What are the best arguments for the existence of God?

Blade · Apr 8, 2020

just something I remembered today.. by NF rapper.

"It's easy to blame God but harder to fix things
We look in the sky like, "Why ain't You listening?"
Watchin' the news in our livin' rooms on the big screens
And talkin' about, "If God's really real, then where is He?" (Is He, is He…)
You see the same God that we're sayin' might not even exist
Becomes real to us but only when we're dyin' in bed
When you're healthy, it's like we don't really care for Him then
"Leave me alone God. I'll call You when I need You again." (Need You again)
Which is funny, everyone will sleep in the pews
Then blame God for our problems like He's sleepin' on you
We turn our backs on Him; what do you expect Him to do?
It's hard to answer prayers when nobody's prayin' to you (Prayin' to you)
I look around at this world we walk on (Walk on)
It's a smack in the face; don't ever tell me there's no God (No God)
And if there isn't, then what are we here for?
And what are y'all doin' down there? I don't know, Lord, ah

bling · Apr 8, 2020

SocratesNow said:
I am very curious what arguments you all find most convincing for the existence of God, especially in the face of arguments individuals such as Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, or others bring up when contending with God's existence in the exchange of ideas. If you could share it would mean a lot, and hopefully we can find which ones are best!

A tree.

Jay Sea · Apr 8, 2020

It is a useless pursuit as no argument exists to prove the existence of God. I had an atheist friend who knew the bible better than or as well as any clergy man as shown in many discussions. He said it contained some good stories with good moral guidance along with such unbelievable evils that no GOOD GOD could have ordered. He added if God existed I would not follow that one.

in love
Jay

Gregory Thompson · Apr 8, 2020

SocratesNow said:
I am very curious what arguments you all find most convincing for the existence of God, especially in the face of arguments individuals such as Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, or others bring up when contending with God's existence in the exchange of ideas. If you could share it would mean a lot, and hopefully we can find which ones are best!

I think miracles as the fruit of faith tends to be the best for people looking for evidence. Jesus in his day healed the lepers, when people understood to not go near or touch them or they might catch it too. So today, Jesus would heal the coronavirus ... however, does such faith exist anymore?

Yet faith is the evidence (Hebrews 11).

Since actions speak louder than words, and the kingdom is a matter of power and not talk as Paul said - it would totally be the strongest evidence - yet ... :sorry:

Jok · Apr 8, 2020

Jay Sea said:
It is a useless pursuit as no argument exists to prove the existence of God.

I would say that the absurdity of an infinite regress is proof behind God’s existence being the the more logical conclusion.

As far as the title of this thread goes, you are not exempt from believing in an evil or a disinterested God.

Gregory Thompson · Apr 8, 2020

Jok said:
I would say that the absurdity of an infinite regress is proof behind God’s existence being the the more logical conclusion.

As far as the title of this thread goes, you are not exempt from believing in an evil or a disinterested God.

Though, to come to Him, you must first believe that He is, and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. (i.e. not evil)

So you can see God as an evil dictator - but you won't find Him that way.

Bob Crowley · Apr 9, 2020

I will just ask, if it is fundamentally contradictory to pursue a proof or reasonable argument for the existence of God from an intellectual (objective) standpoint, is it not possible that God is a flawed concept?

What do religious and non-religious people mean when they say the word "God"? In my own cases, I have a sense of a Being who fills all time and space, has infinite wisdom, created all things included the non-visible spiritual world as well as our own, is a mysterious Trinity, and who made a brief human appearance in the form of the God-Man Jesus Christ.

No doubt a Moslem would have a somewhat different concept (as my priest said once, "The family doesn't get on..."), and an atheist would probably have something in mind like the ultimate creator, if such a being existed.

Proving it intellectually is another matter.

Even if we could prove it to the philosophers' and atheists' satisfaction, the next bun fight would be about which concept of God is the actual truth - Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu, the clockwork God, the pantheistic God, the feminist God and all the rest. So the argument would go on anyway.

Speaking for myself I've had experiences since becoming Christian (and before for that matter) which indicated to me that God exists. The night my father died (nearly four years before I became a Christian and I was still an atheist), he turned up in my room. We argued and talked, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream as something was obviously coming for him and then just disappeared into eternity. I've had 3 double whammies (like a breath going through you in waves from head to foot) and a number of other experiences. So I have no problem accepting He's there.

If we could prove it, "faith" would hardly be needed, and since that what He apparently expects, then it stands to reason that He's set up the system so we CANNOT prove He's there. We're thrust back on faith.

After all it seems that God is the only theory of which we are willing to bypass reason and logic in order to blindly maintain belief. In short, any other theory which could not provide an iota of objective reasoning behind its validity is therefore found to be false, not to be accepted as something that one simply believes for the sake of believing.

We're not bypassing reason and logic altogether. We're looking around for evidence that He's there - we see a universe which runs on mathematical lines, with physical laws set in concrete, which we cannot change. We see elements like beauty, love, concern for justice, the human difference from all animals, our interest in finding answers to questions, including the eternal "Why?" of our existence.

Which is the real question - "Why?" are we here. If God exists, then He's got a reason for hiding Himself so well. This begs the question - who's on trial? Him, or us? While we search around for Him, there's the very real danger He knows all about us, and He's standing in the wings while we go through the motions, watching...

But the "proof" of God is a Scarlet Pimpernel - we see Him there, we see Him here, but just when we think we've got Him pinned down, He disappears again.

That's why I suspect we're going to find in the end, any such "proof" will somehow simply be a case of negation, based on Zero. There's either absolute nothingness, or there's God. But to prove it you'd need to be a philosopher well versed in philosophical concepts, and I suspect, quite familiar with Boolean Algebra.

Want to have a go?

SocratesNow · Apr 9, 2020

Bob Crowley said:
What do religious and non-religious people mean when they say the word "God"? In my own cases, I have a sense of a Being who fills all time and space, has infinite wisdom, created all things included the non-visible spiritual world as well as our own, is a mysterious Trinity, and who made a brief human appearance in the form of the God-Man Jesus Christ.

No doubt a Moslem would have a somewhat different concept (as my priest said once, "The family doesn't get on..."), and an atheist would probably have something in mind like the ultimate creator, if such a being existed.

Proving it intellectually is another matter.

Even if we could prove it to the philosophers' and atheists' satisfaction, the next bun fight would be about which concept of God is the actual truth - Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu, the clockwork God, the pantheistic God, the feminist God and all the rest. So the argument would go on anyway.

Speaking for myself I've had experiences since becoming Christian (and before for that matter) which indicated to me that God exists. The night my father died (nearly four years before I became a Christian and I was still an atheist), he turned up in my room. We argued and talked, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream as something was obviously coming for him and then just disappeared into eternity. I've had 3 double whammies (like a breath going through you in waves from head to foot) and a number of other experiences. So I have no problem accepting He's there.

If we could prove it, "faith" would hardly be needed, and since that what He apparently expects, then it stands to reason that He's set up the system so we CANNOT prove He's there. We're thrust back on faith.

We're not bypassing reason and logic altogether. We're looking around for evidence that He's there - we see a universe which runs on mathematical lines, with physical laws set in concrete, which we cannot change. We see elements like beauty, love, concern for justice, the human difference from all animals, our interest in finding answers to questions, including the eternal "Why?" of our existence.

Which is the real question - "Why?" are we here. If God exists, then He's got a reason for hiding Himself so well. This begs the question - who's on trial? Him, or us? While we search around for Him, there's the very real danger He knows all about us, and He's standing in the wings while we go through the motions, watching...

But the "proof" of God is a Scarlet Pimpernel - we see Him there, we see Him here, but just when we think we've got Him pinned down, He disappears again.

That's why I suspect we're going to find in the end, any such "proof" will somehow simply be a case of negation, based on Zero. There's either absolute nothingness, or there's God. But to prove it you'd need to be a philosopher well versed in philosophical concepts, and I suspect, quite familiar with Boolean Algebra.

Want to have a go?

I'm not going to make any pretensions at being able to prove or disprove God's existence, however I remain firmly convinced of the superiority of a mindset which maintains that in order for a theory to be accepted as true, especially a theory such as the existence of God, which is in fact an incredible claim, there must be credible evidence and/or reasoning behind such a theory, and if the acceptance of this theory as true depends entirely on 'faith', or belief regardless of evidence or reasoning, it seems that such a theory and its prevalence quickly becomes dangerous on many levels, and if nothing else a totally dogmatic and unchangeable theory grounded in nothing but faith. In short, if there is no reasoned or evidentiary argument for the existence of God, and if such arguments cannot be picked apart when provided, then there is no reason to believe in the existence of God, especially since personal experiences are not only unreliable, often manufactured or created ourselves, but also, as you mentioned yourself, resulting in contradictory and contentious understandings of God, religion, and incredible psychological or spiritual experiences.

SocratesNow · Apr 9, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I think miracles as the fruit of faith tends to be the best for people looking for evidence. Jesus in his day healed the lepers, when people understood to not go near or touch them or they might catch it too. So today, Jesus would heal the coronavirus ... however, does such faith exist anymore?

Yet faith is the evidence (Hebrews 11).

Since actions speak louder than words, and the kingdom is a matter of power and not talk as Paul said - it would totally be the strongest evidence - yet ...

Seen as you propose that faith is the evidence of God's existence, I'm curious what your exact definition of faith is?

Bob Crowley · Apr 10, 2020

SocratesNow said:
I'm not going to make any pretensions at being able to prove or disprove God's existence, however I remain firmly convinced of the superiority of a mindset which maintains that in order for a theory to be accepted as true, especially a theory such as the existence of God, which is in fact an incredible claim, there must be credible evidence and/or reasoning behind such a theory, and if the acceptance of this theory as true depends entirely on 'faith', or belief regardless of evidence or reasoning, it seems that such a theory and its prevalence quickly becomes dangerous on many levels, and if nothing else a totally dogmatic and unchangeable theory grounded in nothing but faith. In short, if there is no reasoned or evidentiary argument for the existence of God, and if such arguments cannot be picked apart when provided, then there is no reason to believe in the existence of God, especially since personal experiences are not only unreliable, often manufactured or created ourselves, but also, as you mentioned yourself, resulting in contradictory and contentious understandings of God, religion, and incredible psychological or spiritual experiences.

We have faith all the time in our everyday life. On those rare occasions I fly somewhere, I have faith in the manufacturers, maintenance crew, airport personnel, flight crew and the machine itself that it and I are going to get to my destination safely and in one piece.

I remember a story by my old Presbyterian Pastor. When he was a young bloke in seminary he shared digs with another chap. He used to call him "Son" as he was a bit short on adult maturity apparently.

Anyway this bloke had a habit of coming into his room and doing a flying leap toward the bed. He'd land on his back, bounce a couple of times and that was that.

Some of the other seminary students heard about this, and decided to play a trick. They removed the bolts from the bed frame and replaced them with matchsticks. Later that day this young bloke came in, did his usual Olympic high jump and landed flat on his back on the bed.

It collapsed with one almighty roar.

It was quite noticeable thereafter that every time he came in, he gingerly sat on the bed, and tested it first before lying down in a hesitant fashion.

He'd lost faith in the bed.

The thing is that we always have a certain amount of faith in our beliefs, no matter how tested they might be by experience. A space ship pilot might be calmly reassured that gravity will pull him towards the home planet. But if the very same pilot is in the inescapable grip of a black hole, he won't have faith in the tug of gravity, but terror.

Incidentally I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if in the next century or so, a spaceship crew suffers a very modern death by Black Hole.

Which incidentally will be the lot of those who find after death that their intellectual stance against God has led them into a terrifying nightmare.

A belief or proof of God isn't incredible. It's either true or false (a bit like Boolean logic to be flippant). Our eternity depends on it.

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What are the best arguments for the existence of God?

Blade

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bling

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Jay Sea

................ Ke ĉiuj vivu

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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Jok

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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Bob Crowley

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SocratesNow

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SocratesNow

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Bob Crowley

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