WHAT DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY AND IS IT LOST IN CALANDERS?

klutedavid

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What is not correct? Please be specific David. Your simply dismissing my post and the scriptures provided in them without showing why what was shared with you was not correct in your view? We call this handwaiving where I come from.

The post and scriptures provided to you in the post you are quoting from that you hand waived proves that your claims here are not correct or biblical as does the JEWISH Nation that has been keeping God's seventh day weekly Sabbath for 4000 years.

Sorry David but I believe God's Word disagrees with you. The new moon does not effect a continous seven day weekly cycle that shows that God's 4th commandment Sabbath is every "SEVENTH DAY" (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 day SABBATH; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 day SABBATH; continuous cycle) The new moons where for times and seasons and God's annual feast days not for God's weekly Sabbath which is simply every seven day. Go ask the Jews. Until then we will have a agree to disagree David thanks for sharing your view though.
It is not my view LGW.

I can prove that there are not two rest days in a lunar week following the cycle of lunar months.

Psalm 81:3
Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day.

The feast day of the new moon is a rest day, thus the Sabbath is seven days away. That is the Jewish lunar calendar according to King David.

1 Samuel 20:34
Then Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did not eat food on the second day of the new moon...

The count of the days of the week are from the new moon.

Read it again; on the second day of the new moon.

No papal calendar in King David's era.

Did you honestly think the SDA would get it right, LGW?

Are you aware that the Jews, still to this day, honor the new moon day?
 
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Al Touthentop

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Hi Al Touthentop, nice to meet you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I have not time for this one now but I would like to address it through the scriptures in detail as I believe much of what your presenting here is not relevant to Lord's day from REVELATION 1:10 and the modern day Greek is different to the Koine Greek (old Greek Langauge of the bible) of the new testament scriptures.
Modern Greek is certainly different. No doubt. But the artifact of calling Sunday the Lord's Day, is from the early church and it has survived into modern Greek with not a bit of change. Same word, same spelling, same meaning. No "lost" knowledge therefore.

As to the scholars? None of them agree among themselves so to me that it not where we should be pointing people because if they do not agree among themselves it is only leading people to confusion (Babylon).

Greek language scholars may not agree on doctrine, but on language, they are usually in agreement. I didn't point to Bill Mounce's article to argue doctrine but to provide his interesting perspective on the phrase "first day of the week." Now what's interesting about that is it's how Paul used that term to describe when the church came together.
I believe (and will show why) you misinterpret COLOSSIANS 2.

Which won't disprove Hebrews 8
There is no scripture that says Sunday is the Lord's Day. According to the scriptures the "Lords day" is defined as the Sabbath day *MATTHEW 12:8.

Which was stated while the law of Moses was still in effect. The Sabbath is still Saturday. The Jews still keep it. Christians did not. And you can take me to Acts and the Bereans and the fact that Paul went into the Synagogue's on the Sabbath. I know all of that. Jews still kept the Sabbath (Saturday) Christians met on Sunday.

I hope to prove in detail everything shared in this post when I have some more time. I appreciate you sharing what you believe though and hope our discussion will be profitable.

God bless.

You won't prove it to my satisfaction because I've already studied this and the scriptures are pretty clear that Christians met on the first day of the week.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is not my view LGW.
I believe it surely is your view dear friend. As the bible (as shown in my earlier posts to you) and the JEWISH nation which has been keeping Gods' 4th commandment weekly Sabbath already for 4000 years also disagree with you. So we will have to agree to disagree my friend. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.
I can prove that there are not two rest days in a lunar week following the cycle of lunar months.
To me David that is a mute point as the weekly Sabbath is a continuous weekly cycle every seventh day as shown in earlier posts to you.
Psalm 81:3
Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day.

The feast day of the new moon is a rest day, thus the Sabbath is seven days away. That is the Jewish lunar calendar according to King David.

1 Samuel 20:34
Then Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did not eat food on the second day of the new moon...

The count of the days of the week are from the new moon.

Read it again; on the second day of the new moon.
As posted in the scriptures in the posts you have not addressed and ignored David, the Sun and the Moon were made on the 4th Day of the creation week while the Sabbath was made on the seventh day. Those proves that the New Moon monthly sabbath theory is not true as it does not fit a seven day creation (GENESIS 2:1-3 and GENESIS 1:14) weekly continuous cycle. This means your interpretation contradicts GENESIS and the creation week. For your interpretation to be true the Moon would need to be created six days after the Moon while the Sabbath was created three days after the Sun and moon. Fact is my dear friend it is not.
No papal calendar in King David's era.
Not needed dear friend as the Sabbath was and still is a seven day weekly cycle in the Jewish calanders. Every seventh day of the week is the Sabbath. The JEWS have been keeping it this way for 4000 years. Go and ask them if you do not believe me.
Are you aware that the Jews, still to this day, honor the new moon day?
Indeed but not to determine the seventh day Sabbath of God's 4th commandment which is a weekly continuous cycle (every seventh day of the week). They do so to determine the times of the years and the seasons and to continue keeping the annual feast days in accordence with GENESIS 1:14 and other scriptures that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

Happy to discuss this further once I have more times as I said to someone else here and once all the OP topic info has been shared. Still have much to share here.

Hope this helps
 
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Al Touthentop

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I do not believe a Saturday or Sunday Sabbath is scriptural. These are fixed Sabbath days established by simply glancing at a wall calendar. However, in the very beginning God stated that He put lights in the heavens to "divide day from night, for signs and appointed times, for days and years (Genesis 1:14).Thus I believe our calendar which includes the Sabbath is to be determined by the luni-solar calendar; not the Gregorian calendar. The Sabbath I believe is determined by the occurrence of the New Moon which changes each month; thus correspondingly the Sabbath day is not the same day from month to month.

Scripture refers to the days of the week by number. Our present weekly calendar refers to names of false Gods; i.e., Saturday (Saturn's day).
We do not question these things as it has been taught and ingrained in all of us since childhood.
However, bear in mind Dan 7:25 - He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


You are correct to say that the important thing is the numbers. We could make up our own names for the days and the numbers still plug in. The numbers from 1st to 7th are what matter.


Day of Week
1. Captain Kirk
2. Sabrina
3. Spock
4. Muff Muff
5. Robbie the Robot
6. Rin Tin Tin
7. Ichabod Crane

Day number seven was the Sabbath. Today we call that day Saturday (Satyr's day).

After Jesus was crucified, he was raised on the first day of the week (μια των σαββατων).

Christians worshiped on that day.
κατα μιαν σαββατου, every Sunday, 1 Cor 16:2
'According to the first day of the week'

Jews who rejected Christ still worshiped on the seventh day (σαββατων)

I don't think God cares what you call them. The Lord's day is our current Sunday.
 
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Al Touthentop

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There is no scripture that says Sunday is the Lord's Day.
God bless.

I just wanted to point out that this is a tautology. It's true that there is no scripture that says the Lord's day is 'Sunday' because there was no day called Sunday when the New Testament was written. The word Sunday didn't even become widely used until the 13th century. So saying that we have no scripture connecting the two is utterly meaningless.

We know that Sunday is 'the Lord's day' by association. Sunday is the first day of the week. In Greece, the name for that word is the same word John used in Revelation to refer to it. John was not keeping the Sabbath. The term 'The Lord's Day' is not used ever in reference to the Sabbath in the New Testament. If somebody wanted to write about the Sabbath in Greek, they used the word σαββατων or some form of it.

Matthew 12:8 does not at all mention 'The Lord's Day.' It says, "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.'
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hi Al Touthentop, sorry for the dely in getting back to this. Let's talk details here as I think it would be good to examine some of your claims here. I may break this down into smaller posts as you are covering many different topics and subject matter if you do not mind.
It's an interesting question but the law of Moses is no longer in effect. That law was "nailed to the cross" when Jesus died for our sins. His resurrection on the first day of the week, what we know now as 'Sunday' is actually still referred to in the same words written in the New Testament, in Greece today. Christ's resurrection made the the day we now know as Sunday, the sacred day on which we worship.
God's LAW (10 commandments) written on stone that give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS in the new covenant *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 are not the Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sin written in the Mosiac book of the the law of the old covenant *HEBREWS 10:1-12; EXODUS 24:7; DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26. It seems you are confused between God's etenal law (10 commandments) that defines what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 with the Mosiac "SHADOW" laws written in the book of the old covenant *EXODUS 24:7; HEBREWS 10:1-12.
In Greece the modern word is Κυριακή for 'Sunday.' It literally means 'Lord's.' There has been no change in even the spelling of that word since John's use of it in Revelation 1.
No dear friend the modern Greek was not used in the writting of the new testament scriptures. The KOINE Greek was used. Lets look at this in detail in the original Greek proving why your claims are not true.

The term "Lord's day" used in Revelation 1:10 in the original old Koine Greek is not linked to μία των which is used in the NEW TESTAMENT Greek which means FIRST DAY. Yet it is the scriptures alone that link "the Lords day" to the SABBATH DAY...

MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY.

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said to them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, AND NOT MAN FOR THE SABBATH:[28], THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS LORD ALSO OF THE SABBATH DAY.

The term "Lord's day" used in Revelation 1:10 is not linked to μία των which is used in the NEW TESTAMENT Greek which means FIRST DAY (our Sunday) in the old Koine Greek which the new testament is written in. In Revelations 1:10 "Lords Day κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ does not link to any scripture reference in the NEW TESTAMENT to μιά των σαββάτων (the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK). The Koine Greek used here as κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ used in Revelations 1:10 is in reference to the Lord's ownership of the day. It does not say that this day that JESUS is the Lord of is in reference to μιά των σαββάτων which means the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK.

So what does this mean? It means your claim here to REVELATIONS 1:10 being in referrence to Sunday being the "Lords Day" is not true. If you believe it is true I would simply then challenge you to provide me one scriptures in all of the bible that says Sunday (or the first day of the week) is the "Lords Day" if you cannot your simply reading into the scriptures what the scripture does not teach.

The term "Lord's day" was usurped by apostate Christians in Alexandria and at Rome, given another definition, not one found based in scripture:

The church which Jesus 'established' never kept the 'first [day] of the week' as Sabbath, and in fact, every single 'first [day] of the week' text in the NT, demonstrates the perpetuity of the 7th day as the Sabbath, since the first [day] was simply a number pointing to that glorious culmination of the weeks days which pointed to Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath.

The "Lord's day" according to scripture:

Genesis 2:1-3 - 'the seventh day', 'God'
Exodus 16:3 - "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD'
Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day'
Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God'
Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day'
Exodus 35:2 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD'
Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'
Deuteronomy 5:14 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God'
Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'
Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant)
Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sababth ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord'
Isaiah 66:23 - 'one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD'
Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day'
Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day'
Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day'
Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]'
Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'

There is NO scripture that says Sunday or the FIRST DAY of the week is the Lords Day. God's Word says the Lord's day is the Sabbath day. This is the day God rested on, he set apart and made a Holy day at the completion of the creation week and made a memorial for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Jesus is the God of creation and he is the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:27-28)

Can you show from the scriptures alone that Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY" if not why not? If we cannot are we following man made teachings that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in Matthew 15:3-9?
Bill Mounce, a quite formidable Greek Scholar has a good article about the first day of the week and especially the word σαββατον a word which means '7th day' but can also mean 'week'. Sabbath(s) and Sunday (σάββατον) | billmounce.com
As to the scholars? None of them agree among themselves so to me that it not where we should be pointing people because if they do not agree among themselves it is only leading people to confusion (Babylon).
LoveGodsWord wrote: 4. If God's 4th commandment "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" has not been lost and there is no scripture that says it has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day, what do the scriptures teach are the consequences for knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments?
Nothing. Those commandments were replaced as a set of modified commandments. Thou shalt not murder became - love your brother and love your enemy. Thou shalt not commit adultery became - thou shalt not lust in your heart. The old covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant as is made plain throughout the New Testament.
Actually Colossians 2 does not say anywhere that Gods' 10 commandments are nailed to the cross and abolished as many try to interpret these scriptures. We will look at some of the context and detail shortly. Such an interpretation would contradict all of the new testament and the writings of Paul elsewhere because through the LAW (10 commandment) according to Paul is the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. I believe you are confused here dear friend as Love is not separate from God's LAW it establishes it *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4 and is why JESUS says "ON THESE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE TO GOD AND MAN HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. Paul says the same thing as JESUS in ROMANS 13:8-10 and JAMES agrees with JESUS and PAUL on the same topic of LOVE and LAW in JAMES 2:10-11.

to be continued...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Colossians 2 13 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

COLOSSIANS 2:14 and EPHESIANS 2. 15 What is the meaning of the handwriting in “ORDINANCES” that was blotted out and nailed to the cross, or "LAWS IN ORDINANCES" is it referring to God's 10 commandments or something else?

GREEK meaning; blotting out (G1813; ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō; ex-al-i'-fo; means to obliterate; erase; wipe away) the handwriting of ordinances which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way nailing it to the cross. The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree; The Greek meaning of handwriting of ordinances in V14 is a hand written legal document or book of civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws. These are the laws referred to in verse 14 that have been erased and are nailed to the cross.

The handwriting of ORDINANCES {Mosaic laws for meat and drink offerings and annual festivals that have their fulfilment in Jesus} has been blotted out. They were the shadows. They were all prophetic in nature, teaching the plan of salvation which pointing to Jesus as the true lamb of God and our great high priest and His Work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Leviticus 1; 3-12; 14-17; 22-23; Number 6-8; 15; 28-29; Deut 12; 33; Ex 25:8; John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28)

Linking the new to the Old...

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, her FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all her SOLEMN FEASTS.

The old covenant (MOSAIC ordinances for remission of sin) was to pass away..

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

Meat offering by ordinance. There ya go. Hebrews 9 was ofcourse correct

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings). Hebrews 10{1} says that plain and clear. The Word does not say the Sabbath was the shadow of Christ which really makes no sense at all

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

Before Christ the red heifers lived their lives in fear and trembling, thinking they might be next offering. No worries no more.

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

We are no longer under the law concerning the meat and drink offerings {the shadow}. Jesus FULFILLED that portion of the law. Its all grace now! Jesus Himself said “For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed”.

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:

Col.2 {16} is used by all Sunday morning denominations so as to rid themselves of Gods Sabbath day. It’s also used to go against Gods laws concerning eating unclean things such as the portly porker. Can their doctrines be found in the scriptures by looking at the followers of the RISEN Christ?

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Paul as his manner was... still keeping the Sabbath…………………..

ACTS 10 [11] And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. [13] And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. [14] BUT PETER SAID, NOT SO, LORD; FOR I HAVE NEVER EATEN ANY THING THAT IS COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Peter refused to eat the unclean thing even after the risen Christ………………..

ACTS 10 [28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but GOD HATH SHEWED ME THAT I SHOULD NOT CALL ANY MAN COMMON OR UNCLEAN.

Verse 28 explains the great sheet. No man is now unclean…………………………….

JOEL 1 [13] Gird yourselves, and lament, YE PRIESTS: howl, YE MINISTERS of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for THE MEAT OFFERING AND THE DRINK OFFERING IS WITHHOLDEN FROM THE HOUSE OF YOUR GOD. [14] Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord, [15] Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Doesn’t look good for some, come the Day of the Lord.

NUMBERS 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.

Above scripture confirms that the offerings are also called oblations

ISAIAH 1 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Bring no more vain oblations in the new moons and the monthly and annual ceremonial Sabbath feast days. WHY? Because Jesus nailed these offerings (oblations) to the cross. The 10 commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were never nailed to the cross only our sins were through Jesus and the ceremonial laws of Moses that were used for the forgiveness of sins along with the feast days that pointed to the life, death, resurrection and ministration of Jesus as the lamb of God and our great High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, WHICH HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}

The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ZECHARIAH 9:9-11 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water

Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant...blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

New testament...blood

HEBREWS 10:1 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings. There is that word “ordinance” (dogma) being used again which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical Mosaic laws: that were written in the book (Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14)

HEBREWS [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

He taketh away the first {covenant}, that he may establish the second.

JOHN 6 [53] [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

And there’s the 2nd……………….

MATTHEW 5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. [18] For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus did not come to change or destroy God's Law (10 commandments). The Sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfill what was written of Him in the MOSAIC BOOK of the law.

If you would like a detailed scripture response to Colossians 2 starting here click me

............

ANSWER: No, COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 is not saying God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is in reference to the "SHADOW LAWS" in ordinances which mean ceremonial and acclesiastical laws for remission of sins and the penalty of sin which was against us.

to be continued...
 
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Oldmantook

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Hi Oldmantook nice to see you and welcome here dear friend.

I have not finished this but of the OP here as our time is indeed not God's time which I believe is defined in GENESIS 1-2. God's time is not from day to day as our calanders show but from evening to evening or sunset to sunset which makes up a day. The Seventh day Sabbath according to the scriptures co-inciding with our time is therefore sunset Friday to sunset Saturday.

The new moons do not determine the days of the week according to the scriptures the days of the week are a continous weekly cycle which is every seven days. Therefore according to the scripture God's SABBATH is every "SEVENTH DAY". *EXODUS 20:10.

The Sun and the Moon were given to determine times and seasons and God's annual sabbaths in feast days not God's 4th commandment Sabbath which is simply every "SEVENTH DAY" of the weekly cycle.

The JEWS have been keeping it this way for 4000 years to this very present day.

God bless.
Thanks for the welcome; appreciate it. If the Jewish calendar has been unchanged for the past 4,000 years then I would have no problem agreeing with you. Problem is unbeknownst to most people, the Jewish calendar underwent a change brought about by Hilell the Second. The present Jewish calendar, or Hillel II calendar was instituted in 359 C.E. So the germane question is so what was used before this?

“Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon,”
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 12, p. 1039.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.”
The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. 5, p 410,

The Hebrew calendar has evolved over time. For example, until the Tannaitic period (approximately 10–220 CE) the months were set by observation of a new crescent moon, with an additional month added every two or three years to correct for the difference between twelve lunar months and the solar year and, therefore, to keep Passover in the spring. The addition of the extra month was also based on observation of natural events: specifically, the ripening of the barley crop; the age of the kids, lambs, and doves; the ripeness of the fruit trees; and the relation of the date to the tekufah (seasons).
Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia


The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.

Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, "Holidays," p. 410.

Obviously, the Sabbath day today is no longer dependent on a fluid lunar cycle but is now fixed according to the Gregorian calendar. One need only stare at a calendar on the wall instead of observing the stages of the moon. How did this change come about?
Under the reign of Constantius (337-362) the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that . . . the computation of the calendar [was] forbidden under pain of severe punishment.” (1906 Jewish Encyclopedia; CALENDAR, HISTORY OF: By: Joseph Jacobs, Cyrus Adler)
It was as a reaction to this situation that Hillel II, President of the Sanhedrin, took the extraordinary step in 359 C.E. of modifying the ancient Biblical calendar to allow the Jews to more easily coexist with the Christians. Thus the Jewish calendar today is an accommodation to threats and pressure and is not the same calendar and Sabbath day that existed in Jesus' time.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hebrews 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Indeed we are not in the old covenant now we are in the new covenant. In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and according to the new testament scriptures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it and just like any other of God's 10 commandments if we knowingly break it when God gives us a knowledge of his truth we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. According to the scriptures any one who knowingly breaks any one of Gods' 10 commandments and continues on known unrepentant sin according to the new covenant scriptures will not enter into God's Kingdom because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *ACTS 17:30-31; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Thanks for the welcome; appreciate it. If the Jewish calendar has been unchanged for the past 4,000 years then I would have no problem agreeing with you. Problem is unbeknownst to most people, the Jewish calendar underwent a change brought about by Hilell the Second. The present Jewish calendar, or Hillel II calendar was instituted in 359 C.E. So the germane question is so what was used before this?

“Originally, the New Moon was not fixed by astronomical calculation, but was solemnly proclaimed after witnesses had testified to the reappearance of the crescent of the moon,”
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 12, p. 1039.

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.”
The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia Vol. 5, p 410,

The Hebrew calendar has evolved over time. For example, until the Tannaitic period (approximately 10–220 CE) the months were set by observation of a new crescent moon, with an additional month added every two or three years to correct for the difference between twelve lunar months and the solar year and, therefore, to keep Passover in the spring. The addition of the extra month was also based on observation of natural events: specifically, the ripening of the barley crop; the age of the kids, lambs, and doves; the ripeness of the fruit trees; and the relation of the date to the tekufah (seasons).
Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia


The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
, "Holidays," p. 410.

Obviously, the Sabbath day today is no longer dependent on a fluid lunar cycle but is now fixed according to the Gregorian calendar. One need only stare at a calendar on the wall instead of observing the stages of the moon. How did this change come about?
Under the reign of Constantius (337-362) the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that . . . the computation of the calendar [was] forbidden under pain of severe punishment.” (1906 Jewish Encyclopedia; CALENDAR, HISTORY OF: By: Joseph Jacobs, Cyrus Adler)
It was as a reaction to this situation that Hillel II, President of the Sanhedrin, took the extraordinary step in 359 C.E. of modifying the ancient Biblical calendar to allow the Jews to more easily coexist with the Christians. Thus the Jewish calendar today is an accommodation to threats and pressure and is not the same calendar and Sabbath day that existed in Jesus' time.

Hi OMT, nice to see you again. Yea thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I have seen a lot of these claims already and looked into many. None of which have any truth in them in regards to a change in the weekly seven day cycle. If you study these claims through all of them are not referring to God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath of God's 4th commandment which are on a conitunuous weekly cycle as dicussed earlier. What many of the references you have supplied here are referring to are in relation to annual calander changes not daily or weekly changes and also in reference to the annual sabbaths in feast days not God's seventh day weekly Sabbath which is every seventh day on a seven day weekly cycle which does not effect the calander changes. So pretty much everything you have posted here brother does not effect a seven day weekly cycle but a yearly one. The JEWS have been and are very strict in gurading God's 4th commandment which these annual calanders changes do not effect. None of these calander changes effect a continual daily weekly cycle which is unbroken.

God bless.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I just wanted to point out that this is a tautology. It's true that there is no scripture that says the Lord's day is 'Sunday' because there was no day called Sunday when the New Testament was written. The word Sunday didn't even become widely used until the 13th century. So saying that we have no scripture connecting the two is utterly meaningless.

Nothing personal dear friend but no. There is no scriptures that says that the Lord's Day is Sunday just the same as there is no scirputure that says that the first day of the week is the Lords day. Which ever way you wish to spin it there is no scriptures.

We know that Sunday is 'the Lord's day' by association. Sunday is the first day of the week.

Ok show me the scripture that says that the "Lords day" is the first day of the week? You have no scripture to you.

In Greece, the name for that word is the same word John used in Revelation to refer to it.

Not in the old KOINE Greek that the new testament scriptures were written in as there was no Sunday in the new testament Koine Greek. The term "Lord's day" used in Revelation 1:10 is not linked to μία των which is used in the NEW TESTAMENT Greek which means FIRST DAY (our Sunday) in the old Koine Greek which the new testament is written in. In Revelations 1:10 "Lords Day κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ does not link to any scripture reference in the NEW TESTAMENT to μιά των σαββάτων (the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK). The Koine Greek used here as κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ used in Revelations 1:10 is in reference to the Lord's ownership of the day. It does not say that this day that JESUS is the Lord of is in reference to μιά των σαββάτων which means the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. So what does this mean? It means your claim here to REVELATIONS 1:10 being in referrence to Sunday being the "Lords Day" is not true.

John was not keeping the Sabbath. The term 'The Lord's Day' is not used ever in reference to the Sabbath in the New Testament.

Sure it is. You where just provided the sciptures.What day is the Lords day?
MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY.

God's Word seems to answer this question quite nicely don't you think?

If somebody wanted to write about the Sabbath in Greek, they used the word σαββατων or some form of it. Matthew 12:8 does not at all mention 'The Lord's Day.' It says, "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.

Not really dear friend and herer is why. If I say I own this house does that mean if I say I purchased this house it does not mean I own this house after I purchased it? Of course not.

All through the old and new testament scriptures God's 4th commandment "seventh day" weekly Sabbath is referred to as belonging to God just like the Koine Greek scriptures are referring to the day that belongs to the Lord in κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ (Lord's ownership of the day) *REVELATIONS 1:10

REVELATION 1:10 THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY WHY?

Let's look at the Koine Greek (Old Greek) in which the NT scriptures were written again..

REVELATION 1:10 [10] I WAS IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Koine Greek words used for the day that JOHN was in the Spirit of as the LORD'S DAY are

REVELATION 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' as ownership or belonging to ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

REVELATION 1:10 show that THE LORDS (κυριακη) DAY used in REVELATION 1:10 is in reference to the LORDS OWNERSHIP OF THE DAY or the DAY BELONGING TO THE LORD that JOHN was in the Spirit of.

What day is God claiming ownership of?

In ISIAIAH 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "MY DAY" as in ownership or belonging to:

ISAIAH 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from THE SABBATH, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

There is only one that he has BLESSED and made HIS HOLY DAY OF REST and has commanded his people to REMEMBER and keep *GENESIS 2:1-3; EXODUS 20:8-11

God's "OWNERSHIP" of the SABBATH DAY or "LORD'S DAY is also repeated elsewhere as "MY" (ownership of the day as in the Greek used in REVELATION 1:10 κυριακη)

EXODUS 31:12-18 [12] Then the Lord said to Moses, [13] Say to the Israelites, You must observe MY SABBATHS (belonging to; ownership to the Lord; or LORD'S DAY). This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

MATTHEW 12:8 as well as MARK 2:27-28 show that JESUS is GOD and the CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH as witnessed by MOSES in GENESIS chapters 1 and 2.

JESUS says that he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY. It is the LORDS DAY because on the SABBATH DAY JESUS; Set the SEVENTH DAY of the week apart for mankind as a HOLY DAY. On the SEVENTH DAY of CREATION GOD (JESUS) BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY, and SET IT APART as a HOLY DAY for mankind (BEFORE THE FALL) to REST with GOD. *GENESIS 2:1-3.

What these scriptures prove is that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is the LORDS DAY that he set apart for mankind and show he is the creator of HEAVEN and EARTH. Now JOHN in REVELATION 1:10 knew that JESUS is the creator GOD and he refers to the SABBATH DAY as the LORD'S DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. These are God's WORD brother (not mine) and they disagree with you because there is no scripture that says SUNDAY is "THE LORDS DAY" but JESUS says he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. JOHN in reference to being in the Spirit on “THE LORDS DAY REVELATION 1:10 is referring to JESUS as the creator of heaven and earth and the SABBATH DAY that GOD rested, blessed and made holy for mankind on the SEVENTH DAY of creation is the one day in seven that God claims as His own.

So now we have looked at the GREEK application and word meanings as well as parrallel scriptures of the LORD'S OWNERSHIP of the SABBATH DAY from the old testament. Let's look at the new testament scriptures that define what day is THE LORDS DAY asking the question...

WHICH DAY IS THE LORDS DAY OR THE DAY?

MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:[28], THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

.............

CONCLUSION: Based on the Greek words used and the old and new testament scriptures as shown above THE LORD'S DAY is in reference to the day that the LORD claims as his own that has it's origin in creation that he rested, blessed and set apart as a holy day for all mankind. THE LORDS DAY therefore that JOHN was in the Spirit on in REVELATION 1:10 is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH that belongs to God who claims ownership of in both the old and new testament scriptures. Yep seems that God's claiming ownership of the seventh day Sabbath alright?

Ok the above prove from the scriptures alone teach that God claims ownership of the seventh day Sabbath. Now lets be honest dear friend, where is the scripture that says to the "first day of the week" (Sunday) is the "Lords Day"? Yep there is none. So if there is no scripture who do we believe and follow, God's Word or the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9?

BABYLON the great mother of harlots has fallen who will hear the call to go out and meet the bridegroom?
 
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klutedavid

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I believe it surely is your view dear friend. As the bible (as shown in my earlier posts to you) and the JEWISH nation which has been keeping Gods' 4th commandment weekly Sabbath already for 4000 years also disagree with you. So we will have to agree to disagree my friend. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

To me David that is a mute point as the weekly Sabbath is a continuous weekly cycle every seventh day as shown in earlier posts to you.

As posted in the scriptures in the posts you have not addressed and ignored David, the Sun and the Moon were made on the 4th Day of the creation week while the Sabbath was made on the seventh day. Those proves that the New Moon monthly sabbath theory is not true as it does not fit a seven day creation (GENESIS 2:1-3 and GENESIS 1:14) weekly continuous cycle. This means your interpretation contradicts GENESIS and the creation week. For your interpretation to be true the Moon would need to be created six days after the Moon while the Sabbath was created three days after the Sun and moon. Fact is my dear friend it is not.

Not needed dear friend as the Sabbath was and still is a seven day weekly cycle in the Jewish calanders. Every seventh day of the week is the Sabbath. The JEWS have been keeping it this way for 4000 years. Go and ask them if you do not believe me.

Indeed but not to determine the seventh day Sabbath of God's 4th commandment which is a weekly continuous cycle (every seventh day of the week). They do so to determine the times of the years and the seasons and to continue keeping the annual feast days in accordence with GENESIS 1:14 and other scriptures that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

Happy to discuss this further once I have more times as I said to someone else here and once all the OP topic info has been shared. Still have much to share here.

Hope this helps
You need to pay more attention.

The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
, "Holidays," p. 410.

That is from a Jewish Encyclopedia and not someone's claim or opinion.

That is a fact my friend.

The Genesis account of the creation week has nothing to do with the more formal declaration, made to the Jews in Exodus.

Exodus 16:23
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.

That is the first time the word 'Sabbath' is mentioned and that was under a lunar calendar.

You can't use a simple Genesis story and establish doctrine on that basis.

The Genesis account is a simple description of creation written to a simple people.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You need to pay more attention.

The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
, "Holidays," p. 410.

That is from a Jewish Encyclopedia and not someone's claim or opinion.

That is a fact my friend.

The Genesis account of the creation week has nothing to do with the more formal declaration, made to the Jews in Exodus.

Exodus 16:23
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.

That is the first time the word 'Sabbath' is mentioned and that was under a lunar calendar.

You can't use a simple Genesis story and establish doctrine on that basis.

The Genesis account is a simple description of creation written to a simple people.
Not really David. Perhaps it is you who needs to pay attention and read the posts and the scriptures that are being shared that show why God's seventh day weekly Sabbath of God's 4th commandment cannot be based on a luna cycle.

Maybe it would help the conversation here, if you can explain to everyone and answer these simple questions that I was showing through the scriptures earlier.

Q1. Please show us how a change in a yearly calander effects the nunber of days in a week and changes a single day in a continuous seven day weekly cycle?

Q2. If the Sun and the moon is made on the 4th day of the creation week *GENESIS 1:14 and the Seventh day Sabbath was made on the "seventh day of the creation week", how can a luna cycle determine a weekly seventh day Sabbath?

Please think these questions through. Perhaps they will help to understand the argument a little better here and benefit the discussion. I have more questions but just a few here to start with may help the conversartion.

The reference you have provided is to the sabbaths in annual feasts not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments which is based on a weekly seven day continuous cycle not an annual cycle. Look at the reference your quoting - Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, "Holidays," p. 410. I already pointed this out to someone else.

The new moon marks the beginning of a new month not a change in the day of the week which is on a continuous seven day cycle.

Blessings.
 
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klutedavid

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Not really David. Perhaps it is you who needs to pay attention and read the posts and the scriptures that are being shared that show why God's seventh day weekly Sabbath of God's 4th commandment cannot be based on a luna cycle.
You have been misled by people in the nineteenth century. They did not understand the scripture.
Maybe it would help the conversation here, if you can explain to everyone and answer these simply questions that I was showing through the scriptures earlier.
This sounds entertaining.
Q1. Please show us how a change in a yearly calander effects the nunber of days in a week and changes a single day in a continuous seven day weekly cycle?
A continuous weekly cycle is a hall mark of the solar, papal calendar. The lunar calendar week cannot start until a month starts. Once the month starts then the days of the first week commence. It's plainly simple to understand.
If the Sun and the moon is made on the 4th day of the creation week *GENESIS 1:14 and the Seventh day Sabbath was made on the "seventh day of the creation week", how can a luna cycle determine a weekly seventh day Sabbath?
Since the Sun is created on the fourth day, then God was not using a solar calendar.

The Genesis account of creation is a simplistic narration for an ancient, simple people. We know from a number of disciplines in science; that life is much older than say 6000 years.

Please think these questions through. Perhaps they will help you do understand the argument a little better here and benefit to the discussion. I have more questions but just a few here to start with may help the conversartion.
Any more questions gratefully received.
As posted earlier the luna calander according to the scriptures was to determine times, signs and seasons, time of day etc. The reference you have provided is to the sabbaths in annual feasts not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments which is based on a weekly seven day continuous cycle not an annual cycle. Look at the reference your quoting Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, "Holidays," p. 410.
Holidays occur when your not working. The sabbath is primarily a rest day or even a holiday.
The new moon marks the beginning of a new month not a new day of the week which is on a continuous seven day cycle.
Your so confused.

A lunar calendar starts the weekly count after the new moon day. The first day of any lunar month is always the new moon day.

If you were right, then a Sabbath could occur on a new moon day. Or a Sabbath could occur the day after a new moon day. Which is simply ridiculous. Rest days are always six days apart on the ancient Jewish lunar calendar.

The new moon day starts the month and that is a fact.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have been misled by people in the nineteenth century. They did not understand the scripture.
Nonsense. I have studied this topic for myself seeking Gods' guidence and what I am sharing with you is based on the scriptures. Your proposing a belief based on a misrepresentation of the scriptures. This has been demonstrated in previous posts to you.
LoveGodsWord wrote: Q1. Please show us how a change in a yearly calander effects the nunber of days in a week and changes a single day in a continuous seven day weekly cycle?
A continuous weekly cycle is a hall mark of the solar, papal calendar. The lunar calendar week cannot start until a month starts. Once the month starts then the days of the first week commence. It's plainly simple to understand.
Not really. For me David I believe it is you that has been misled but I am happy to prove why I say this. Now why do I say this? Because you have not answered the questions asked of you. For example, what your saying in Q1 in effect is that if we are at say day 4 (Wednesday equivallent) in a biblical seven day weekly cycle at the end of the month day 4 turns back to day 1 (Sunday equivallent) in the new month so effectively you have broken the biblical seven day continuous weekly cycle which was given by God at creation *GENESIS 1:3-31 to GENESIS 2:1-3 making your claims here not biblical or based on the scriptures. Your breaking the seven day weekly cycle with that explaination and rejecting the weekly seven day creation account given through the scriptures. Think it through David.
LoveGodsWord wrote: Q2. If the Sun and the moon is made on the 4th day of the creation week *GENESIS 1:14 and the Seventh day Sabbath was made on the "seventh day of the creation week", how can a luna cycle determine a weekly seventh day Sabbath?
Since the Sun is created on the fourth day, then God was not using a solar calendar. The Genesis account of creation is a simplistic narration for an ancient, simple people. We know from a number of disciplines in science; that life is much older than say 6000 years
Goodness how does your response here answer Q2. David? We are talking scripture now that shows that a Luna cycle does not work out mathmatically if you did not understand why the question was asked. In effect your denying God's account of the seven day week account of creation given in *GENESIS 1:3-31 to GENESIS 2:1-3 and are making claims here that are not biblical or based on the scriptures. Once again you did not answer the question asked of you and your denying the Genesis account of the seven day weekly cycle given by God at creation. I believe you cannot answer this question because a luna Sabbath does not work out mathmatically. That is why the question was asked in the first place. The same question can be applied to Pentecost which does not work out mathmatically with the Luna sabbath theory. Think it through David.

The rest of your post is not biblical or based on scripture so no need to comment further. Did you want to have another go at answering those questions again? If not I guess we will have to agree to disagree as I do not believe what you have presented is biblical.

Thanks for sharing your view though.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Ok let's continue from the OP...

4. If God's 4th commandment "SEVENTH DAY SABBATH" has not been lost and there is no scripture that says it has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day, what do the scriptures teach are the consequences for knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments?

Firstly the scriptures teach that God has his people in every Church *JOHN 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24.

In times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of what his truth is calls all men everywhere to believe and follow his Word *ACTS 17:30-31.

If God gives us a knowledge of his truth and we reject it in order to continue to live a life of known unrepentant sin then the scriptures teach there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

God's 10 commandments in the new covenant give us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guity before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *EXODUS 20:8-11 and if we knowingly break it when God gives us a knowledge of his truth we stand guilty before God of sin *HEBREWS 10:26-31. If we reject God's Word and continue in known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come.

God knows many people break God's 4th commandment out of ignorance to what they have been taught from the fallen Churchs that make up BAYBYLON. He is calling his people to come out of her my people and to worship him in Spirit and in truth. BABYLON the great mother of Harlots has fallen. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the bridgegroom?

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Q1. WHAT DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES AND OUR EQUIVALLENT DAY TODAY? (continued from post 3 linked)

Here is a list of words used in different languages around the world showing that the meaning of the seventh day of the Week SATURDAY is the SABBATH.

Language for Saturday 7th Day.jpg
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Q1. WHAT DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES AND OUR EQUIVALLENT DAY TODAY? (continued from post 3 linked and the previous post above)

Here is a visual representation where Saturday and Sabbath are synonymous in the primary languages spoken.
7th Day means Saturday around the World.jpg
 
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Oldmantook

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Hi OMT, nice to see you again. Yea thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I have seen a lot of these claims already and looked into many. None of which have any truth in them in regards to a change in the weekly seven day cycle. If you study these claims through all of them are not referring to God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath of God's 4th commandment which are on a conitunuous weekly cycle as dicussed earlier. What many of the references you have supplied here are referring to are in relation to annual calander changes not daily or weekly changes and also in reference to the annual sabbaths in feast days not God's seventh day weekly Sabbath which is every seventh day on a seven day weekly cycle which does not effect the calander changes. So pretty much everything you have posted here brother does not effect a seven day weekly cycle but a yearly one. The JEWS have been and are very strict in gurading God's 4th commandment which these annual calanders changes do not effect. None of these calander changes effect a continual daily weekly cycle which is unbroken.

God bless.
I'm a bit confused by your reply. The weekly calendar is determined by the month which corresponds to the year. Thus these factors all have bearing upon the weekly Sabbath.
"The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
, "Holidays," p. 410.
This statement describes the Sabbath day as formerly dependent on the lunar cycle. That is because today's Gregorian calendar is solar based. The Sabbath today (solar) as practiced by the Jews has been changed from the Sabbath observed in the past (lunar).

The partial text from an article - Why we do not follow the Jewish calendar | Set Apart People
"In order to preserve the unity of thew Jews under persecution, Hillel standardized the length of months at 29 days, 12 hours, 793 parts. Thus a month has 29 days (“haser” / defective) or 30 days (full.) It also calculates the addition of months over the course of a 19 year cycle (mahzor.) This allows for the the lunar calendar to realign with the solar years. Adar II (13th month) is added in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years of the cycle. Common years (12 months) have 353, 354, or 355 days and leap years (13 months) have 383, 384, or 385 days. The effect of these variations is the variation in the length of the months of Heshwan and Kislew. The calendar uses the 1st of Tishri to calculate the start of the new year. The day that the conjunction of the moon of Tishri happens determines the start of the new year. 4

Hillel II also decided to introduce some exceptions to his calendar. These rules make it easier for the Jewish people to keep the traditions of the Sabbath. The rabbis refer to these rules as the postponements (“dehiyyot”.) Hillel II introduced these postponements to ensure that:
  • the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippurim) should not be on Sunday or Friday
  • the seventh day of Tabernacles (Sukkot) should not be on Saturday
This was to ensure that the Day of Atonement (a fast day) is not preceded or succeeded by a Sabbath. This would extend the fast to two days if it falls on a Friday, as people would not be able to prepare food. The same reasoning with the seventh day of Sukkot, as the eighth day is a Sabbath. Thus, the purpose of these rules is to manipulate the calendar to ensure that they avoid having two Sabbaths in a row. This is made more important for them due to all the halacha that surrounds the preparation for and keeping of the Sabbath. Hillel II thus added an extra tradition to safeguard the existing traditions.

From this we can see that the calendar introduced by Hillel II in 359 C.E. was done purely for the sake of man’s convenience. It would be easier to plan the year and also make it simpler to keep the halacha of Sabbath. It is not a scriptural based calendar, but a tradition of man."
 
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I'm a bit confused by your reply. The weekly calendar is determined by the month which corresponds to the year. Thus these factors all have bearing upon the weekly Sabbath.

"The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
, "Holidays," p. 410.
This statement describes the Sabbath day as formerly dependent on the lunar cycle. That is because today's Gregorian calendar is solar based. The Sabbath today (solar) as practiced by the Jews has been changed from the Sabbath observed in the past (lunar).

The partial text from an article - Why we do not follow the Jewish calendar | Set Apart People
"In order to preserve the unity of thew Jews under persecution, Hillel standardized the length of months at 29 days, 12 hours, 793 parts. Thus a month has 29 days (“haser” / defective) or 30 days (full.) It also calculates the addition of months over the course of a 19 year cycle (mahzor.) This allows for the the lunar calendar to realign with the solar years. Adar II (13th month) is added in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years of the cycle. Common years (12 months) have 353, 354, or 355 days and leap years (13 months) have 383, 384, or 385 days. The effect of these variations is the variation in the length of the months of Heshwan and Kislew. The calendar uses the 1st of Tishri to calculate the start of the new year. The day that the conjunction of the moon of Tishri happens determines the start of the new year. 4

MATHMATICALLY THE LUNA WEEKLY SABBATH THEORY IS BIBLICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, HERE IS WHY...

God's 4th commandment is not based on a yearly or monthly cycle but on a weekly continuous seven day cycle which is every seventh day as defined in GENESIS 1:3 to GENESIS 2:1-3. Your refernces are to the annual sabbath cycles for the feast days not God's 4th commandment.

The Luna weekly Sabbath theory is proven false mathmatically false in GENESIS
The Luna sabbaths are in application to the annual sabbaths in feast days not God's 4th commmanment which is tied to weekly seven day continous cycle not a monthly or yearly cycle linked to full moons.

For example the new moon in creation was created on the 4th day of the week while God's seventh day weekly Sabbath was created on the seventh day of the week *GENESIS 1:4-18; GENESIS 2:1-3. This is a continuous weekly seven day cycle given by God at creation right? Do the maths. If the moon was created on the 4th day of creation and the Sabbath on the Seventh day of creation then it is impossible that a new moon can determine the Sabbath according to GENESIS as the Sabbath would always be three days latter after the begining of the new Moon.

As shown earlier there are luna sabbaths but these are the annual sabbaths in feast days tied to a monthly and annual calander cycle. This does not effect God's 4th Commandment seventh day Sabbath which is tied to a contineous weekly cycle which is simply every seven days. So mathmatically it is impossible according to GENESIS account of the seven day week for the seventh day weekly Sabbath to be a luna sabbath.

You can try using the same mathematics applied to the Luna weekly sabbath theory with Pentecost in Leviticus 23:15-16, we find the specific instructions for how the Feast of Weeks (also called Pentecost) is to be calculated. "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number FIFTY DAYS."

So the "7 Sabbaths", plus the "day after the last Sabbath" is to equal "50 days". Let us test both the 7 day weekly Sabbath and the Lunar sabbath against this and see which one fits:

WEEKLY 7 DAY SABBATH: "7 Sabbaths" X 7 days = 49 days. PLUS "day after last Sabbath" = 50 DAYS yep works out fine according to the scriptures.

Lets try now with the Luna seventh day sabbath theory?

LUNAR SABBATH: At least one sabbath cycle will have 9 days, so 6 sabbaths X 7 days = 42 days + 9 days for 1 sabbath PLUS "day after last Sabbath" = 52 DAYS!

So which one fits the Biblical model? The WEEKLY 7th day Sabbath.

Even if you say to support the Lunar sabbath above that the 1 cycle should be 8 days, not 9, it would still come to 51 days, NOT the 50 days that God set. The weekly 7th day Sabbath is the only one that fits. The institution of the weekly sabbath had no bearing on the moon and the moon had no bearing on the weekly sabbath. The moon was created on day four and there is no mention whatsoever that it would have any bearing on when the sabbath day would be. Instead, God simply setup a weekly seven day cycle from creation that continued. And it is this that determined the seventh day sabbath, not the cycle of the moon.

Now take a look at the following important truth concerning the sabbath day contained in the 4th commandment.

EXODUS 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'

Do you see what event God is pointing to in His 4th commandment? He is pointing back to the creation week. And He is confirming that it is this creation event from where we get the seventh day sabbath, as the weekly sabbath is a memorial of God's creation and a day that shows our allegiance to our Creator God, the one true God. And as we have already shown above, the seventh day sabbath of creation was NOT determined by the moon in a seven day weekly cycle.

Once again mathematically the weekly Luna Sabbath theory continues not to fit scripture if you consider that the first week began in Genesis 1 before the moon began shining. This settles the fact that the start of the week is not dependent on a lunar cycle.

Leviticus 23 and Daniel 9 both establish that “seven weeks” are 49 days. And that simply disproves the lunar-Sabbath idea. The phrase “seven weeks” should be 49 days by a continuous weekly cycle which agrees with these scriptures. By a lunar-solar calendar, however, it would be 51-52 days which is not biblical according to the scriptures and does not work our mathmatically.

There is nothing wrong with the Luna Calander and it is biblical with it's application to annual and monthly cycles. They determine the times and the seasons and days for the application to the annual sabbaths in the feast days but it does not determine the biblcal continuous seven day weekly cycle given by God at creation. I believe this is the problem with your application dear brother.

God bless.
 
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