Using a single Greek word καθαρίζον which means "purify; cleanse make clean" (declared being added by the translators) is in context in the scripture to the word ἐκπορεύομαι which means to go out of the body or purge and after of course πάντα βρώματα (all food). The chapter context of course is to the washing of cups and pots and hands making someone κοινόω unclean or defiled not "unclean foods" *MARK 7:2-5.

The point of the scripture being to the chapter context and subject matter, it is not the "washing of pots and cups and not washing of the hands that makes a man unclean a man (defiled)" (Mark 7:8) but breaking God's commandments and what comes out of the heart and mouth of the man that defiles (makes unclean) a man.

The context of making all meats clean is to the "purging out of the body" and it is following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God that defile (makes unclean) the man, not what one eats which passes out of the man *Mark 7:2-23. The chapter subject matter is not to eating unclean foods as they were all JEWS who followed the food laws od LEVITICUS 11 but the subject matter was to eating food with unwashed hands, pots and cups *MARK 7:2-5.

To make clean, to cleanse; a. from physical stains and dirt. You can see that the application here is to the context of "purging out or cleansing all food from the system by passing out that which is impure or unclean". That is, the nutritious part of the food remains while that which is defiled or unclean passes out of the man.

The above post I hope demonstrated the context od MARK 7:2-23 and context supersedes word definitions for scripture and chapter interpretations in the Hebrew and the Greek.

God bless

HARK! · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
Yes I quoted from a commentary by Origen who OBTW happens to be the poster boy for UR.

UR? Are you speaking in code?

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
The EOG NT shows both tranlslations are correct in the [k] footnote by using {or}.
As posted earlier and shown in post # 255 linked, it makes no difference to me which word definitions or translations are used in MARK 7:19 for καθαρίζον for clean or purify ("declared" is not in the Greek it was added by the translators) as both are correct as I was never contending word definitions but appplication of either Greek word meanings to context of scripture and chapter to determine subject matter to determine correct interpretation of the scriptures. They do not fit your interpretation that JESUS is saying all unclean foods are now clean as that is not the context and subject matter of both the scripture *MARK 7:19 and of the chapter context shown in MARK 7:2-23....

Wrong as usual! While the EOG NT has a footnote, they chose to put the better definition in the text. If the native Greek speaking translators of the EOB NT thought "purging" was the better definition that is what they would have put in the text.
I have already proved you wrong once. All you are doing is repeating what your uninformed teachers/pastors have told you. Your unsupported opinion is irrelevant and meaningless. You probably could not parse a Geek verb if your life depended on it and you probably don't know an aorist from an apple.
καθαρίζον/cleanse was NOT added by the translators. Here is the textual apparatus from NA27 showing all the manuscripts which have καθαρίζον/cleanse. I count 88 manuscripts.

καθαρίζων] ‭א A B E F G H L W X Δ Θ 0274 f1 f13 28 180 205 565 579 892 1006 1009 1071 1216 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1424 1505 1546 1646 2427 Byzpt Lectpt syrp syrh copsa copbo eth slav Origen Gregory-Nyssa Chrysostom WH
καθαρίζον] K Γ Π Σ 33 157 597 700 1010 1079 1195 1230 1344 1365 1582c 2148 2174 2542 Byzpt Byz2005 Lectpt lAD (ita itaur itb itc itd itf itff2 itl itn itq vg καθαρίζων or καθαρίζον) Diatessarona ς
καθαρίζων τε] l70
καθαρίζει] D l185 (iti itr1 arm geo καὶ καθαρίζει) goth
καὶ καθαρίζεται] (1047 omit καὶ) syrs

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

HARK! said:
UR? Are you speaking in code?

UR = universal reconciliation. The false doctrine which states that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike even after death.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
Wrong as usual! While the EOG NT has a footnote, they chose to put the better definition in the text. If the native Greek speaking translators of the EOB NT thought "purging" was the better definition that is what they would have put in the text.

Not really dear friend, what is wrong with what I posted to you in and post # 266 linked? I posted earlier to you that the EOG NT shows both tranlslations are correct in the [k] footnote by using {or}.

Here is exactly what the EOG NT says here word for word and how it is written...

19 because it does not go into his heart but into the stomach, and then into the sewer (thus he declared all foods to be clean) K?”

Footnote
K Or “thus purging all foods”

Yep seems what I posted here is correct all right.

Now why have you posted the origen word definition of the καθαρίζον/cleanse when I have never argued about word definitions with you and have agreed with the definition you posted as well as the other definition?

This is simply a distraction as I have told you three times now that has never been the issue here. My issue with your claims is to the interpretation of the scriptures applied to both scripture and subject matter. I have already told you I believe both interpretations of καθαρίζον/cleanse or purge are correct applied to context for scripture and chapter interpretation.

It is the interpretation of the scriptures applied to context and chapter subject matter that I am arguing but I think you know this and you know what I have shared with you is correct as this was clearly demonstrated in post # 255 and post # 266 linked which shows why your inerpretation of the scriptures is in error (not the single word definition).

I believe this is why you have ignored adressing this posts and are trying to make it an argument about word definitions which I am not arguing about and told you I already agree with both definitions.

Are you seriously trying to argue a single Greek word definition (that I agree with) supersedes context and subject matter for interpretation of the scriptures?

Anyhow you are free to believe as you wish. I was only trying to help and add to the conversation as I believe your interpretation of the passage is in error and only trying to help you to see why. I will leave it between you and God to work through. I do not think I am the only one that can see through your smoke screen here. Just saying.

Thanks for the discussion.

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear friend, what is wrong with what I posted to you in and post # 266 linked? I posted earlier to you that the EOG NT shows both tranlslations are correct in the [k] footnote by using {or}.

If "purging" was the better translation that is what the Native Greek speaking translators would have put in the text.
The word καθαρίζω/katharizo, correctly translated cleansing, occurs twenty nine times in the NT. The word "purging" occurs only once, not in the text but in a footnote. Every other time katharizo occurs it is translated "cleanse."
.

HARK! · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
UR = universal reconciliation. The false doctrine which states that all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike even after death.

Why would you quote someone who in your own opinion promotes false doctrine?

Why not just go with what scripture, from trusted sources, clearly states?

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

HARK! said:
Why would you quote someone who in your own opinion promotes false doctrine?
Why not just go with what scripture, from trusted sources, clearly states?

Because many of the folks on here are UR-ites and they consider Origen the best Bible exegete ever. [He's not] So if their poster boy says something it is gospel to them.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
If "purging" was the better translation that is what the Native Greek speaking translators would have put in the text.
The word καθαρίζω/katharizo, correctly translated cleansing, occurs twenty nine times in the NT. The word "purging" occurs only once, not in the text but in a footnote. Every other time katharizo occurs it is translated "cleanse."
.

Remember I have never argued about word definitions and I have agreed with both definitions. It is to interpretation and application of these word definitions to subject matter of MARK 7:2-23 that I have posted in relation to the context of these definitions used which proves your interpretation of Mark 7:19 to be in error. This is shown in post # 255 and post # 266 linked. Please do not bring up word definitions again when I have already told you many times I agree with them. This is simply a smoke screen in my view that you and are are not arguing about.

Many thanks

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Remember I have never argued about word definitions have I and agreed with both. It is to interpretation and application to subject matter of MARK 7:2-23 that I have posted in relation to the context of these definitions used which proves your interpretation of Mark 7:19 to be in error. This is shown in post # 255 and post # 266 linked. Please do not bring up word definitions again when I have already told you many times I agree with them. This is simply a smoke screen in my view.
Many thanks

I addressed and refuted both of your posts. Quit telling me I'm wrong and I won't respond.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
I addressed and refuted both of your posts. Quit telling me I'm wrong and I won't respond.

No you didn't you simply posted a word definition that I was in agreement with. If we are in agreement how does that refute anything in post # 255 and post # 266 linked that demonstates the scripture and chapter context you have ignored? Please show me how your posts refutes what I have shared in post # 255 and post # 266 linked. If you cannot why are you making claims that are not true?

Der Alte · Apr 11, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
... The context of making all meats clean is to the "purging out of the body" and it is following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God that defile (makes unclean) the man, not what one eats which passes out of the man *Mark 7:2-23. The chapter subject matter is not to eating unclean foods as they were all JEWS who followed the food laws od LEVITICUS 11 but the subject matter was to eating food with unwashed hands, pots and cups *MARK 7:2-5....

If as you say they were all Jews who followed the food laws why would anything that went into their bodies have to be cleansed? If Jesus was talking strictly about eating with unwashed hands what could go into the body? Maybe minute particles of dirt or dust. Would Jesus refer to them as food? If the food was clean to begin with the process of digestion does not make anything clean.
Everything that issues out of the body in unclean. So please explain to me how digestion and passing waste out of the body makes anything clean?
As I said elsewhere Katharizo occurs twenty nine times in the NT. The other 28 are translated "cleanse." never "purge."

LoveGodsWord · Apr 11, 2020

Der Alter said:
If as you say they were all Jews who followed the food laws why would anything that went into their bodies have to be cleansed? If Jesus was talking strictly about eating with unwashed hands what could go into the body? Maybe minute particles of dirt or dust. Would Jesus refer to them as food? If the food was clean to begin with the process of digestion does not make anything clean.
Everything that issues out of the body in unclean. So please explain to me how digestion and passing waste out of the body makes anything clean?
As I said elsewhere Katharizo occurs twenty nine times in the NT. The other 28 are translated "cleanse." never "purge."

Please stop part quoting me. Your question has already been addressed in detail in post # 266 linked and in post # 255 earlier. What is it that you did not understand?

Using the single Greek word καθαρίζον which means "purify; cleanse make clean" (declared being added by the translators) is in context in the scripture to the word ἐκπορεύομαι which means to go out of the body or purge and after of course πάντα βρώματα (all food). The chapter context of course is to not washing of cups and pots and hands making someone κοινόω unclean or defiled not "unclean foods" which is how you are interpretation MARK 7:19 *MARK 7:2-5; MARK 7:2-23.

The point of the scripture being to the chapter context and subject matter, it is not the "washing of pots and cups and not washing of the hands that makes a man unclean (defiled)" (Mark 7:8) but breaking God's commandments and what comes out of the heart and mouth of the man that defiles (makes unclean) a man.

The context of making all meats clean is to the "purging out of the body" and it is to following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God that JESUS says defiles (makes unclean) the man, not what one eats which passes out of the man *Mark 7:2-23. The chapter subject matter is not to eating unclean foods as they were all JEWS who followed the food laws of LEVITICUS 11 but the subject matter was to eating food with unwashed hands, pots and cups *MARK 7:2-5.

I posted then the LEXICON view here of MARK 7:19 applied to context of the scripture and chapters subject matter here which is to not washing of cups and pots and not washing of the hands before eating in post # 255 earlier...

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
NT 2511: καθαρίζω
καθαρίζω (Hellenistic for καθαίρω, which classic writings use); Attic future (cf. Buttmann, 37 (32); Winers Grammar, § 13, 1 c.; WH's Appendix, p. 163) καθαριῶ (Hebrews 9:14); 1 aorist ἐκαθάρισα (see below); present passive καθαρίζομαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκαθαρίσθην; perfect passive participle κεκαθαρισμενος (Hebrews 10:2 T Tr WH; on the forms ἐκαθερισθη, T WH in Matthew 8:3; Mark 1:42 (ἐκαθερισεν, Tr in Acts 10:15; Acts 11:9) and κεκαθερισμενος Lachmann in Hebrews 10:2, cf. (Tdf. Proleg., p. 82; WH's Appendix, p. 150); Sturz, De dial. Maced. etc., p. 118; Delitzsch on Hebrews 10:2; Krüger, Part ii. § 2, 2, 6, p. 4; (Buttmann, 29 (25f); Winer's Grammar, 43)); (καθαρός; the Sept. mostly for טִהַר;

1. to make clean, to cleanse;
a. from physical stains and dirt: e. g. utensils, Matthew 23:25 (figuratively, Matthew 23:26); Luke 11:39; food, Mark 7:19; τινα, a leper, to cleanse by curing, Matthew 8:2; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Mark 1:40-42; Luke 4:27; Luke 5:12; Luke 7:22; Luke 17:14, 17 (Leviticus 14:8); to remove by cleansing: ἡ λέπρα ἐκαθαρίσθη, Matthew 8:3 (καθαριεῖς τό αἷμα τό ἀναίτιον ἐξ Ἰσραήλ, Deuteronomy 19:13; ἐκαθαριζε τήν περί ταῦτα συνήθειαν, the custom of marrying heathen women, Josephus, Antiquities 11, 5, 4; καθαιρεῖν αἷμα, Homer, Iliad 16, 667; cf. ἐκκαθαίρω).

The above post I hope demonstrated the context of MARK 7:2-23 and context supersedes single word definitions when applied in scripture and chapter interpretations in the Hebrew and the Greek.

Context matters. The above context to the rest of the scriptures and chapter topic and subject matter demonstrates your definition of καθαρίζον alone outside of context with the rest of the scripture and chapters subject matter has led you to a wrong intperpretation of these scriptures.

JESUS is not declaring all unclean foods clean as this was never the topic of conversation or subject matter or scripture or chapter context. The subject matter of context is eating food from pots and cups and unwashed hands does not make a man unclean (defiled).

Are you seriously trying to argue a single Greek word definition (that I agree with) outside of scripture and chapter context supersedes context and subject matter for interpretation of the scriptures?

If so dear friend we will have to agree to disagree.

Hope this helps.

Der Alte · Apr 12, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
Please stop part quoting me. Your question has already been addressed in detail in post # 266 linked and in post # 255 earlier. What is it that you did not understand?
Using the single Greek word καθαρίζον which means "purify; cleanse make clean" (declared being added by the translators) is in context in the scripture to the word ἐκπορεύομαι which means to go out of the body or purge and after of course πάντα βρώματα (all food). The chapter context of course is to not washing of cups and pots and hands making someone κοινόω unclean or defiled not "unclean foods" which is how you are interpretation MARK 7:19 *MARK 7:2-5; MARK 7:2-23.
The point of the scripture being to the chapter context and subject matter, it is not the "washing of pots and cups and not washing of the hands that makes a man unclean (defiled)" (Mark 7:8) but breaking God's commandments and what comes out of the heart and mouth of the man that defiles (makes unclean) a man.
The context of making all meats clean is to the "purging out of the body" and it is to following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God that JESUS says defiles (makes unclean) the man, not what one eats which passes out of the man *Mark 7:2-23. The chapter subject matter is not to eating unclean foods as they were all JEWS who followed the food laws of LEVITICUS 11 but the subject matter was to eating food with unwashed hands, pots and cups *MARK 7:2-5.
I posted then the LEXICON view here of MARK 7:19 applied to context of the scripture and chapters subject matter here which is to not washing of cups and pots and not washing of the hands before eating in post # 255 earlier...
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
NT 2511: καθαρίζω
καθαρίζω (Hellenistic for καθαίρω, which classic writings use); Attic future (cf. Buttmann, 37 (32); Winers Grammar, § 13, 1 c.; WH's Appendix, p. 163) καθαριῶ (Hebrews 9:14); 1 aorist ἐκαθάρισα (see below); present passive καθαρίζομαι; 1 aorist passive ἐκαθαρίσθην; perfect passive participle κεκαθαρισμενος (Hebrews 10:2 T Tr WH; on the forms ἐκαθερισθη, T WH in Matthew 8:3; Mark 1:42 (ἐκαθερισεν, Tr in Acts 10:15; Acts 11:9) and κεκαθερισμενος Lachmann in Hebrews 10:2, cf. (Tdf. Proleg., p. 82; WH's Appendix, p. 150); Sturz, De dial. Maced. etc., p. 118; Delitzsch on Hebrews 10:2; Krüger, Part ii. § 2, 2, 6, p. 4; (Buttmann, 29 (25f); Winer's Grammar, 43)); (καθαρός; the Sept. mostly for טִהַר;
1. to make clean, to cleanse;
a. from physical stains and dirt: e. g. utensils, Matthew 23:25 (figuratively, Matthew 23:26); Luke 11:39; food, Mark 7:19; τινα, a leper, to cleanse by curing, Matthew 8:2; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Mark 1:40-42; Luke 4:27; Luke 5:12; Luke 7:22; Luke 17:14, 17 (Leviticus 14:8); to remove by cleansing: ἡ λέπρα ἐκαθαρίσθη, Matthew 8:3 (καθαριεῖς τό αἷμα τό ἀναίτιον ἐξ Ἰσραήλ, Deuteronomy 19:13; ἐκαθαριζε τήν περί ταῦτα συνήθειαν, the custom of marrying heathen women, Josephus, Antiquities 11, 5, 4; καθαιρεῖν αἷμα, Homer, Iliad 16, 667; cf. ἐκκαθαίρω).
The above post I hope demonstrated the context of MARK 7:2-23 and context supersedes single word definitions when applied in scripture and chapter interpretations in the Hebrew and the Greek.
Context matters. The above context to the rest of the scriptures and chapter topic and subject matter demonstrates your definition of καθαρίζον alone outside of context with the rest of the scripture and chapters subject matter has led you to a wrong intperpretation of these scriptures.
JESUS is not declaring all unclean foods clean as this was never the topic of conversation or subject matter or scripture or chapter context. The subject matter of context is eating food from pots and cups and unwashed hands does not make a man unclean (defiled).
Are you seriously trying to argue a single Greek word definition (that I agree with) outside of scripture and chapter context supersedes context and subject matter for interpretation of the scriptures?
If so dear friend we will have to agree to disagree.
Hope this helps.

You keep repeating the same patently false statement over and over and over. I don't see purge anywhere in your definition. "making all foods clean" was not added by translators! If you quite making false statements I will stop responding. You saying you demonstrated something does not make it true.
I haven't been arguing about only one word. I have been talking about the entire passage. You seem to be ignoring most of what I say. I have been speaking English for almost 8 decades and do not require anyone to translate it for me. I have been speaking Greek for over 5 decades, and reading it more than 3 decades I do not require someone who does not know an aorist from and apple to explain it to me.
I have posted the translation of Mark 7:19 from the EOB. Here is the definition from BDAG. Again I don't see purge anywhere. Once again if Jesus was only taking about dirty cups and hands why is the word food in that verse? You ignored my previous argument on that.

Mark 7:19
19 For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods [βρωματα ] clean.)

The words "making all foods clean" were NOT added by a translator. I further argument on this point but will save it for my next post.

καθαρίζω (s. next entry; also καθερίζω; s. B-D-F §29, 1; W-S. §5, 20c; Mlt-H. 67) Attic fut. καθαριῶ (Hb 9:14; J 15:2 D; B-D-F §101 s.v. καθαίρειν; s. Mlt-H. 218); 3 sg.-ίσει (Num 30:13 cod. B; Mal 3:3) 1 aor. ἐκαθάρισα, impv. καθάρισον. Pass.: fut. καθαρισθήσομαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐκαθαρίσθην (also ἐκαθερίσθην: Mt 8:3b v.l.; Mk 1:42 v.l.), impv. καθαρίσθητι; pf. 3 sg. κεκαθάρισται (1 Km 20:26; TestJob 43:17), ptc. κεκαθαρισμένος. See Reinhold 38f; Thackeray 74. (H. Gk. substitute for the st. καθαίρω: as agricultural t.t. PLond I 131 recto, 192 p. 175 [78/79 A.D.]; PStras 2, 11; PLips 111, 12. In the ritual sense, mystery ins fr. Andania=SIG 736, 37; likew. 1042, 3; Jos., Ant. 10, 70; 11, 153; 12, 286; Just., Mel., P. 72, 526. The word is also found BGU 1024 IV, 16; EpArist 90 and in var. mngs. in LXX; En 10:20, 22; TestJob; TestReub 4:8; TestLevi 14:6.—Dssm., NB 43f [BS 216f]; in var. senses ‘cleanse, clear [as of an area], purify’)
① to make physically clean, make clean, cleanse τί someth. Mt 23:25f; Lk 11:39. The much-discussed passage καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα Mk 7:19 may belong here (so BWeiss; HHoltzmann; Schniewind), but s. 3a below.
② to heal a person of a disease that makes one ceremonially unclean, make clean, heal esp. leprosy
ⓐ τινά make someone clean Mt 8:2; 10:8; Mk 1:40; Lk 5:12; AcPl Ha 8, 36//BMM verso 10; s. also BMM verso 12 and 39 (Mel., P. 72, 526 τοὺς λεπρούς). Pass. (Lev 14:7 al.) Mt 11:5; Mk 1:42; Lk 4:27; 7:22; 17:14, 17; PEg2 37; καθαρίσθητι (cp. 4 Km 5:13) be clean! Mt 8:3a; Mk 1:41; Lk 5:13; 17:14 v.l.; PEg2 38.
ⓑ τί remove someth. by or for the purpose of purification (cp. Od. 6, 93 καθαίρειν ῥύπα; Epict. 2, 16, 44; 3, 24, 13) pass. ἐκαθαρίσθη αὐτοῦ ἡ λέπρα his leprosy disappeared Mt 8:3b.
③ to purify through ritual cleansing, make clean, declare clean
ⓐ a Levitical cleansing of foods make clean, declare clean (cp. Lev 13:6, 23) ἃ ὁ θεὸς ἐκαθάρισεν Ac 10:15; 11:9. Many (Origen; Field, Notes 31f; et al.) prefer to take καθαρίζων πάντα τ. βρώματα Mk 7:19 (s. 1 above) in this sense, regarding the words as an observation of the evangelist or a marginal note by a reader: he (Jesus) (hereby) declares all foods clean.—WBrandt, Jüd. Reinheitslehre u. ihre Beschreibung in den Evang. 1910.
ⓑ of moral and cultic cleansing
α. cleanse, purify fr. sin (LXX) τινά or τί: (τὰς ψυχάς Hippol., Ref. 10, 14, 10) τὴν καρδίαν Hs 6, 5, 2. τὰς καρδίας v 3, 9, 8. χεῖρας Js 4:8; ἑαυτούς Hs 8, 7, 5; τὸ ἐντὸς τ. ποτηρίου the contents of the cup, which must not be acquired in a sinful manner, nor used for a sinful purpose Mt 23:26. ἐλθέτω τὸ ἅγ. πνεῦμά σου ἐφʼ ἡμᾶς κ. καθαρισάτω ἡμᾶς let your Holy Spirit come upon us and make us pure Lk 11:2 v.l. In parable τοὺς λίθους Hs 9, 7, 2 and 6; 9, 8, 4.—Pass. Hv 4, 3, 4. ἅπαξ κεκαθαρισμένους Hb 10:2. καθαρισθήσεται ἡ ἐκκλησία Hs 9, 18, 2; cp. 3. καθαρισθήσομαι 1 Cl 18:7 (Ps 50:9).—τινὰ (τὶ) ἀπό τινος (on the constr. w. ἀπό s. the two pass. fr. SIG at the beg. of that entry; Lev 16:30 καθαρίσαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τ. ἁμαρτιῶν; Ps 18:14; 50:4; Sir 23:10; 38:10 and oft.; En 10:20, 22; PsSol 10:1; 17:22; Jos., Ant. 12, 286; TestReub 4:8; Just., D. 116, 2) κ. τινὰ ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας 1J 1:7; cp. vs. 9; 1 Cl 18:3 (Ps 50:4). κ. ἑαυτὸν ἀπὸ μολυσμοῦ σαρκός cleanse oneself from defilement of the body 2 Cor 7:1. ἀπὸ τῆς λύπης Hm 10, 3, 4. ἀπὸ πάσης ἐπιθυμίας Hs 7:2. τῶν πονηριῶν 8, 11, 3; ἀπὸ τούτου τοῦ δαιμονίου 9, 23, 5. κ. τὴν καρδίαν ἀπὸ τῆς διψυχίας cleanse the heart of doubt m 9:7. ἀπὸ τῶν ματαιωμάτων from vanities 9:4. κ. ἑαυτῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀπὸ τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν 12, 6, 5. κ. τὴν συνείδησιν ἡμῶν ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων Hb 9:14. Pass. καθαρίζεσθαι ἀπὸ τ. ἁμαρτιῶν Hv 2, 3, 1; ἀπὸ τ. ὑστερημάτων 3, 2, 2a; cp. b and 3, 8, 11.—κ. τινά (τί) τινι (dat. of instr.): τῇ πίστει καθαρίσας (i.e. God) τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν Ac 15:9. Of Christ and the community of Christians καθαρίσας τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι Eph 5:26 (OCasel, Jahrb. für Liturgiewiss. 5, 1925, 144ff). Of Christ and baptism ἵνα τῷ πάθει τὸ ὕδωρ καθαρίσῃ so that through (his) suffering he might purify the water IEph 18:2.—καθάρισον ἡμᾶς τὸν καθαρισμὸν τῆς σῆς ἀληθείας purify us w. the cleansing of your truth 1 Cl 60:2.—Of Christ and Christians κ. ἑαυτῷ λαὸν περιούσιον Tit 2:14.—PEg3 57f.
β. remove by or for the purpose of purification τὶ someth. (s. 2b and cp. Dt 19:13; κεκαθάρισται ἡμῶν ἡ ἀνομία TestJob 43:17) τὰς ἁμαρτίας τινός Hs 5, 6, 2f.
ⓒ Hb 9:22f occupies an intermediate position, since ceremon. purification and moral purification merge, and the former becomes the shadow-image of the latter.
ⓓ set free τινά τινος someone from someth. 1 Cl 16:10 (Is 53:10).—DELG s.v. καθαρός. M-M. EDNT. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 488–489). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

LoveGodsWord · Apr 12, 2020

Der Alter said:
You keep repeating the same patently false statement over and over and over. I don't see purge anywhere in your definition. "making all foods clean" was not added by translators! If you quite making false statements I will stop responding. You saying you demonstrated something does not make it true.
I haven't been arguing about only one word. I have been talking about the entire passage. You seem to be ignoring most of what I say. I have been speaking English for almost 8 decades and do not require anyone to translate it for me. I have been speaking Greek for over 5 decades, and reading it more than 3 decades I do not require someone who does not know an aorist from and apple to explain it to me.
I have posted the translation of Mark 7:19 from the EOB. Here is the definition from BDAG. Again I don't see purge anywhere. Once again if Jesus was only taking about dirty cups and hands why is the word food in that verse? You ignored my previous argument on that.

Mark 7:19
19 For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods [βρωματα ] clean.)
The words "making all foods clean" were NOT added by a translator. I further argument on this point but will save it for my next post.

καθαρίζω (s. next entry; also καθερίζω; s. B-D-F §29, 1; W-S. §5, 20c; Mlt-H. 67) Attic fut. καθαριῶ (Hb 9:14; J 15:2 D; B-D-F §101 s.v. καθαίρειν; s. Mlt-H. 218); 3 sg.-ίσει (Num 30:13 cod. B; Mal 3:3) 1 aor. ἐκαθάρισα, impv. καθάρισον. Pass.: fut. καθαρισθήσομαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐκαθαρίσθην (also ἐκαθερίσθην: Mt 8:3b v.l.; Mk 1:42 v.l.), impv. καθαρίσθητι; pf. 3 sg. κεκαθάρισται (1 Km 20:26; TestJob 43:17), ptc. κεκαθαρισμένος. See Reinhold 38f; Thackeray 74. (H. Gk. substitute for the st. καθαίρω: as agricultural t.t. PLond I 131 recto, 192 p. 175 [78/79 A.D.]; PStras 2, 11; PLips 111, 12. In the ritual sense, mystery ins fr. Andania=SIG 736, 37; likew. 1042, 3; Jos., Ant. 10, 70; 11, 153; 12, 286; Just., Mel., P. 72, 526. The word is also found BGU 1024 IV, 16; EpArist 90 and in var. mngs. in LXX; En 10:20, 22; TestJob; TestReub 4:8; TestLevi 14:6.—Dssm., NB 43f [BS 216f]; in var. senses ‘cleanse, clear [as of an area], purify’)
① to make physically clean, make clean, cleanse τί someth. Mt 23:25f; Lk 11:39. The much-discussed passage καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα Mk 7:19 may belong here (so BWeiss; HHoltzmann; Schniewind), but s. 3a below.
② to heal a person of a disease that makes one ceremonially unclean, make clean, heal esp. leprosy
ⓐ τινά make someone clean Mt 8:2; 10:8; Mk 1:40; Lk 5:12; AcPl Ha 8, 36//BMM verso 10; s. also BMM verso 12 and 39 (Mel., P. 72, 526 τοὺς λεπρούς). Pass. (Lev 14:7 al.) Mt 11:5; Mk 1:42; Lk 4:27; 7:22; 17:14, 17; PEg2 37; καθαρίσθητι (cp. 4 Km 5:13) be clean! Mt 8:3a; Mk 1:41; Lk 5:13; 17:14 v.l.; PEg2 38.
ⓑ τί remove someth. by or for the purpose of purification (cp. Od. 6, 93 καθαίρειν ῥύπα; Epict. 2, 16, 44; 3, 24, 13) pass. ἐκαθαρίσθη αὐτοῦ ἡ λέπρα his leprosy disappeared Mt 8:3b.
③ to purify through ritual cleansing, make clean, declare clean
ⓐ a Levitical cleansing of foods make clean, declare clean (cp. Lev 13:6, 23) ἃ ὁ θεὸς ἐκαθάρισεν Ac 10:15; 11:9. Many (Origen; Field, Notes 31f; et al.) prefer to take καθαρίζων πάντα τ. βρώματα Mk 7:19 (s. 1 above) in this sense, regarding the words as an observation of the evangelist or a marginal note by a reader: he (Jesus) (hereby) declares all foods clean.—WBrandt, Jüd. Reinheitslehre u. ihre Beschreibung in den Evang. 1910.
ⓑ of moral and cultic cleansing
α. cleanse, purify fr. sin (LXX) τινά or τί: (τὰς ψυχάς Hippol., Ref. 10, 14, 10) τὴν καρδίαν Hs 6, 5, 2. τὰς καρδίας v 3, 9, 8. χεῖρας Js 4:8; ἑαυτούς Hs 8, 7, 5; τὸ ἐντὸς τ. ποτηρίου the contents of the cup, which must not be acquired in a sinful manner, nor used for a sinful purpose Mt 23:26. ἐλθέτω τὸ ἅγ. πνεῦμά σου ἐφʼ ἡμᾶς κ. καθαρισάτω ἡμᾶς let your Holy Spirit come upon us and make us pure Lk 11:2 v.l. In parable τοὺς λίθους Hs 9, 7, 2 and 6; 9, 8, 4.—Pass. Hv 4, 3, 4. ἅπαξ κεκαθαρισμένους Hb 10:2. καθαρισθήσεται ἡ ἐκκλησία Hs 9, 18, 2; cp. 3. καθαρισθήσομαι 1 Cl 18:7 (Ps 50:9).—τινὰ (τὶ) ἀπό τινος (on the constr. w. ἀπό s. the two pass. fr. SIG at the beg. of that entry; Lev 16:30 καθαρίσαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τ. ἁμαρτιῶν; Ps 18:14; 50:4; Sir 23:10; 38:10 and oft.; En 10:20, 22; PsSol 10:1; 17:22; Jos., Ant. 12, 286; TestReub 4:8; Just., D. 116, 2) κ. τινὰ ἀπὸ πάσης ἁμαρτίας 1J 1:7; cp. vs. 9; 1 Cl 18:3 (Ps 50:4). κ. ἑαυτὸν ἀπὸ μολυσμοῦ σαρκός cleanse oneself from defilement of the body 2 Cor 7:1. ἀπὸ τῆς λύπης Hm 10, 3, 4. ἀπὸ πάσης ἐπιθυμίας Hs 7:2. τῶν πονηριῶν 8, 11, 3; ἀπὸ τούτου τοῦ δαιμονίου 9, 23, 5. κ. τὴν καρδίαν ἀπὸ τῆς διψυχίας cleanse the heart of doubt m 9:7. ἀπὸ τῶν ματαιωμάτων from vanities 9:4. κ. ἑαυτῶν τὰς καρδίας ἀπὸ τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν 12, 6, 5. κ. τὴν συνείδησιν ἡμῶν ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων Hb 9:14. Pass. καθαρίζεσθαι ἀπὸ τ. ἁμαρτιῶν Hv 2, 3, 1; ἀπὸ τ. ὑστερημάτων 3, 2, 2a; cp. b and 3, 8, 11.—κ. τινά (τί) τινι (dat. of instr.): τῇ πίστει καθαρίσας (i.e. God) τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν Ac 15:9. Of Christ and the community of Christians καθαρίσας τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι Eph 5:26 (OCasel, Jahrb. für Liturgiewiss. 5, 1925, 144ff). Of Christ and baptism ἵνα τῷ πάθει τὸ ὕδωρ καθαρίσῃ so that through (his) suffering he might purify the water IEph 18:2.—καθάρισον ἡμᾶς τὸν καθαρισμὸν τῆς σῆς ἀληθείας purify us w. the cleansing of your truth 1 Cl 60:2.—Of Christ and Christians κ. ἑαυτῷ λαὸν περιούσιον Tit 2:14.—PEg3 57f.
β. remove by or for the purpose of purification τὶ someth. (s. 2b and cp. Dt 19:13; κεκαθάρισται ἡμῶν ἡ ἀνομία TestJob 43:17) τὰς ἁμαρτίας τινός Hs 5, 6, 2f.
ⓒ Hb 9:22f occupies an intermediate position, since ceremon. purification and moral purification merge, and the former becomes the shadow-image of the latter.
ⓓ set free τινά τινος someone from someth. 1 Cl 16:10 (Is 53:10).—DELG s.v. καθαρός. M-M. EDNT. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 488–489). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Why do you keep bringing up word definitions when we already agree on them?

What you have posted is not relevant to the post of mine you are quoting from. It is simply a word definition for which I have already told you I agree.

Why are you still blowing smoke screens and making strawman arguments that no one is disagreeing with? I have told you 5 times now I agree with you and I believe both definitions to καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα wheather "purge all meats" or "makes all meat clean" as posted earlier it makes no difference to me as I believe both are correct but it is to the context and subject matter which defines interpretation of the scriptures I am talking about.

I do not know how many times to say it to you. I accept both definitions as both definitions agree with the scripture and chapter context and subject matter. This is what you are ignoring and it has lead you to eisegesis as opossed to a correct exegetical method of scripture interpretation.

The chapter context of course is in context to not washing of cups and pots and hands making someone κοινόω unclean or defiled not Jesus is now saying all "unclean foods" are now clean which is how you are interpretating MARK 7:19 *MARK 7:2-5; MARK 7:2-23.

The point of the scripture being to the chapter context and subject matter, it is not the "washing of pots and cups and not washing of the hands that makes a man unclean (defiled)" (Mark 7:8) but breaking God's commandments and what comes out of the heart and mouth of the man that defiles (makes unclean) a man.

The context of making all meats clean is to the "what is coming out of the body" and it is to following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God over the Word of God that JESUS says defiles (makes unclean) the man, not what one eats which passes out of the man *Mark 7:2-23.

Mark 7:14-15, [14] And when he had called all the people to him, he said to them, Listen to me every one of you, and understand: [15], There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Chapter context of this in turn is to...

Mark 7:2-4 [2], And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashed, hands, they found fault. [3], For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. [4], And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.

The chapter subject matter is not to eating unclean foods as they were all JEWS who followed the food laws of LEVITICUS 11 but the subject matter was to eating food with unwashed hands, pots and cups *MARK 7:2-5.

The above post demonstrates the context of MARK 7:2-23 and context supersedes single word definitions when applied in scripture and chapter interpretations in the Hebrew and the Greek.

Context matters. The above context to the rest of the scriptures and chapter topic and subject matter demonstrates your definition of καθαρίζον alone outside of context with the rest of the scripture and chapters subject matter has led you to a wrong intperpretation of these scriptures.

JESUS is not declaring all unclean foods clean as this was never the topic of conversation or subject matter or scripture or chapter context. The subject matter of context is eating food from pots and cups and unwashed hands does not make a man unclean (defiled).

Are you seriously trying to argue a single Greek word definition (that I agree with) outside of scripture and chapter context supersedes context and subject matter for interpretation of the scriptures?

I believe dear friend by focusing only on a single word definition without reference to the scripture context and chapter topic and subject matter of conversation has led you to misinterpret the scriptures which is like looking at a leaf and not seeing the tree it is connected to or seeing the tree within the forest which is like saying "Here is a leaf" but not seeing that it is actually only a part of a tree within a forest trees.

Goodness dear friend receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Context matters.

Every jot and tittle

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

שמע

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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