How Could God allow this?

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

nolidad said:
Well we do know that God in His omniscience and omnipotence did allow this.

But what most believers forget is that once God created the universe He also had created what we call the natural laws to govern the universe. (gravity, thermodynamics etc.) When Adam fell the entire universe was cursed as we know form Gen. 3 and Romans 8. So little tiny orgsanisms became viruses and things that were created "good" (Genesis1) now started becoming "ungood". IOW things started mutationg and came under the laws God set in place to govern His creation. The covid-19 virus is simply a natural result of a fallen world and things mutating in that fallen world and affecting the fallen in habitants in a fallen world.

So God put man in charge and then after that man is responsible for the problems he causes?

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

Sophrosyne said:
One could say like the Bible says.... God created everything in the beginning, and created it all to be self sustaining and corruption (sin) has caused the Bundy's of the world to exist.

Is that your experience, God is hands off?

Dave L · Apr 11, 2020

When God killed Nadab and Abihu Moses warned Aaron and his other sons not to mourn their deaths or have remorse. It would mean they thought God was bad for killing them. Are we not guilty of the same when we ask "how could God allow this"? As though we disapprove of his punishing sinners with death? I sit back in awe watching him balance the scales that scripture gives plenty of warning for.

dcalling · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
OK, but if God is omniscient He foresaw this, if He is omnipotent He had the power and authority to prevent evil, and if He is a morally perfect God He would not allow the sadistic and evil treatment of his creation. See my posts #6, #14 and #20. I think it is a Biblical response that a software engineer would appreciate.

And that is why I quote the idea of "HisStory", and this is a big show God designed, and we are all actors in it. And you misunderstood my engineering part, I am using it as an example to say, God designed us to not be machines, we have our own thoughts, and we are acting on it, that is what made it more interesting

Edit: just read some of your post, I think we are in agreement on some (i.e. the world might be a simulation), but I don't agree evil is simulated, the act might be simulated but evil is real, have you ever became angry or envy? Those are the things that separate us from God and need Jesus to fill in. As the moment Adam/Eve take the fruit, we became capable of this and it is much easier for us to sin than to follow God.

Dave L · Apr 11, 2020

Sophrosyne said:
Again Jesus didn't speak English and I see no Greek or Aramaic being quoted here.

In Which Passages Does Jesus Quote the Septuagint, and Where Does the New Testament Allude to the Septuagint?

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

Dave L said:
When God killed Nadab and Abihu Moses warned Aaron and his other sons not to mourn their deaths or have remorse. It would mean they thought God was bad for killing them. Are we not guilty of the same when we ask "how could God allow this"? As though we disapprove of his punishing sinners with death? I sit back in awe watching him balance the scales that scripture gives plenty of warning for.

I don't see anyone disapproving of God, instead I see this as worshipping God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and a good God.

zoidar · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
Do you believe God is omniscient? If so He foresaw that Lucifer would become Satan. Do you believe He is omnipotent? If so He could prevent any evil that you ascribe to Satan. Just like Truman, "the buck stops here". God is the creator, therefore He is responsible for His creation.

God is not responsible for evil. I don't have all the answers, but God is GOOD.

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

zoidar said:
God is not responsible for evil. I don't have all the answers, but God is GOOD.

Agreed

Religiot · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
Agreed, but I think it is good to be prepared to give an account. I also think investigating truths like the Tree of knowledge, and death are very important.

Yes, it is important to give an account, in-fact, it is required.

And, yes, brother, of course, investigating, and studying the scriptures is very important, but above that, is obedience: and that's what I'm advocating.

PS: I would love to study with you, the topics you mentioned, because they are very interesting to me.

Godspeed.

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

Religiot said:
Yes, it is important to give an account, in-fact, it is required.

The motivation for this thread was the very many times this question popped up in regards to Corona Virus. I feel this pandemic is an opportunity for the gospel. But many will need to comforted with the assurance that God's thoughts toward them are only good and not evil.

setst777 · Apr 11, 2020

Dave L said:
Paul refutes you in Romans 5.

Romans 5 does not state we are condemned for Adam's sin; rather, that since Adam, all have sinned.

Romans 5:12-14 (WEB)
12 Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned. 13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.

Therefore, ever since Adam, people have sinned, and by their own sins they die.

Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Why did death pass to all men?
Answer: Because all sinned.

No Scripture states that we die for Adam's sin.

Paul clearly states that sin was in the world before any law was given, but when God made a Law that was not obeyed, such as not eating of the Tree of Knowledge, then that sin was counted against them.

Romans 5:13 (WEB)
13 For until the law, sin was in the world; but sin is not charged when there is no law.

Therefore, ever since Adam (the first human to walk the earth), people have sinned, but that sin does not produce death until a Law is made showing us not to commit that sin.

Therefore the Law was given as our school master or tutor to show us our sins - we are then condemned by those sins because of the Law given - and then bring us to Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:24 (WEB)
24 So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But before any Law of God was given, God did not count any sin against them.

Acts 17:30 (WEB) 30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

But once the Law was given, Adam and all others after him, have broken God's Laws and are condemned for their own sins.

See also:

Romans 2:10-12 (WEB)
10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who does good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without the law will also perish without the law.
As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 7:7-8 (WEB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn’t have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn’t have known coveting, unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” [Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21] 8 But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

Blessings

nolidad · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
So God put man in charge and then after that man is responsible for the problems he causes?

Well God did give man dominion over the planet. But in a fallen world everything has gone corrupted! Natural laws God put in place became corrupted as well ( volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas, comet collisions etc) so disease is simply a corruption and the result of the fall. God intervenes in teh natural order of things (though fallen as it is) when It suits Him, for His glory!

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

nolidad said:
Well God did give man dominion over the planet. But in a fallen world everything has gone corrupted! Natural laws God put in place became corrupted as well ( volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas, comet collisions etc) so disease is simply a corruption and the result of the fall. God intervenes in teh natural order of things (though fallen as it is) when It suits Him, for His glory!

So then Jesus is Lord, doesn't that make Jesus responsible?

nolidad · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
So then Jesus is Lord, doesn't that make Jesus responsible?

Well nothing happens without God allowing it, so God is always the first cause of everything in that sense.

But God allowed evil, He did not force it. In that He allows it, He uses it to serve His will, in ways we as mortal men do not yet understand.

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

nolidad said:
Well nothing happens without God allowing it, so God is always the first cause of everything in that sense.

But God allowed evil, He did not force it. In that He allows it, He uses it to serve His will, in ways we as mortal men do not yet understand.

We are instructed to pray according to God's will. That indicates to me that we can understand His will.

renniks · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
There have been many different threads which have asked this question about Corona virus. Many of the posters assert that God is the creator of all things (agreed) that He is omnipotent and omniscient (agreed) and that given these criteria coronavirus could not have taken place without His allowing it (agreed). He foresaw it would happen (omniscient), He created it (creator of all things) and He had the power to prevent it (omnipotent). I agree with all of this.

Others, also quoting scriptures point out that God is love (agreed), He is a merciful and good God (agreed), in Him is no darkness (agreed), His thoughts for us are good and not evil (agreed). How do you reconcile these two?

This is commonly known as the problem of evil and is a logical argument used by atheists to deny that God exists. Their argument is that the definition of God is that He is the creator of all things (agreed). Evil exists (agreed). Therefore God created evil (disagree and will explain). There are many ways that Christians try to squirm out of this and they are not scriptural. They make Satan (Lucifer was also created by God) into some kind of powerful being who has the ability to create evil and sin even though he is a created being by God (this does not change the fact that if evil exists, it was part of the creation that God created). For example the Bible says God cannot lie. How then could he create a universe in which there are lies and liars?

Therefore I wanted to open this thread up to Christians so that we could examine the scriptures and understand "How could God allow this to happen?"

You might as well ask why God allows bugs that bite or nerves that allow us to feel pain.
The Bible answered this question in the first book. This world is under the curse of sin until he remakes it. Why?
Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life."

God created a perfect world, but man chose to rebel.
This virus is just a little taste of the suffering caused by sin since the fall.

ZNP · Apr 11, 2020

renniks said:
God created a perfect world, but man chose to rebel. This virus is just a little taste of the suffering caused by sin since the fall.

That is a fair reading, but Romans says all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose.

The Bible also says that the believers are destined to rule with the Lord. So then although you might not feel responsible for the mess due to man's rebellion, the day will come when you are the one who is responsible. Seems like now is a very good time to prepare for that day.

Heart2Soul · Apr 11, 2020

It is a good question and my best answer came from the Book of Job.
Satan came before God and He inquired what was he up to...Satan says like a roaring lion searching to and fro seeking whom I may devour.
God asked him...have considered my servant Job.
Satan Yes, but you have a hedge of protection around him and I can't touch him.
God took away that hedge and told him to do whatever he wanted but don't take his life.
So after Satan attacked Job....Job went into prayer and in the end Job never once cursed God and gave God Glory for He is a Sovereign God and for his good pleasure He created all things and it is His to give and to take away.
So what was the purpose of all this? His Word says our faith will tested by fire....Paul said we rejoice in trials and tribulations for they are the working of our patience (which I believe this to be connected with our faith).

chilehed · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
Therefore I wanted to open this thread up to Christians so that we could examine the scriptures and understand "How could God allow this to happen?"

Easy: He allows it to happen because it's better for us for it to happen than it is for it to not happen.

Religiot · Apr 11, 2020

ZNP said:
The motivation for this thread was the very many times this question popped up in regards to Corona Virus. I feel this pandemic is an opportunity for the gospel. But many will need to comforted with the assurance that God's thoughts toward them are only good and not evil.

Yes, brother, I agree with you.

God is calling all men everywhere to repent, and any reminder of our mortality is always a comfort to Christians and a horror to unbelievers, because God's thoughts are only good towards His children, even before they are born-again, but His thoughts are evil towards those who hate Him, even before they are ever born: for it is by His foreknowledge that He has predestined us, and He has known us before the world was, thus He has given us of His Spirit, to empower us, for times of trouble, and for times of peace: in times of trouble as comfort, and in times of peace as conviction, and this to all men for His own glory.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." --Isaiah 45:7

"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; if that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; if it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." --Jeremiah 18:7-10

So be at peace, brother, for God knows those who are His; and be also empowered, to warn those who hate Him, that they might just meet Him, a lot sooner than they think.

How Could God allow this?

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