Is this injustice?

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Hammster

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Bill,

I do not find that text difficult at all. The problem is that this text lays the responsiblity for God granting repentance upon the christian. This must be difficult for those who think God selects people for heaven before anyone did anything including the list in that scripture. It also lays the weight on how christians behave as to whether someone else is granted repentance. So this is not a solo act by God. That is clearly in the text and defies what reformed theology believes.

I am talking to two guys at once so if I get you mixed up I apologize.

In the end, God may grant repentance depending upon the behaviour of the christians around them, right? YOu agree with this?

I decided to read the passage in the direct Greek translation and realized this is speaking about believers repenting when corrected by other believers.
I’ll jump in. Bill may have a different take.

I think it can be applied to our dealings with both Christians and non-Christians. Either way, it’s a grace of God that He bestows. Also, it doesn’t say that it’s the only means in which He grants repentance.
 
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Hammster

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I actually quoted to you a verse without the usual markings to see if you believe the truth of it and you side stepped it. THis is how I see if an opponent really knows the BIble. Quote it without references or a "heads up, this is a bible verse so do not disagree" and see if they disagree before they knew they were not supposed to do so. YOu see, those who read and believe the whole Bible do not need to isolate particular scriptures away from others. When you look at the prima facia, you tend to forget the other verses and maybe defend doing so.

There are those who do this in other communication too. It is fairly common. Pick up on the bits that someone said or promised that you like and ignore the rest of what they also said. It is very common.
What exactly did you quote? And what’s the context? How do I know that you used it correctly?
 
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BBAS 64

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You know Bill, we cannot take every "you" Jesus said and assume it means us. There are theologians who do not know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. God hides information from the wise and learned at times and reveals these matters to others. It sometimes behooves us to find out what those others do that earns them understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. It is not merely extensive bible knowledge, I can assure you.


Good Day, Dorothy

Umm "you" is a pronoun, and in this con text the You, them both refer to the disciples.

And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

I will stick with the God Breathed out infallible word. It alone makes me complete, and equipped.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

In Him,

Bill
 
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bling

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That’s fine. But who grants it? It says in the verse that it’s granted.
2 Tim.2 is very applicable to what we are trying to do on this thread or at least what we should be trying to do.

In 2 Tim. 2: 25 we have “…God will grant them repentance…”, but in the context of “…Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance…”, with this whole section on: “How to lead those who have drown the wrong conclusion to the truth”. Paul is teaching spiritual leaders in the church, including Timothy, how to handle sincere misled stubborn false teachers gently to the truth.

It is said: “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”, so if we do everything right that doesn’t mean he/she will automatically repent. I have lived long enough to have personal examples, but it goes like this: I gently warn a person of the dangers of their behavior, hoping and pridefully expecting them to immediately change (repent), but they do not, so I leave frustrated. Later I see the person and huge changes have taken place they have become a spiritual giant in the kingdom, but it was more do to their own continues wrong choices that brought them to their senses and they considered other alternatives.

God has set in place teachers, situations, aging, and consequences that cause all mature willing individuals to come to their senses and choose to accept God’s help, but not all will accept His help. So, if any person repents it is because of God, but do not blame God if some do not repent, because God provided the same opportunity for them.

Back to 2 Tim. 2:25

The “God will grant them repentance” in the KJV you have “If God peradventure will give them repentance”, not that the KJV translation is better but follows more the Greek.

I cannot explain it better than Albert Barnes so here are his notes on this section of verse 25:

If God peradventure will give them repentance, ... - Give them such a view of the error which they have embraced, and such regret for having embraced it, that they shall be willing to admit the truth. After all our care in teaching others the truth, our only dependence is on God for its success. We cannot be absolutely certain that they will see their error; we cannot rely certainly on any power which argument will have; we can only hope that God may show them their error, and enable them to see and embrace the truth; compare Acts 11:18. The word rendered "peradventure," here - ́ mēpote - means, usually, "not even, never;" and then, "that never, lest ever" - the same as "lest perhaps." It is translated "lest at any time," Matthew 4:6; Matthew 5:25; Matthew 13:15; Mark 4:12; Luke 21:34; "lest," Matt, Luke 7:6; Luke 13:29; Luke 15:32; "et al.: lest haply," Luke 14:12; Acts 5:39. It does not imply that there was any CHance about what is said, but rather that there was uncertainty in the mind of the speaker, and that there was need of caution LesT something should occur; or, that anything was done, or should be done, to prevent something from happening.

It is not used elsewhere in the New Testament in the sense which our translators, and all the critics, so far as I have examined, give to it here - as implying A hope that God would give them repentance, etc. But I may be permitted to suggest another interpretation, which will accord with the uniform meaning of the word in the New Testament, and which will refer the matter to those who had embraced the error, and not to God. It is this: "In meekness instructing ' those that oppose themselves' ( ̓́ antidiatithemenous ) ' lest' - ́ mēpote - God should give them repentance, and they should recover themselves out of the snare of the devil," etc. That is, they put themselves in this posture of opposition so that they shall not be brought to repentance, and recover themselves. They do it with a precautionary view that they may not be thus brought to repentance, and be recovered to God. They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.
 
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BBAS 64

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2 Tim.2 is very applicable to what we are trying to do on this thread or at least what we should be trying to do.

In 2 Tim. 2: 25 we have “…God will grant them repentance…”, but in the context of “…Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance…”, with this whole section on: “How to lead those who have drown the wrong conclusion to the truth”. Paul is teaching spiritual leaders in the church, including Timothy, how to handle sincere misled stubborn false teachers gently to the truth.

It is said: “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”, so if we do everything right that doesn’t mean he/she will automatically repent. I have lived long enough to have personal examples, but it goes like this: I gently warn a person of the dangers of their behavior, hoping and pridefully expecting them to immediately change (repent), but they do not, so I leave frustrated. Later I see the person and huge changes have taken place they have become a spiritual giant in the kingdom, but it was more do to their own continues wrong choices that brought them to their senses and they considered other alternatives.

God has set in place teachers, situations, aging, and consequences that cause all mature willing individuals to come to their senses and choose to accept God’s help, but not all will accept His help. So, if any person repents it is because of God, but do not blame God if some do not repent, because God provided the same opportunity for them.

Back to 2 Tim. 2:25

The “God will grant them repentance” in the KJV you have “If God peradventure will give them repentance”, not that the KJV translation is better but follows more the Greek.

I cannot explain it better than Albert Barnes so here are his notes on this section of verse 25:

If God peradventure will give them repentance, ... - Give them such a view of the error which they have embraced, and such regret for having embraced it, that they shall be willing to admit the truth. After all our care in teaching others the truth, our only dependence is on God for its success. We cannot be absolutely certain that they will see their error; we cannot rely certainly on any power which argument will have; we can only hope that God may show them their error, and enable them to see and embrace the truth; compare Acts 11:18. The word rendered "peradventure," here - ́ mēpote - means, usually, "not even, never;" and then, "that never, lest ever" - the same as "lest perhaps." It is translated "lest at any time," Matthew 4:6; Matthew 5:25; Matthew 13:15; Mark 4:12; Luke 21:34; "lest," Matt, Luke 7:6; Luke 13:29; Luke 15:32; "et al.: lest haply," Luke 14:12; Acts 5:39. It does not imply that there was any CHance about what is said, but rather that there was uncertainty in the mind of the speaker, and that there was need of caution LesT something should occur; or, that anything was done, or should be done, to prevent something from happening.

It is not used elsewhere in the New Testament in the sense which our translators, and all the critics, so far as I have examined, give to it here - as implying A hope that God would give them repentance, etc. But I may be permitted to suggest another interpretation, which will accord with the uniform meaning of the word in the New Testament, and which will refer the matter to those who had embraced the error, and not to God. It is this: "In meekness instructing ' those that oppose themselves' ( ̓́ antidiatithemenous ) ' lest' - ́ mēpote - God should give them repentance, and they should recover themselves out of the snare of the devil," etc. That is, they put themselves in this posture of opposition so that they shall not be brought to repentance, and recover themselves. They do it with a precautionary view that they may not be thus brought to repentance, and be recovered to God. They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.

Good Day, Bling

I agree with Barnes on this point...

We can not hope in our arguments only God can give them sight, we depend on God for that success.

We hope that God shows them, and then enables see and embrace the truth.

But If God does not show, they are unable.

John Piper looks at the text ( book) 2 parts...


2 Timothy 2:24–26, Part 2: God’s Agents of Repentance

In Him,

Bill
 
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bling

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Good Day, Bling

I agree with Barnes on this point...

We can not hope in our arguments only God can give them sight, we depend on God for that success.

We hope that God shows them, and then enables see and embrace the truth.

But If God does not show, they are unable.

John Piper looks at the text ( book) 2 parts...


2 Timothy 2:24–26, Part 2: God’s Agents of Repentance

In Him,

Bill
Most translations of 2 Tim. 2:26 have “may”, NKJV “and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”

Barnes would say for: And that they may recover themselves - Margin, "awake." The word which is rendered "recover" in the text, and "awake" in the margin - ̓́ ananēpsōsin - occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means, to become sober again, as from inebriation; to awake from a deep sleep, and then, to come to a right mind, as one does who is aroused from a state of inebriety, or from sleep. The representation in this part of the verse implies that, while under the influence of error, they were like a man intoxicated, or like one in deep slumber. From this state they were to be roused as one is from sleep, or as a man is recovered from the stupor and dullness of intoxication.



You say you “agree with Barnes” but what Barnes is pointing out is the “granting by God” does not mean they automatically repent.

Barnes conclusion is: “They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.”
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Good Day, Dorothy

Umm "you" is a pronoun, and in this con text the You, them both refer to the disciples.

Bill,

Please give me some educational credit. I know you, he, she are pronouns. That has absolutely no bearing on the communication. I know what verbs, prepositions, direct and indirect objects are. But people who don’t know those grammar terms still know when some says “you” to them, who is being addressed. Leave out the grammar terms unless they add to the discussion please.
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
And? I can assure you 100% that not everyone who reads that verse is given those same understanding. Again, the “you” doesn’t always mean everyone who reads it.
I will stick with the God Breathed out infallible word. It alone makes me complete, and equipped.
. Just by reading it? If not, by what method are you complete, equipped, etc?
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
How does this become real in your life?
 
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...“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” ...
Counted or imputed are the same:...

Sorry, I understood imputed means that something is placed into something. In the case of Abraham, he chose to be loyal to God, and because he did so, it was seen as act of righteousness and that is why Abraham was counted righteous. Abraham did something that showed he is righteous and has right understanding.
 
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1213

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Counted and imputed are the same thing.

Yes, my mistake, sorry, I thought that it was meant that Abrahams righteousness was something that was not of him. But, if imputed means same as that he was counted righteous, then it is ok. What Abraham did, showed that he is righteous and that is why he was counted righteous.
 
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BBAS 64

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Most translations of 2 Tim. 2:26 have “may”, NKJV “and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”

Barnes would say for: And that they may recover themselves - Margin, "awake." The word which is rendered "recover" in the text, and "awake" in the margin - ̓́ ananēpsōsin - occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means, to become sober again, as from inebriation; to awake from a deep sleep, and then, to come to a right mind, as one does who is aroused from a state of inebriety, or from sleep. The representation in this part of the verse implies that, while under the influence of error, they were like a man intoxicated, or like one in deep slumber. From this state they were to be roused as one is from sleep, or as a man is recovered from the stupor and dullness of intoxication.



You say you “agree with Barnes” but what Barnes is pointing out is the “granting by God” does not mean they automatically repent.

Barnes conclusion is: “They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.”


Good Day, Bling

Barnes presupposes something here that I disagree with..

God grant repentance for a purpose, and that purpose can not be thwarted... Barnes is just mistaken in His presumption.

There are 3 things that happen... If God Grants

They go from ignorance to knowledge of the truth.
They come to their senses.
They move from Slavery to freedom.

Those are objective reality of the results from the granting of God. To assume "they" continue to believe a lie, after being brought to the truth by God Himself just underestimates the of intention and power of God.

In Him,.

Bill
 
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Hammster

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Sorry, I understood imputed means that something is placed into something. In the case of Abraham, he chose to be loyal to God, and because he did so, it was seen as act of righteousness and that is why Abraham was counted righteous. Abraham did something that showed he is righteous and has right understanding.
That’s not what the verse says. Abraham believed God and God considered him righteous. It’s not that Abraham did something righteous and God then said he was.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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His faithfulness.
Those are not conditions. ANd I am afraid his faithfulness is not an assest to your position as like Jesus said in the parables, the faithful master gave to each man according to how he carried out his master's business. For the man who trusted the Master was doing everything…..well… let's say it did not turn out well.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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That’s not what the verse says. Abraham believed God and God considered him righteous. It’s not that Abraham did something righteous and God then said he was.
Was Abraham relieved of any other actions the rest of his life as far as God was concerned.

For those following this and undecided, Paul said the relationship between us and Christ is like a marriage. He did not say like a wedding. He said a marriage. When a Woman marries a man and has a legal document that says they are married, is the document all that Needs to be in place for there to be a marriage? Is she then relieved of all other obligations in the marriage because she frames that marriage License and reads it very day to tell herself she finally got a husand?

I already know Hammster that you do not see it that way at all and hold that legal promise that you are going to Heaven no matter how you behave so that was not for you.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I'm game...tell me, please.

This is of great interest to me and any input would be helpful.
I did. Please feel free to apply my measure to me at any point where you feel I am not living up to what I lay on others. Looking Forward to your Response.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Good Day, Bling

Barnes presupposes something here that I disagree with..

God grant repentance for a purpose, and that purpose can not be thwarted... Barnes is just mistaken in His presumption.

There are 3 things that happen... If God Grants

They go from ignorance to knowledge of the truth.
They come to their senses.
They move from Slavery to freedom.

Those are objective reality of the results from the granting of God. To assume "they" continue to believe a lie, after being brought to the truth by God Himself just underestimates the of intention and power of God.

In Him,.

Bill
God said that he wants that all men repent and be saved. It is said of him that he had so much love for the world that He gave his only begotten son for them. What happened to the power of God if he is not able to make his desire and that of the church become reality?

Bill, God is not a tyrant who forces men to believe, go from ignorance to the truth, come to their sense, etc. If you would want to come to understand the ways of God, you will have to give up some of your theology that assigns him Tasks that only a tyrant would do. I know it feels better to think God is a tyrant enacting his will on men but this is just not who he is. ANyone who believes this will not be shown the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. One must believe God is good and this description you give is not of a good being.
 
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Hammster

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Those are not conditions. ANd I am afraid his faithfulness is not an assest to your position as like Jesus said in the parables, the faithful master gave to each man according to how he carried out his master's business. For the man who trusted the Master was doing everything…..well… let's say it did not turn out well.
I bring nothing to the table. I trust in Him completely. He’s my Father and I trust He’ll care for me.

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling.
 
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