Saved by......?

Aussie Pete · Apr 8, 2020

I don't know how many sermons I've heard in the last 49 years. I've read many books and studied a fair amount myself. Some years ago I read something that amazed me. It's been in the Book for 2,000 years and I'd read it many times. I'd never heard it preached.

Christians will agree that we are saved by grace. Not all agree that it is by grace alone. Some have grace plus works, grace plus law or grace plus works plus law. It also helps to know what grace is!

I'd like to offer another way of looking at this subject. First, I'll state what I mean by salvation. What it does not mean is a ticket to heaven when you die. "Salvation" is an initial experience of being born again, then a continual process of being delivered from the habits and memories of the old life we received from Adam.

In Romans 5:10 we read, "For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!"

Excuse me Paul, I thought we were saved by grace? And what would Paul say? I suggest he would say that that "grace" and the "Life of Christ" are one and the same. If we replace the word "saved" with "delivered", it helps with our understanding.

Lord Jesus came that we might have abundant life. Some Christians think that the Christian life is a grim slog, desperately trying to obey God and desperately trying to keep their hands clean. Lord Jesus also said that He is the Life. If we can grasp that the Christian life is no longer dependent on us, all the pressure comes off us. God expects nothing from us except sin and failure. He has given us Christ to be all that we should be but cannot be.

Outward obedience to a set of rules is not salvation. All it does is condemn us utterly when we fail - which we will. If we will allow the Lord Jesus to live instead of us, it is then up to Him to perform. He is well able to do so.

Because we are still attacked by Satan and we still are prone to follow natural inclinations, it is not instant perfection. However, it is a life of bliss compared to carrying the burden of the impossible demands of the law by our own efforts. Lord Jesus lives in us to be our peace, joy, love, wisdom, self control, humility, obedience to God's leading and everything else that we should be but cannot be.

This is what Paul means by "It's no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me". I read that countless times without knowing what it meant. Now I know. I'd encourage all who mean business with God to discover this great truth for themselves.

timewerx · Apr 8, 2020

Good study

The only way we can truly understand Paul's teachings is to first know and study carefully who Paul is and what are his intentions.

Aussie Pete said:
This is what Paul means by "It's no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me". I read that countless times without knowing what it meant. Now I know. I'd encourage all who mean business with God to discover this great truth for themselves.

Good find. The other disciples confims it:

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Of course Jesus said it first:

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So why did Paul seemed to have utterly simplified things at times? It depends on his audiences (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). In Romans, for example, Paul sometimes met with Gentiles that where being "Judaized" by Christian Jews or even Christian Jews who still prefer to stick with old Mosaic laws.

These Christian Gentiles and Christian Jews are being led in the wrong path, back to the old ways and Paul is simply trying to fix the situation.

Thus, many of Paul's teachings in the Book of Romans doesn't apply us today :doh:

Unless you actually stick to the Torah (Judaist).

This is probably the #1 reason of the great and bad divisions in Christianity today.

crossnote · Apr 8, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I don't know how many sermons I've heard in the last 49 years. I've read many books and studied a fair amount myself. Some years ago I read something that amazed me. It's been in the Book for 2,000 years and I'd read it many times. I'd never heard it preached.

Christians will agree that we are saved by grace. Not all agree that it is by grace alone. Some have grace plus works, grace plus law or grace plus works plus law. It also helps to know what grace is!

I'd like to offer another way of looking at this subject. First, I'll state what I mean by salvation. What it does not mean is a ticket to heaven when you die. "Salvation" is an initial experience of being born again, then a continual process of being delivered from the habits and memories of the old life we received from Adam.

In Romans 5:10 we read, "For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!"

Excuse me Paul, I thought we were saved by grace? And what would Paul say? I suggest he would say that that "grace" and the "Life of Christ" are one and the same. If we replace the word "saved" with "delivered", it helps with our understanding.

Lord Jesus came that we might have abundant life. Some Christians think that the Christian life is a grim slog, desperately trying to obey God and desperately trying to keep their hands clean. Lord Jesus also said that He is the Life. If we can grasp that the Christian life is no longer dependent on us, all the pressure comes off us. God expects nothing from us except sin and failure. He has given us Christ to be all that we should be but cannot be.

Outward obedience to a set of rules is not salvation. All it does is condemn us utterly when we fail - which we will. If we will allow the Lord Jesus to live instead of us, it is then up to Him to perform. He is well able to do so.

Because we are still attacked by Satan and we still are prone to follow natural inclinations, it is not instant perfection. However, it is a life of bliss compared to carrying the burden of the impossible demands of the law by our own efforts. Lord Jesus lives in us to be our peace, joy, love, wisdom, self control, humility, obedience to God's leading and everything else that we should be but cannot be.

This is what Paul means by "It's no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me". I read that countless times without knowing what it meant. Now I know. I'd encourage all who mean business with God to discover this great truth for themselves.

Rom 5:10 and Gal 2:20 two of my favs.

crossnote · Apr 8, 2020

timewerx said:
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Yes we ought, seeing our new nature would prompt us to do so.

Jeshu · Apr 9, 2020

timewerx said:
Good study

The only way we can truly understand Paul's teachings is to first know and study carefully who Paul is and what are his intentions.

Good find. The other disciples confims it:

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Of course Jesus said it first:

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

So why did Paul seemed to have utterly simplified things at times? It depends on his audiences (1 Corinthians 9:19-23). In Romans, for example, Paul sometimes met with Gentiles that where being "Judaized" by Christian Jews or even Christian Jews who still prefer to stick with old Mosaic laws.

These Christian Gentiles and Christian Jews are being led in the wrong path, back to the old ways and Paul is simply trying to fix the situation.

Thus, many of Paul's teachings in the Book of Romans doesn't apply us todayUnless you actually stick to the Torah (Judaist).

This is probably the #1 reason of the great and bad divisions in Christianity today.

Be that as it may Christ indwelling causes us to become humbly loving, thankful, joyful, caring and free people. People who are stable and self controlled, and live out their talents and gifts and leave wilful sin behind in favour of following the way of love and truth. These three must always be visible in a believer life, faith love and hope for these three always remain active in a child of God.

On the fruit you recognise the tree.

Soyeong · Apr 9, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I don't know how many sermons I've heard in the last 49 years. I've read many books and studied a fair amount myself. Some years ago I read something that amazed me. It's been in the Book for 2,000 years and I'd read it many times. I'd never heard it preached.

Christians will agree that we are saved by grace. Not all agree that it is by grace alone. Some have grace plus works, grace plus law or grace plus works plus law. It also helps to know what grace is!

I'd like to offer another way of looking at this subject. First, I'll state what I mean by salvation. What it does not mean is a ticket to heaven when you die. "Salvation" is an initial experience of being born again, then a continual process of being delivered from the habits and memories of the old life we received from Adam.

In Romans 5:10 we read, "For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!"

Excuse me Paul, I thought we were saved by grace? And what would Paul say? I suggest he would say that that "grace" and the "Life of Christ" are one and the same. If we replace the word "saved" with "delivered", it helps with our understanding.

Lord Jesus came that we might have abundant life. Some Christians think that the Christian life is a grim slog, desperately trying to obey God and desperately trying to keep their hands clean. Lord Jesus also said that He is the Life. If we can grasp that the Christian life is no longer dependent on us, all the pressure comes off us. God expects nothing from us except sin and failure. He has given us Christ to be all that we should be but cannot be.

Outward obedience to a set of rules is not salvation. All it does is condemn us utterly when we fail - which we will. If we will allow the Lord Jesus to live instead of us, it is then up to Him to perform. He is well able to do so.

Because we are still attacked by Satan and we still are prone to follow natural inclinations, it is not instant perfection. However, it is a life of bliss compared to carrying the burden of the impossible demands of the law by our own efforts. Lord Jesus lives in us to be our peace, joy, love, wisdom, self control, humility, obedience to God's leading and everything else that we should be but cannot be.

This is what Paul means by "It's no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me". I read that countless times without knowing what it meant. Now I know. I'd encourage all who mean business with God to discover this great truth for themselves.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and god, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in this training is not doing anything to earn it, but rather it is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is disobedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what being saved from living in disobedience to God's law looks like.

Jesus lived a life in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are saved through his life and what abundant life looks like. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so obedience to it has always been about being dependent on God to guide us in how we should live, not about depending on our own efforts.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God expects nothing but sin and failure. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice and encourages us to choose life. God can be trusted to set us up for success, not failure. The primary purpose of giving someone instructions is to teach them how to do something, not to condemn them for not following those instructions. Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children in order to condemn them, but rather they given them instructions that are for their own good in order to guide them in how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Christ living in us is about fulling submitting to God's will as made know though His law in accordance with how Christ lived (Psalms 40:8).

Aussie Pete · Apr 9, 2020

Soyeong said:
In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and god, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God teaching us to obey His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in this training is not doing anything to earn it, but rather it is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is disobedience to God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what being saved from living in disobedience to God's law looks like.

Jesus lived a life in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how we are saved through his life and what abundant life looks like. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so obedience to it has always been about being dependent on God to guide us in how we should live, not about depending on our own efforts.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God expects nothing but sin and failure. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice and encourages us to choose life. God can be trusted to set us up for success, not failure. The primary purpose of giving someone instructions is to teach them how to do something, not to condemn them for not following those instructions. Not even earthly fathers give instructions to their children in order to condemn them, but rather they given them instructions that are for their own good in order to guide them in how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Christ living in us is about fulling submitting to God's will as made know though His law (Psalms 40:8).

You are living under the old covenant. I'm glad that you do not need Jesus. I do.

And obeying the commandments is NOT enough - not if you look at how Lord Jesus responded to the rich young ruler. He was law observing, yet Lord Jesus said to him, "One thing you lack". Where in the 10 commandments does it say sell all you have and follow Jesus?

Every human being has "one thing" that they cling to. And that is independent self will. It's what got Adam into trouble in the first place. It takes different forms for different people.

Knowing the Law does not prevent people from breaking it. The much quoted and writer of psalm 119 was a murdering adulterer. I guess he did not love God's law enough or hide it deeply enough in his heart. Or something.

Soyeong · Apr 9, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
You are living under the old covenant. I'm glad that you do not need Jesus. I do.

And obeying the commandments is NOT enough - not if you look at how Lord Jesus responded to the rich young ruler. He was law observing, yet Lord Jesus said to him, "One thing you lack". Where in the 10 commandments does it say sell all you have and follow Jesus?

Every human being has "one thing" that they cling to. And that is independent self will. It's what got Adam into trouble in the first place. It takes different forms for different people.

Knowing the Law does not prevent people from breaking it. The much quoted and writer of psalm 119 was a murdering adulterer. I guess he did not love God's law enough or hide it deeply enough in his heart. Or something.

I said nothing about living under the Mosaic Covenant or about not needing Jesus. In the New Covenant, Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do things that God's laws was given to instruct. Furthermore, verse 14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe that we need Jesus and understand what he accomplished through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.

In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they search Scripture because they think that in them they have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they may have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so they were right to search for it in the Scripture, but they needed to recognize that everything in Scripture bears witness of Jesus and come to him for life. In John 5:46-47, Jesus said that if they believed Moses, then they would believe him because Moses wrote about him, but if they don't believe what Moses wrote, then how can they believe his words? So we can't believe Jesus without also believing Moses. In John 5:24, Jesus said that those who hear his words and believe him who sent him has eternal life, so he equated that with obeying the commandments.

God straightforwardly has made His will known though His law (Psalms 40:8), so obeying God's law is about submitting to His will, not about clinging to our will.

Indeed, the law does not prevent us from breaking it, and if we do break it, then we need to repent and to return to obedience by faith (Psalms 51).

Goodhuman · Apr 9, 2020

Of course salvation is ticket to heaven. When you become born again you become new creature (heavenly creature): 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And we don't need to support protestant statement: forget all your past, it is all evil... it is extremely wrong and evil this statement. Heavenly creatures to go heaven, they don't have other home after death! About saved by works or faith I would say even demons have faith, but are not saved. I believe you can be saved in all religions. I don't believe God want us to do sins, because this way we will anger him and never will be saved! Bible is telling that born again never sin. God is not God of those who fail, God is God of those who win: Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:. To obey God, and keeps hands clean is the best! Of course, christian life depend on us. We can't allow Jesus to life instead of us, this is blashpemy! We will never fail, if we trust God! Jesus did good for his life, we must do for our life. Christians are not attacked by satan, because he can't take their souls. God's law never was removed. We can be everything we want to be. Born again is the end, because it is salvation: 1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Mountainmanbob · Apr 9, 2020

I'm a simple guy that likes to keep it simple.

I had a friend who was dieing a few years back and he seemed to find comfort with this.

We are saved through
Grace Alone
Faith Alone
Christ Alone

Leaves me or (us) out of the picture.
Probably best because,
man and his prideful thinking
constantly just messes things up.

I never think that I did anything.
God through Jesus did it all.
Keeps me humble.

M-Bob

Aussie Pete · Apr 9, 2020

Goodhuman said:
Of course salvation is ticket to heaven. When you become born again you become new creature (heavenly creature): 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And we don't need to support protestant statement: forget all your past, it is all evil... it is extremely wrong and evil this statement. Heavenly creatures to go heaven, they don't have other home after death! About saved by works or faith I would say even demons have faith, but are not saved. I believe you can be saved in all religions. I don't believe God want us to do sins, because this way we will anger him and never will be saved! Bible is telling that born again never sin. God is not God of those who fail, God is God of those who win: Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:. To obey God, and keeps hands clean is the best! Of course, christian life depend on us. We can allow Jesus to life instead of us, this is blashpemy! We will never fail, if we trust God! Jesus did good for his life, we must do for our life. Christians are not attacked by satan, because he can't take their souls. God's law never was removed. We can be everything we want to be. Born again is the end, because it is salvation: 1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I have to contradict you. Being born again is instantaneous the moment that we accept Christ as Saviour and Lord. God includes the believer in the death of Christ and raises in them in Christ to be new creations. That is what it means to be born again. It's the start of the Christian life, not the end. The part of us that is born again is the spirit. It is the soul that is delivered progressively.

I suggest that you be careful who you accuse of blasphemy. I can justify every word I've said from God's word. You are welcome to disagree with me. You have that right, of course. Just remember that Satan is the accuser of the brethren.

It is the new, born again spirit that does not sin. The soul-life is at enmity with the Spirit. When we follow the dictates of the soul-life, we sin.

If Satan cannot attack Christians, why are we warned that he is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour? What is it that we wrestle against? It's not flesh and blood. Why do we need armour if Satan does not attack us? I suggest that you rethink this issue. Satan is indeed defeated, but that does not mean he will give up trying.

Goodhuman · Apr 9, 2020

I am not afraid of the devil. The devil can take souls of them who alone give them to him.

Mountainmanbob · Apr 9, 2020

Goodhuman said:
I am not afraid of the devil. The devil can take souls of them who alone give them to him.

That's true --

Doing their sinning acting like a clown
chosing the wide road
that goes on down.
M-Bob

John Helpher · Apr 9, 2020

The teachings of Jesus are an expression of the values and principles of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are a demonstration of how to love God and love our neighbor. Obedience to his teachings is not a payment that we make to earn salvation, but rather a demonstration that we do want to be a part of God's kingdom. If we do not at least try to obey Jesus, then we communicate a lack of interest in the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, and why would God want to include people in his Kingdom who do not want to live by its values?

Aussie Pete · Apr 9, 2020

John Helpher said:
The teachings of Jesus are an expression of the values and principles of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are a demonstration of how to love God and love our neighbor. Obedience to his teachings is not a payment that we make to earn salvation, but rather a demonstration that we do want to be a part of God's kingdom. If we do not at least try to obey Jesus, then we communicate a lack of interest in the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, and why would God want to include people in his Kingdom who do not want to live by its values?

You miss the point. I'm going to do another post to clarify what I mean.

John Helpher · Apr 9, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
You miss the point. I'm going to do another post to clarify what I mean.

I talked about the importance of obeying Jesus. What point is that missing?

Aussie Pete · Apr 10, 2020

John Helpher said:
I talked about the importance of obeying Jesus. What point is that missing?

The bit you overlook is that it is not a life of trying. Do birds try to fly? No. It's inbuilt. Those who are born again have the life of Christ inbuilt. Either you live according to the leading of Christ in you or you do not. Trying does not enter into it.

John Helpher · Apr 10, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
The bit you overlook is that it is not a life of trying.

Jesus said we should obey him. You're saying it's not a "life of trying". To me, it looks like you're implying that we don't even need to try to obey Jesus. You are essentially, directly contradicting Jesus' commands (not advice or general comments, but commands) that we obey him. Why would you do that? Why would you imply that we don't need to at least try to obey Jesus? Is there something in his teachings which bothers you?

Francis Drake · Apr 10, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
I'd like to offer another way of looking at this subject. First, I'll state what I mean by salvation. What it does not mean is a ticket to heaven when you die. "Salvation" is an initial experience of being born again, then a continual process of being delivered from the habits and memories of the old life we received from Adam.

I agree with everything you say here, and have argued your case countless times on this forum.
However I would use different words (which I note you do later on).

I always say that being "Born again" is the initial experience that instantly makes us sons of God.
In contrast, as scripture makes abundantly clear, Salvation is a lifelong process of deliverance.

I have yet to find anywhere in the OT, the word "Salvation" being a reference to "Heaven when you're dead".
In complete contrast "Salvation" for Israel always referred to deliverance from Philistine, famine and plague.
Given that Jesus is the author of both OT and NT, do we seriously think he changed the meaning of his words from one to the other?

Because evangelists have stolen the meaning of that word, despite being born again, most Christians never experience the fullness of God's salvation in their life. An examination of their lives will reveal little difference between them and most non Christians.

Aussie Pete · Apr 10, 2020

John Helpher said:
Jesus said we should obey him. You're saying it's not a "life of trying". To me, it looks like you're implying that we don't even need to try to obey Jesus. You are essentially, directly contradicting Jesus' commands (not advice or general comments, but commands) that we obey him. Why would you do that? Why would you imply that we don't need to at least try to obey Jesus? Is there something in his teachings which bothers you?

It's quite simple."Trying" is not the answer. Can you imagine telling a bird that it has to try to fly? What would it reply? It would tell you that it flies because it is natural for it to fly.

Christians should be "naturally spiritual".

Francis Drake said:
I agree with everything you say here, and have argued your case countless times on this forum.
However I would use different words (which I note you do later on).

I always say that being "Born again" is the initial experience that instantly makes us sons of God.
In contrast, as scripture makes abundantly clear, Salvation is a lifelong process of deliverance.

I have yet to find anywhere in the OT, the word "Salvation" being a reference to "Heaven when you're dead".
In complete contrast "Salvation" for Israel always referred to deliverance from Philistine, famine and plague.
Given that Jesus is the author of both OT and NT, do we seriously think he changed the meaning of his words from one to the other?

Because evangelists have stolen the meaning of that word, despite being born again, most Christians never experience the fullness of God's salvation in their life. An examination of their lives will reveal little difference between them and most non Christians.

Yes, you get it. I'd been told, I'd studied, memorised Bible verses and yet still struggled. It was only when I realised that Lord Jesus had done everything for me 2,000 years ago that the struggle ceased. There really is nothing left for us to do except thank Him for the "great deliverance" that we celebrate every day - not just Easter.

One question is why is it so hard to get agreement when the word so clear? I have come to the conclusion that there is deep seated, secret hope that somehow we can get a little glory for ourselves. There is a deep desire in the self that it might survive. God says, No way!" When we see how useless self is, we are pleased to be rid of it! If only all believers could see this great truth.

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