The Watchers, Giants and Hollow Earth

SPF

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The scriptures do say that Enoch gave a prophecy concerning the return of the Lord, but that prophecy is only found within the book of Enoch, chapter 2.
Again, as a Christian - I acknowledge the books of the Bible as the inspired, inherent Word of God. The book of Enoch was and is excluded from Scripture.

Therefore, while there may be elements of truth contained within the book of Enoch, we as Christians can unequivocally acknowledge that the Book of Enoch is NOT inspired Scripture, is NOT to be considered authoritative like Scripture, and therefore most likely contains errors and untruths because it was NOT protected and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
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SPF

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The scriptures do say that Enoch gave a prophecy concerning the return of the Lord, but that prophecy is only found within the book of Enoch, chapter 2.
Fact of the matter is that because Enoch is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the book is NOT part of the Word of God, we cannot rely on or trust that any prophecies that it makes are actually true. The entirety of the book of Enoch that we have today may be wholly corrupted.
 
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SeventyOne

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Fact of the matter is that because Enoch is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the book is NOT part of the Word of God, we cannot rely on or trust that any prophecies that it makes are actually true. The entirety of the book of Enoch that we have today may be wholly corrupted.

And yet prophecies are given by God and it is quoted as true within the book of Jude. It's also referenced to by Jesus in Mark 12:24-25, and He even calls them scriptures. So, if we don't consider it scripture, then that's a sin on our own heads.
 
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SPF

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And yet prophecies are given by God and it is quoted as true within the book of Jude. It's also referenced to by Jesus in Mark 12:24-25, and He even calls them scriptures. So, if we don't consider it scripture, then that's a sin on our own heads.
So you’re asserting that the Canon was wrongly closed and there is actually another inspired book of Scripture that ought to have been included?
 
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SeventyOne

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So you’re asserting that the Canon was wrongly closed and there is actually another inspired book of Scripture that ought to have been included?

Just depends on the closed canon used by which group you are speaking about. There are several versions of 'closed' canons. You are assuming you have the right one?

I do know that God will allow His people to go without books He's inspired for a time. He's done it before.
 
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SPF

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Just depends on the closed canon used by which group you are speaking about. There are several versions of 'closed' canons. You are assuming you have the right one?

I do know that God will allow His people to go without books He's inspired for a time. He's done it before.
Oh He has? When was the last time a book was declared inspired and inserted into the Canon after the Canon had been closed?
 
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SeventyOne

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Oh He has? When was the last time a book was declared inspired and inserted into the Canon after the Canon had been closed?

That's not what I said, and that wouldn't even be the case. I said God has allowed people to go without scripture He inspired for a time.
 
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SPF

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That's not what I said, and that wouldn't even be the case. I said God has allowed people to go without scripture He inspired for a time.
But not since the Canon was closed, right?

Yes or no, do you believe that the book of Enoch as it is today is the authentic, and originally preserved copy and that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is on the same level as Scripture?
 
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SeventyOne

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But not since the Canon was closed, right?

Yes or no, do you believe that the book of Enoch as it is today is the authentic, and originally preserved copy and that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is on the same level as Scripture?

I would call Enoch 1 scripture, yes, just as Jesus did and quoted as holding prophecy from God in Jude.

It's funny that you are trying to trap me into some position where I look somehow heretical because I disagree with the decisions of some 1,700-year-old council. I suppose it's fine enough if people want to do that, but I'm fully capable of thinking for myself.
 
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JacksBratt

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That's easy enough... The Book of Enoch Debunked

Also, the very fact that the Book of Enoch is not in Scripture should be enough for you to recognize that it contains errors and is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Oh, for a second I thought that you yourself had read something in the book that contradicted something that was written in the scripture.

Yes, it's not accepted as canon... Even still, neither is any writing such as The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the writing of Herodutus, Aristotle, Plato, Josephus or Socrates.

It does not dismiss it from being very informative. It gives a window into that time..

I happen to believe that we have the Book of Enoch for a reason. Any book that was quoted and mentioned by the Word of God.. is worth reading.
 
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SPF

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Oh, for a second I thought that you yourself had read something in the book that contradicted something that was written in the scripture.
I have. And the things I’ve read are all in the link I provided which outline very clearly where the contradictions exist.

I happen to believe that we have the Book of Enoch for a reason. Any book that was quoted and mentioned by the Word of God.. is worth reading.
Problem is that the book we do have is most likely NOT the original, has been corrupted, and is wholly untrustworthy and reliable. It’s not inspired, it hasn’t been preserved by the Holy Spirit - only Scripture has been.
 
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JacksBratt

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I have. And the things I’ve read are all in the link I provided which outline very clearly where the contradictions exist.

Problem is that the book we do have is most likely NOT the original, has been corrupted, and is wholly untrustworthy and reliable. It’s not inspired, it hasn’t been preserved by the Holy Spirit - only Scripture has been.
None of your post is convincing or in any way a reason to avoid reading the Book of Enoch.

I see you as someone that just doesn't like it. Are you telling me that there are no other books on this planet, that are useful..for history and wisdom and logic.... other than the canon?
 
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SPF

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None of your post is convincing or in any way a reason to avoid reading the Book of Enoch.
Nor has anything I’ve said carried the intent to convince anyone not to read the book of Enoch.

I see you as someone that just doesn't like it. Are you telling me that there are no other books on this planet, that are useful..for history and wisdom and logic.... other than the canon?
My point has been that the book of Enoch is not Scripture. That’s it. It is not a book inspired by the Holy Spirit. The book therefore, no doubt, contains errors, contradicts the actual Word of God, is unreliable, and is almost assuredly NOT the actual book that is referenced by Scripture. Or if it is, it’s certainly corrupted to the point of being almost wholly unreliable.

My issue is that people on this forum treat the Book of Enoch as just as reliable as Scripture. It’s not. Not even remotely close.

Read it all you want. Just don’t think it’ll convince anyone intelligent that it’s contents are reliable.
 
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JacksBratt

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Nor has anything I’ve said carried the intent to convince anyone not to read the book of Enoch.

You're honestly not very intelligent.

My point has been that the book of Enoch is not Scripture. That’s it. It is not a book inspired by the Holy Spirit. The book therefore, no doubt, contains errors, contradicts the actual Word of God, is unreliable, and is almost assuredly NOT the actual book that is referenced by Scripture. Or if it is, it’s certainly corrupted to the point of being almost wholly unreliable.

My issue is that people on this forum treat the Book of Enoch as just as reliable as Scripture. It’s not. Not even remotely close.

Read it all you want. Just don’t think it’ll convince anyone intelligent that it’s contents are reliable.
"no Doubt" contains errors?
"most likely" not the original?

You sound like your not so sure....

Maybe you should take the time to look for yourself. Not post someone else's overview as a response to someone asking you for a contradiction of scripture.

Just because someone thinks differently than you... does not make them "unintelligent"...
 
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SPF

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Maybe you should take the time to look for yourself. Not post someone else's overview as a response to someone asking you for a contradiction of scripture.
I have. This is the second time you've attempted to ignore the information I've posted as somehow not credible because I didn't type it all out myself. Did you even look at it? It very clearly, and in an easy to understand way outlines a good number of contradictions between Scripture and the book.

And honestly, we should expect to see contradictions. There is a reason Enoch isn't in the Bible! It's not in the Bible because it's NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, it's NOT reliable, trustworthy, and without error.

Sure, read the book, but read it with a grain of sand, use your brain and recognize that it's NOT on the same level as Scripture and that its contents are NOT authoritative in any way what-so-ever.
 
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JacksBratt

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I have. This is the second time you've attempted to ignore the information I've posted as somehow not credible because I didn't type it all out myself. Did you even look at it? It very clearly, and in an easy to understand way outlines a good number of contradictions between Scripture and the book.

And honestly, we should expect to see contradictions. There is a reason Enoch isn't in the Bible! It's not in the Bible because it's NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, it's NOT reliable, trustworthy, and without error.

Sure, read the book, but read it with a grain of sand, use your brain and recognize that it's NOT on the same level as Scripture and that its contents are NOT authoritative in any way what-so-ever.
What I was looking for... since it's hard for you to understand someone as unintelligent as I....

IS... can you, yourself, give me an example, from the Book of Enoch.. that contradicts the scriptures in the canon?

It's pretty simple.

I have never, on this forum, been given leeway by other posters, when asked to present my opinion or evidence of my statements, to simply post the commentary, or essay, or any writing of someone else and simply state "there... now read it for yourself".
 
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SPF

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IS... can you, yourself, give me an example, from the Book of Enoch.. that contradicts the scriptures in the canon?

It's pretty simple.
Sure. The book of Enoch claims in chapter 6 that fallen angels made a deal on Mount Hermon, where they all gathered prior to the flood and named it. This contradicts with Scripture. See Deut. 3:8-9 to see the pre-name flood and then look at Judges 3:3 and I Chronicles 5:23 and Numbers 25:1-5 - The book of Enoch essentially les about the pre-flood angels naming Mount Herman. It was post-flood Baal worshippers that named it, not fallen angels.

Enoch 19:2 claims that women who married fallen angels and gave birth to giants were transformed into Sirens. Sirens, if you don't know, are half-bird, half-human creatures. Basically, Enoch promotes pagan mythology. You'll never find anything in Scripture to support this.

Passages like this actually help in dating the actual book of Enoch, as the author(s) got this part of the book from Green mythology.

Also, the book of Enoch actually claims that sin is from Azazel, NOT Adam. in Enoch 10:8, the author ascribes the entry of sin into the whole world as being taught by Azazel. This contradicts the Genesis narrative, and the words of Jesus about sin entering the world through Adam.

The Book of Enoch claims that archangels made humanity righteous, not Jesus. See Enoch 10:20,21 and 40:9-10. These passages directly contradict Scripture.

Then there are passages like Enoch 39:1 - "And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the high heaven, and their seed [Children] will become one with the children of men" There is absolutely no Scriptural support for this.

Enoch 47:4 is basically blasphemy. It claims that the blood of Christ was insufficient and that the Father wants more blood from righteous people.

Finally, one last one for you - Enoch 51:1-2 claims that God will go down to hell and choose righteous and holy people and bring them up to heaven. I'm sorry, what are righteous and holy people doing in hell in the first place? There is nothing in Scripture to support this. And it contradicts Scripture which does not teach that righteous and holy people will end up in hell.

Honestly, I shouldn't have even had to do this. Enoch is not Scripture, and anyone who spends 10 minutes researching it can see that for themselves. Anyone who also takes the time to look into the history of the book, the manuscripts, the dates we have for them, the vast contradictions contained in the manuscripts - it's easy to see that the Book of Enoch is in NO WAY even within 100 miles of actual Scripture in terms of manuscript reliability.

Bottom line. The Book of Enoch is NOT in Scripture because it's NOT reliable, it contradicts Scripture, it is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, and frankly, the ONLY people I've ever seen take this book seriously are conspiracy nuts.
 
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SeventyOne

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Sure. The book of Enoch claims in chapter 6 that fallen angels made a deal on Mount Hermon, where they all gathered prior to the flood and named it. This contradicts with Scripture. See Deut. 3:8-9 to see the pre-name flood and then look at Judges 3:3 and I Chronicles 5:23 and Numbers 25:1-5 - The book of Enoch essentially les about the pre-flood angels naming Mount Herman. It was post-flood Baal worshippers that named it, not fallen angels.

Enoch 19:2 claims that women who married fallen angels and gave birth to giants were transformed into Sirens. Sirens, if you don't know, are half-bird, half-human creatures. Basically, Enoch promotes pagan mythology. You'll never find anything in Scripture to support this.

Passages like this actually help in dating the actual book of Enoch, as the author(s) got this part of the book from Green mythology.

Also, the book of Enoch actually claims that sin is from Azazel, NOT Adam. in Enoch 10:8, the author ascribes the entry of sin into the whole world as being taught by Azazel. This contradicts the Genesis narrative, and the words of Jesus about sin entering the world through Adam.

The Book of Enoch claims that archangels made humanity righteous, not Jesus. See Enoch 10:20,21 and 40:9-10. These passages directly contradict Scripture.

Then there are passages like Enoch 39:1 - "And it shall come to pass in those days that elect and holy children will descend from the high heaven, and their seed [Children] will become one with the children of men" There is absolutely no Scriptural support for this.

Enoch 47:4 is basically blasphemy. It claims that the blood of Christ was insufficient and that the Father wants more blood from righteous people.

Finally, one last one for you - Enoch 51:1-2 claims that God will go down to hell and choose righteous and holy people and bring them up to heaven. I'm sorry, what are righteous and holy people doing in hell in the first place? There is nothing in Scripture to support this. And it contradicts Scripture which does not teach that righteous and holy people will end up in hell.

Honestly, I shouldn't have even had to do this. Enoch is not Scripture, and anyone who spends 10 minutes researching it can see that for themselves. Anyone who also takes the time to look into the history of the book, the manuscripts, the dates we have for them, the vast contradictions contained in the manuscripts - it's easy to see that the Book of Enoch is in NO WAY even within 100 miles of actual Scripture in terms of manuscript reliability.

Bottom line. The Book of Enoch is NOT in Scripture because it's NOT reliable, it contradicts Scripture, it is NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit, and frankly, the ONLY people I've ever seen take this book seriously are conspiracy nuts.

You may want to take those 10 minutes yourself and read all that in context. Because none of what you said is true. Did you actually look yourself, or were these just extracted from that site you linked earlier because I recognize a lot of these accusations from there.

While you're at it, also try to explain why Jesus called it scripture in Mark 12:24-25. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you aren't familiar enough with Enoch to judge it.

Here's a copy of it for you, since I'm guessing you don't have one: http://scriptural-truth.com/stuff/BookOfEnoch.pdf
 
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