Face book friend posted this. So, how's he wrong?

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hedrick

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The question is not whether "exomolegeo" is positive or not. The usual UR argument claims that "exomolegeo' means "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back)."
By positive I mean not as a defeated enemy but as someone who considers Christ Lord. Confessing Christ as Lord has a pretty clear NT meaning.

"wholly out from" seems pretty odd. The word has a range of meanings, but confessing Christ as Lord is a profession of faith.
 
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By positive I mean not as a defeated enemy but as someone who considers Christ Lord. Confessing Christ as Lord has a pretty clear NT meaning.
"wholly out from" seems pretty odd. The word has a range of meanings, but confessing Christ as Lord is a profession of faith
.
When and where does the change from enemies who hate God and Jesus to willing professions of faith?
Six verses say that Christ's enemies will be made His footstool; Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12;36, Luke 20:42, Acts of the apostles 2:35, and Hebrews 10:13. I don't know of any verses which says they later become loving followers.
I'm pretty sure they will be on their knees when that happens.And I am pretty sure they will be acknowledging Jesus as Lord. See Matthew 7:22-23.
 
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hedrick

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When and where does the change from enemies who hate God and Jesus to willing professions of faith?
Six verses say that Christ's enemies will be made His footstool; Psalms 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12;36, Luke 20:42, Acts of the apostles 2:35, and Hebrews 10:13. I don't know of any verses which says they later become loving followers.
I'm pretty sure they will be on their knees when that happens.And I am pretty sure they will be acknowledging Jesus as Lord. See Matthew 7:22-23.
In 1 Cor 15:20 ff, after death is defeated. Paul sees sin and death as powers that oppress us. After they are defeated, everyone becomes subject to Christ as Christ is subject to God.

That's also the meaning of Philip 2.

The passages you cite could just as well be equivalent to 1 Cor 15:24-25, i.e. referring to Jesus' supernatural enemies, the rulers, powers and authorities.
 
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In 1 Cor 15:20 ff, after death is defeated. Paul sees sin and death as powers that oppress us. After they are defeated, everyone becomes subject to Christ as Christ is subject to God.
That's also the meaning of Philip 2.
The passages you cite could just as well be equivalent to 1 Cor 15:24-25, i.e. referring to Jesus' supernatural enemies, the rulers, powers and authorities.
"Could be?" Aren't rulers, powers and authorities people?
When do these guys become subject to Christ.

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I don't see any chance for salvation after judgment vs. 22 and "Depart from me" vs. 23.
 
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hedrick

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"Could be?" Aren't rulers, powers and authorities people?
Only secondarily. Paul sees the enemies as supernatural.

The NIGCT commentary by Thiselton says "Paul’s use of πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν reflects what originally denotes the superhuman agencies of apocalyptic, including demonic powers, but may in Paul indicate every structural power against which the individual qua individual is helpless and held in bondage as victim."

"Chrysostom understood such rule to be simply “that of devils,” citing Eph 6:12. Origen identifies the rulers of 1 Cor 2:6 as “spiritual powers,” while Cyril of Alexandria identifies rule in 15:24 with ἀρχῆς ἁπάσης τῶν ἀκαθάρτων πνευμάτων. On the other hand, Calvin explains these as “the legitimate powers which have been ordained by God,” and A. Wesley Carr (as we noted in the context of 2:6) advocates an allusion to earthly rulers only. However, Cullmann, Caird, and many others insist that the two views are not mutually exclusive. Conzelmann accepts that apocalyptic implies demonic powers, but insists that Paul has “demythologized” these. At all events, the apocalyptic background remains significant as indicating forces from whose power individual human persons cannot extricate themselves through mere determination of will or ethical reform."

I think the safest understanding is that the enemies are supernatural (note that death is considered one of the enemies) but they have human representatives, or perhaps tools.

I believe Jesus also sees his real enemy as supernatural. This is a perspective we've at least partly lost, seeing him as a moral teacher, or someone focused on saving individuals. Like Thiselton, I would tend to see evil supernatural forces as symbolizing "forces from whose power individual human persons cannot extricate themselves through mere determination of will or ethical reform." But I think in the 1st Cent the perspective was more supernatural.

-------

The NICNT commentary (Gordon Fee) says "Gk. ἀρχή, ἐξουσία, and δύναμις. This is the first time Paul uses this terminology to refer to the “spiritual powers.” Cf. Eph. 1:21, where the same three terms (plus κυριότης) appear in combination; at least two of them appear together in Rom. 8:38; Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15; Eph. 3:10; 6:12. These other passages make it clear that Paul sees them as malevolent, demonic powers. In the cross Christ has already spelled their doom (Col. 2:15), which will be brought to completion at his coming."
 
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Scripture does NOT say that all will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomolgeo occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).etc”

Really der Alter? Kneeling, confessing, bowing etc are self-evidently signs of worship, fealty, supplication, self-abnegation, gratitude, reverence, honour and/or repentance.

While Jesus was saying these things, a synagogue leader came and knelt before Him. "My daughter has just died," he said. "But come and place Your hand on her, and she will live." (Matt 9:18)

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. (Matt 14:33)

And a leper came to Him and bowed down before Him, and said, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." (Matt 8:2)

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. (Matt 15:25)

Then the servant fell on his knees before him. 'Have patience with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' (Matt 18:26)

As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. (Acts 10:25)

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. (Matt 2:11)

The list of Bible examples goes on and on.
 
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To specifically address this FB post, God can absolutely love those who end up in hell even when they are experiencing His just punishment for their sin. To say otherwise would be like saying a parent doesn't love their child for disciplining them for bad behavior.

So God torturing ppl forever is analogous to grounding a naughty boy?

Are you aware of the psychopathic nature of that kind of thinking? The untold damage it's wrought throughout history as normative behavioural teaching? It's spiritual terrorism is what it is, sorry but it can't be rationalised by resort to some twee false analogy.

No, love can't condemn a person to an eternity of exquisite punishment, and certainly not divine love. Nor, for that matter, can justice. No man's sins are infinite in their scope or consequences.

So please consider the eschatology you're espousing, it's neither just nor loving, it adds up to the complete opposite. It brings no glory to God, but rather portrays him as an evil monster.
 
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[Irrelevant scripture Omitted]
The list of Bible examples goes on and on
.
…..Scripture does say that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, * Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
* "That day" -the day of judgement.
There ain’t no second chance for salvation after judgment and “depart from me.”
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated three times.

[1.] Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth
in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[2.] Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[3.] Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture.
[1.] Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David
. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2.] Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3.] Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4.] Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5.] Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[6.] Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[7.] Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
When the enemies of Jesus are made His footstool I'm sure they will be on their knees and will be saying anything they think will get them mercy.
…..What does “make your enemies your footstool” mean? Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
After being treated as footstools the enemies of Joshua did not become members of his Army.
 
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…..Scripture does say that every knee will bow but only believers will do so willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.
How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, * Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
* "That day" -the day of judgement.
There ain’t no second chance for salvation after judgment and “depart from me.”
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated three times.

[1.] Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth
in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[2.] Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[3.] Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture.
[1.] Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David
. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2.] Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3.] Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4.] Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5.] Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[6.] Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[7.] Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
When the enemies of Jesus are made His footstool I'm sure they will be on their knees and will be saying anything they think will get them mercy.
…..What does “make your enemies your footstool” mean? Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
After being treated as footstools the enemies of Joshua did not become members of his Army.

Yawn, see the Son see the Father. Where do we see Jesus in the Gospels smashing those who kneel before him? Where der Alter, it's not there. You have to rummage back through obscure OT events to drum something up. A more perfect solution is revealed in the new Joshua.
 
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Der Alte

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Yawn, see the Son see the Father. Where do we see Jesus in the Gospels smashing those who kneel before him? Where der Alter, it's not there. You have to rummage back through obscure OT events to drum something up. A more perfect solution is revealed in the new Joshua.
The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated three times.
[1.] Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[2.] Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[3.] Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture. This will actually happen.
[1.] Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2.] Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3.] Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4.] Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5.] Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[6.] Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[7.] Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool” mean? Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
After being his footstool the enemies of Joshua do not become faithful members of his Army.
 
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hedrick

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The word of God says every knee will bow. It must be important because it is repeated three times.
[1.] Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
[2.] Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[3.] Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the "fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, liars" etc. who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord. This is another important point it is recorded seven times in scripture. This will actually happen.
[1.] Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2.] Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3.] Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4.] Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5.] Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[6.] Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[7.] Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool” mean? Joshua shows us in Josh. 10.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
After being his footstool the enemies of Joshua do not become faithful members of his Army.
The Bible often contains things that are in tension, e.g. the importance of faith and how we live our lives. It contains both statements that God will defeat evil and that in the end everything will be good. Yes, God will make his enemies his footstool. But also, in the end everyone will turn to God and confess that he is their savior.

Look at the context of Is 45:23. In 45:22 it says "turn to me and be saved." The people who swear to him in 23 have turned to him and been saved.

When we have these kinds of tensions you can't take one side and explain away the other. The biggest problem I have with "literal" interpretation is that it isn't literal. In many different issues, it takes the passage that is most extreme and imposes that meaning on all others.

How does this happen? Are some hopeless people destroyed? Do people change their mind? I don't think this is clear. Particularly since the OT doesn't really speak much about the afterlife. In Is 45, the triumph envisioned is almost certainly within history, making it a bit hard to apply to the kinds of discussions we have here.
 
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...But also, in the end everyone will turn to God and confess that he is their savior.
Where is this specifically and unequivocally stated in scripture?
Look at the context of Is 45:23. In 45:22 it says "turn to me and be saved." The people who swear to him in 23 have turned to him and been saved.
Was this while they were still alive of after they died? I don't know of any verse which states that the unrighteous will be saved after death.
When we have these kinds of tensions you can't take one side and explain away the other. The biggest problem I have with "literal" interpretation is that it isn't literal. In many different issues, it takes the passage that is most extreme and imposes that meaning on all others.
How does this happen? Are some hopeless people destroyed? Do people change their mind? I don't think this is clear. Particularly since the OT doesn't really speak much about the afterlife. In Is 45, the triumph envisioned is almost certainly within history, making it a bit hard to apply to the kinds of discussions we have here.
I think that everything we say about this topic must be tempered by the words of Jesus.
Greek has always been the language of the EOB. Who better than they know the correct meaning of, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis.”

The Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible EOB — New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them. saying ‘Amen. I tell you: a much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment [κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion] but
the righteous into eternal 1ife.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
This NT can be D/L to your hard drive or whatever.

 
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Kris Jordan

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No, love can't condemn a person to an eternity of exquisite punishment, and certainly not divine love. Nor, for that matter, can justice. No man's sins are infinite in their scope or consequences.

Hi Shrewd Manager,

Just so I'm clear on what you're asserting, you don't believe the bible teaches there are eternal consequences for sin for those who reject Jesus' free gift of salvation?
 
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Hi Shrewd Manager,

Just so I'm clear on what you're asserting, you don't believe the bible teaches there are eternal consequences for sin for those who reject Jesus' free gift of salvation?

Dear Kris: Sowing seed has results. "Whatever you sow you shall surely reap."

When you use the word "eternal" added to the consequences, you are in the world of the Aidios God who ALONE it eternal.

Foundation for discipleship = You did not choose Me, I chose you.
 
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Hi Shrewd Manager,

Just so I'm clear on what you're asserting, you don't believe the bible teaches there are eternal consequences for sin for those who reject Jesus' free gift of salvation?

Can you show me where it says there are eternal consequences for sin?
 
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Can you show me where it says there are eternal consequences for sin?

I suppose it comes down to how you define "death" as in Romans 3:21 and whether or not the lake of fire which burns forever and ever in Revelation 20 is some sort of campfire that will run out of fuel once it has consumed everyone who is cast into it and thus cease to burn.
 
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hedrick

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I suppose it comes down to how you define "death" as in Romans 3:21 and whether or not the lake of fire which burns forever and ever in Revelation 20 is some sort of campfire that will run out of fuel once it has consumed everyone who is cast into it and thus cease to burn.
I don't think you mean Rom 3:21.
 
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hedrick

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I suppose it comes down to how you define "death" as in Romans 3:21 and whether or not the lake of fire which burns forever and ever in Revelation 20 is some sort of campfire that will run out of fuel once it has consumed everyone who is cast into it and thus cease to burn.
For what it's worth:
  • I think references to eternal fire, etc, have to be taken in the context of the OT reference, in which clearly they don't last forever. I don't agree with claims that eternal means "for an aeon." However the Bible uses eternal non-literally a lot.
  • I think Paul is pretty clear in 1 Cor 3:12 that there can be consequences without having people in eternal torment. Whether that passages applies to everyone or just Christians is up for debate, but it certainly shows that there can be consequences short of hell.
  • The Rev is so symbolic that I don't use it for doctrine. The final vision in Rev 21 and 22 do not include torment, but just how you reconcile that with the pit is open for discussion. The most straightforward understanding of the second death is annihilation.
Personally, I think Jesus' teachings about judgement could be understood as finite punishment, particularly outside of Matthew (who seems particularly focused on judgement).
 
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