How Could God allow this?

ZNP

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There have been many different threads which have asked this question about Corona virus. Many of the posters assert that God is the creator of all things (agreed) that He is omnipotent and omniscient (agreed) and that given these criteria coronavirus could not have taken place without His allowing it (agreed). He foresaw it would happen (omniscient), He created it (creator of all things) and He had the power to prevent it (omnipotent). I agree with all of this.

Others, also quoting scriptures point out that God is love (agreed), He is a merciful and good God (agreed), in Him is no darkness (agreed), His thoughts for us are good and not evil (agreed). How do you reconcile these two?

This is commonly known as the problem of evil and is a logical argument used by atheists to deny that God exists. Their argument is that the definition of God is that He is the creator of all things (agreed). Evil exists (agreed). Therefore God created evil (disagree and will explain). There are many ways that Christians try to squirm out of this and they are not scriptural. They make Satan (Lucifer was also created by God) into some kind of powerful being who has the ability to create evil and sin even though he is a created being by God (this does not change the fact that if evil exists, it was part of the creation that God created). For example the Bible says God cannot lie. How then could he create a universe in which there are lies and liars?

Therefore I wanted to open this thread up to Christians so that we could examine the scriptures and understand "How could God allow this to happen?"
 

Dave L

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The best answer I found so far comes from the Clark/Vantil debates. It runs along Epicurus' lines of reasoning. As stated by Gordon Clark, Presbyterian, philosophy teacher at Butler University, Indianapolis In. Gordon Haddon Clark (August 31, 1902 – April 9, 1985)

"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil. If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
 
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ZNP

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Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."

Is it righteous to judge man for sin if God caused man to sin?
 
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Dave L

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Is it righteous to judge man for sin if God caused man to sin?
The person chose to sin and became liable. Even though God who cannot sin provided the reason for him to base his sinful choice on. As I understand.
 
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And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (John 9:1-3)

I'd have thought theodicy, the so-called 'problem of evil', was answered perfectly and for all time at Calvary.

If I was to show you my new car, you might be impressed by its features. But what if I introduced you an old rusty bomb in my shed, then next time round showed how I'd restored it to mint condition? 'What a great renovation!', you'd exclaim, and not 'How did you let it get so bad in the first place?'
 
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ZNP

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Whenever you are presented with a logical argument and you agree with all the premises but don't agree with the conclusion, it indicates they have left out a few key premises.

I would argue that one absolutely critical premise to this argument that most do not bring up is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God created this tree and planted it in the garden. The only commandment we had was to not eat it, and we are told that the day in which we eat it we will die. It also causes us to be expelled from the garden. However, it is a good tree, created by God, that causes us to know good and evil, just like God. Death is not evil, in fact it serves a very important purpose.

8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [n]eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Death is a boundary that has been set up by God.
When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His [k]command,
 
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ZNP

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And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (John 9:1-3)

I'd have thought theodicy, the so-called 'problem of evil', was answered perfectly and for all time at Calvary.

If I was to show you my new car, you might be impressed by its features. But what if I introduced you an old rusty bomb in my shed, then next time round showed how I'd restored it to mint condition? 'What a great renovation!', you'd exclaim, and not 'How did you let it get so bad in the first place?'
That is a powerful argument. All the things that we see are an opportunity to manifest God, His love, His power, His wisdom.

But it is also like salt in the wounds for the person whose child died without God being manifested.

To me this is a portion of the answer, but not the full answer.
 
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ZNP

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The person chose to sin and became liable. Even though God who cannot sin provided the reason for him to base his sinful choice on. As I understand.
So we have to look at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that is where man chose to disobey God's command.
 
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ZNP

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I think that God allows bad things to happen for the greater good. Sometimes the pain has to be so great that it forces a person to change.
So you would go to a funeral of a child that died from cancer and tell the parents that their kid died for the greater good?

I think the answer to this question would be a great comfort to all of us, and I have shared it with people at a funeral.
 
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Dave L

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So we have to look at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that is where man chose to disobey God's command.
I believe it God created Adam perfect. But when given a law to break, it is what he wanted most.
 
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AllDayFaith

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So you would go to a funeral of a child that died from cancer and tell the parents that their kid died for the greater good?
Some of us believers understand that God is working all things for our good. This includes sickness and death. Even tragedy such as murder and rape. We are being refined into pure gold by going through the fire.
 
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ZNP

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I believe it God created Adam perfect. But when given a law to break, it is what he wanted most.
True, but the tree was created by God, it was a good tree, it did make on wise knowing good and evil like God, and that tree was put in the garden by God.

Clearly God gave man the choice, one was a simple path, trust me without knowing good and evil, the other one meant we would be wiser and have more understanding, but it is certainly a more difficult path involving death. I would compare the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to the scientific method of learning how the creation works by trial and error. We have certainly gained a much deeper understanding of the creation from science, but it also comes with many risks which is why we do experiments in controlled environments like a lab. Basically God said if you want to be wise like Me knowing good an evil we will need to do that in a controlled environment. Death is that control, just like putting a boundary on the sea is a control. If you take the route of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will get Hitler, you will get the holocaust, so we need to put a control on this, everyone dies, generally in 70 years give or take.
 
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ZNP

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Yep he creates evil and good.
So how do you reconcile this verse with "in Him is no darkness at all" and "God cannot lie". They also are in the Bible.
 
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ZNP

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Some of us believers understand that God is working all things for our good. This includes sickness and death. Even tragedy such as murder and rape. We are being refined into pure gold by going through the fire.
Well that is great, if you understand this then you can certainly answer this question.
 
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Dave L

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True, but the tree was created by God, it was a good tree, it did make on wise knowing good and evil like God, and that tree was put in the garden by God.

Clearly God gave man the choice, one was a simple path, trust me without knowing good and evil, the other one meant we would be wiser and have more understanding, but it is certainly a more difficult path involving death. I would compare the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to the scientific method of learning how the creation works by trial and error. We have certainly gained a much deeper understanding of the creation from science, but it also comes with many risks which is why we do experiments in controlled environments like a lab. Basically God said if you want to be wise like Me knowing good an evil we will need to do that in a controlled environment. Death is that control, just like putting a boundary on the sea is a control. If you take the route of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will get Hitler, you will get the holocaust, so we need to put a control on this, everyone dies, generally in 70 years give or take.
But many things, including our nature, determine what we choose.
 
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But it is also like salt in the wounds for the person whose child died without God being manifested.

Only if they misunderstand its meaning. Mary was that mother whose child died the worst of all possible deaths.

To me this is a portion of the answer, but not the full answer.

What else have you got there?
 
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AllDayFaith

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Yep he creates evil and good.
Where in the Bible is this located? I don't remember this one.

Alright I found it, Isaiah 45:7

This goes against other verses of the Bible that I've read. I truly don't understand God sometimes.
 
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ZNP

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What else have you got there?
We need a revelation of death.

1. Jesus said not to fear him who can kill the body but can't hurt the soul, rather fear him that after you die can then cast your soul into hell.

2. Our soul is eternal. Once we die we wait for the final judgement.

3. In that judgement we will be judged for every word we spoke, everything we did.

This reminds me of the movie "Sully" where the pilot sits in a large trial where they are examining every word and action they took. During that examination they run various simulations where the airplane crashes into apartment complexes killing everyone on board as well as those on the ground. But they are simulations, no one really views that as evil, simply little pixels on a screen changing color.

4. We are told our life is a vapor, like those little pixels on the computer screen when Sully was sitting at his judgement seat.

5. We are told that we will enter eternity. Compared to eternity what is our life, it is like spending a Sunday afternoon playing a board game or playing a computer simulation.

6. In Hebrews it says that we are surrounded with a great cloud of witnesses, like being in a stadium on the field of battle, and that they are all cheering us on because apart from us they cannot be made perfect.

We are a team. If your child dies, they are still part of the team, they are simply on the sidelines cheering you on because as a team you will all be made perfect.

So I would argue that our life is like a computer simulation in many ways. When we chose to take the tree of the knowledge of good and evil so that we could be wise, knowing good and evil and be like God, He set up our life like a computer simulation so that we could not do any real damage. All the evil in the world is simply simulated evil. Hitler could kill the body but had no power over the soul. So yes, God created the evil, but it is simulated evil, so yes, in God is light and there is no darkness, and yes God's thoughts for us are good and not evil, and yes God is love, and yes God is omniscient, and yes God is omnipotent and yes all things came into being by the word of God and apart from the word of God nothing that exists has come into being.
 
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