Not Subject to the Law?
- Thread starter HARK!
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Paul divides sinners into 2 groups: those who sin without the law, and those who sin under the law....
Rom 2:12 "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."
Then in verse 14 Paul says that Gentiles belong to the group without the law. The law they have is written in their hearts (their conscience). That means only Jews (non-Gentiles) belong to the group who are under the Law.
Rom 2:14 "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them"
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Yep, Gentile sinners perish without being judged by the law because they are not are under the law. The law they are judged by is the one written in their hearts (their conscience). In contrast Jews will be judged by the Law because they are under the law.
Two groups.
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- Oct 29, 2017
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Umm... When you die; you don't get to be judged. If the law was written on their hearts; they would obey it.
(CLV) Mt 19:17
Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."
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Eh?
Heb 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment"
It is not the law itself that is written in their hearts, it is the "work of the law"
Rom 2:15 "they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness"
ie the moral aspects of the law is written in their conscience - not to murder, not to lie, not to commit adultery, etc.
Clearly it is not the 10 commandments that is written in Gentile hearts, because no gentile instinctively feels they should keep the sabbath.
The rich young ruler was a self righteous JEW.
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expos4ever
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Clearly untrue in the sense that, with respect to the matter of law, Paul repeatedly distinguishes the Jew from the Gentile. And being subject to the Law of Moses is precisely what marks out such distinction.
To wit:
16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with (U)grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to (W)those who are of the faith of Abraham,
Now then, since you appear to believe that the Law of Moses is for all human beings, let's see how this statement from Paul works if we replace "those who are of the Law" with "all humanity":
16For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with (U)grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to all humanity, but also to (W)those who are of the faith of Abraham,
I suggest the problem is obvious.
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- Oct 7, 2018
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.....and then the next verse puts these verses in perspective.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
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expos4ever
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Whether they do so intentionally or not, those who argue that the Law of Moses is applicable to all take advantage of the fact that Paul uses the word "law" to mean different things in different settings.
Do not be fooled by this.
Consider this text as just one example:
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
It is simply not possible for a Biblically literate person to read these words, take them seriously, and come away from the reading believing that this "law" that the Gentile obeys is the Law of Moses.
And yet, of course, people will do so, as you will see from the replies to this very post.
Do not be fooled by this.
Consider this text as just one example:
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
It is simply not possible for a Biblically literate person to read these words, take them seriously, and come away from the reading believing that this "law" that the Gentile obeys is the Law of Moses.
And yet, of course, people will do so, as you will see from the replies to this very post.
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- Oct 7, 2018
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I believe you are missing what Paul is driving at, "walking in the Spirit". This is what keeps us in the New Covenant the "Law of Jesus Christ of Nazareth". Paul is not talking about the Torah and the 613 Mitzvot.
Be blessed.
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Which laws are you referring to? This will be helpful to many moving on in this thread.
Thank you in advance for the clarification.
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expos4ever
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As always, context is important:
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
Who rescues Paul? Jesus, of course. So this passage is in Paul's past. He is certainly no longer a wretched man! One very unfortunate consequence of how the Bible has been translated is the chapter divisions - if you stop at the end of Romans 7, you may fail to see that this chunk of text (above) lies in the past.
Why the present tense, then? Probably because Paul is identifying, for the sake of his argument, with the ongoing plight of the Jew under the Law of Moses. Let's be clear: while such an explanation may seems contrived, it is far less awkward than any explanation that requires these verses to describe Paul's present state. Why? Because, as a believer (and this is especially clear if you read on into Romans 8), Paul the believer is most certainly not "a prisoner of the law of sin at work within him". He has been set free!
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
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- Jun 6, 2014
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Under the law in that context means living against the law, meaning you live a life contrary to the way the law teaches to live.
if you follow the Spirit, you won’t disobey and break God’s law.
Following God’s spirit = obedience to the law
following the flesh = disobedience to God’s law
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expos4ever
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Really? That is awfully contrived.
To say one in "under a law" means one is subject to it. Or that it applies to you.
Consider this phrase:
I am under no obligation to give you my name, officer.
Does this mean that I am "living contrary to some expectation or rule"? No, it means that I do not fall within the scope of application of your demand.
....or this:
I am under consideration for the manager position.
This means that the scope of those considered includes me.
Please give us one example from normal english usage that works the way you think "under" works here in Galatians 5:18.
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I’m going by how Paul is using the phrase “under the law” here (exegesis)
to use outside examples and place it onto what the writers are saying is eisegesis, which is what you are doing.
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expos4ever
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What?! How is it exegesis to deform the meaning of the word "under" to suit your purposes. What evidence do you offer that Paul is using the word in the sense you believe he is? And why can you not provide an example of the word "under" being used as you suggest it is here?
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In no way, shape or form can "you are not under the law" be stretched to mean 'you will not disobey the law'.
The word 'under' means to be under the power of something.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing: Romans 3:9; Romans 6:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 9:20; Galatians 3:10, 25; Galatians 4:2, 21; Galatians 5:18; 1 Timothy 6:1;
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The surrounding context of Galatians 5:18.
that’s why we should let the Bible speak for itself(exegesis), rather than us try to speak for the Bible.
we can see what it is actually saying if we stop trying to place our idea of what it’s saying onto the text(eisegesis)
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