Medical group endorses anti-malarial drug treatment for coronavirus patients

NightHawkeye

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Medical group endorses anti-malarial drug treatment for coronavirus patients

America’s major medical society specializing in the treatment of respiratory diseases has endorsed using hydroxychloroquine for seriously ill hospitalized coronavirus patients.
...
The medical group said evidence about the impact of hydroxychloroquine is “contradictory” but it is worth experimenting with during a public health crisis to treat very sick patients.

“We believe that in urgent situations like a pandemic, we can learn while treating by collecting real-world data,” said Dr. Kevin Wilson, chief of guidelines and documents at the American Thoracic Society.

“There are in vitro studies that suggest that hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have activity against SARS-CoV-2019, the virus that causes COVID-19,” Wilson said
.​
 

NightHawkeye

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They really did not ...
They really did.

The medical group said evidence about the impact of hydroxychloroquine is “contradictory” but it is worth experimenting with during a public health crisis to treat very sick patients.
 
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essentialsaltes

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They really did.

The medical group said evidence about the impact of hydroxychloroquine is “contradictory” but it is worth experimenting with during a public health crisis to treat very sick patients.

'Worth experimenting with' is not 'endorsing'.

b) data can be collected for interim comparisons of patients who received hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine) versus those who did not
 
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Monna

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From Wikipedia:--- Chloroquine...
.........

Side effects
Side effects include blurred vision, nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps, headache, diarrhea, swelling legs/ankles, shortness of breath, pale lips/nails/skin, muscle weakness, easy bruising/bleeding, hearing and mental problems.[15][16]

  • Unwanted/uncontrolled movements (including tongue and face twitching) [15]
  • Deafness or tinnitus.[15]
  • Nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps[16]
  • Headache.[15]
  • Mental/mood changes (such as confusion, personality changes, unusual thoughts/behavior, depression, feeling being watched, hallucinating)[15][16]
  • Signs of serious infection (such as high fever, severe chills, persistent sore throat)[15]
  • Skin itchiness, skin color changes, hair loss, and skin rashes.[16][17]
    • Chloroquine-induced itching is very common among black Africans (70%), but much less common in other races. It increases with age, and is so severe as to stop compliance with drug therapy. It is increased during malaria fever; its severity is correlated to the malaria parasite load in blood. Some evidence indicates it has a genetic basis and is related to chloroquine action with opiate receptors centrally or peripherally.[18]
  • Unpleasant metallic taste
    • This could be avoided by "taste-masked and controlled release" formulations such as multiple emulsions.[19]
  • Chloroquine retinopathy
  • Electrocardiographic changes[20]
    • This manifests itself as either conduction disturbances (bundle-branch block, atrioventricular block) or Cardiomyopathy – often with hypertrophy, restrictive physiology, and congestive heart failure. The changes may be irreversible. Only two cases have been reported requiring heart transplantation, suggesting this particular risk is very low. Electron microscopy of cardiac biopsies show pathognomonic cytoplasmic inclusion bodies.
  • Pancytopenia, aplastic anemia, reversible agranulocytosis, low blood platelets, neutropenia.[21]
Elderly
There is not enough evidence to determine whether chloroquine is safe to be given to people aged 65 and older. Since it is cleared by the kidneys, toxicity should be monitored carefully in people with poor kidney functions.[21]

Overdose
Chloroquine, in overdose, has a risk of death of about 20%.[24] It is rapidly absorbed from the gut with an onset of symptoms generally within an hour.[25] Symptoms of overdose may include sleepiness, vision changes, seizures, stopping of breathing, and heart problems such as ventricular fibrillation and low blood pressure.[24][25] Low blood potassium may also occur.[24]

Since mortality due to Covid-19 is higher among people over 70, the note above on chloroquine's toxicity is a warning for use in this pandemic. Covid-19 is especially dangerous to people who have other underlying health issues. So anyone with heart conditions note above "Electrocardiographic changes"

Note the sixth potential side effect: "Signs of serious infection (such as high fever, severe chills, persistent sore throat)" In a Covid-19 ICU patient, how would you know if the high fever, and sore throat are due to chloroquine or Covid-19? Another warning sign of Covid-19 is headache - it is also a potential side effect of chloroquine.

All of these dangers and negative side-effects are known. All of the above are referenced. (Go to the site, if you want to trace the sources.) It is understandable that the front line doctors in the Covid-19 pandemic might be reluctant to use this drug experimentally. No doubt doctors in the US would want to get patients to sign a waiver on the doctor's responsibility in the case of severe damage or death due to its use. Otherwise litigation awaits!

Either the Pres hasn't read this evidence, or he simply doesn't believe it. I'd hate to have him as my doctor.
 
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Kessa

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If a patient cannot be helped by any medical means we currently have, and is probably dying either way, I have no objections to them being given that drug. At that point, when you've exhausted all the available techniques and medications, you have nothing to lose. However, I don't think it should be handed out willy-nilly or assumed to be working until there are more studies. The article didn't sound like an endorsement of the treatment, it sounded like them saying there was no harm in trying when the patient doesn't have much of a chance anyway. Hydroxychloroquine has serious, sometimes fatal side effects including causing or exacerbating heart problems, and can mess up blood sugar. It shouldn't be given out like aspirin or used on people who have a good chance of recovery without it.
 
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Subduction Zone

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They really did.

The medical group said evidence about the impact of hydroxychloroquine is “contradictory” but it is worth experimenting with during a public health crisis to treat very sick patients.
You just confirmed my post. That is not an endorsement.
 
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grasping the after wind

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If a groups says "Go ahead and use it." Then they are endorsing using it. Now they may not be endorsing it as a treatment in terms of saying "We endorse this treatment as fully proven to be effective" but they are endorsing i.e. giving their approval, to using it . The headline is a little too easy to read as implying the second quote but the group has definitely expressed approval of using the drug without guaranteeing any particular results.
 
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essentialsaltes

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If a groups says "Go ahead and use it." Then they are endorsing using it. Now they may not be endorsing it as a treatment in terms of saying "We endorse this treatment as fully proven to be effective" but they are endorsing i.e. giving their approval, to using it ...

... under experimental conditions, among other conditions. They are, in effect, giving the go ahead to study it. Something that no one disagrees with. They are not saying 'go ahead and use it'.
 
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grasping the after wind

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... under experimental conditions, among other conditions. They are, in effect, giving the go ahead to study it. Something that no one disagrees with. They are not saying 'go ahead and use it'.

Here is what was quoted in the article.

“To prescribe hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine) to hospitalized patients with COVID-19 pneumonia if all of the following apply: a) shared decision-making is possible, b) data can be collected for interim comparisons of patients who received hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine) versus those who did not, c) the illness is sufficiently severe to warrant investigational therapy, and d) the drug is not in short supply,” the Thoracic Society said.

Sounds like go ahead and use it to me and make sure you also do these things while you are at it. It doesn't sound like they are saying 'only use it in a clinical study" but rather "gather the data when you use it." . And it sure doesn't sound like "no don't use it until we have done all the clinical studies because we don't know what will happen." .
 
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sfs

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Sounds like go ahead and use it to me and make sure you also do these things while you are at it. It doesn't sound like they are saying 'only use it in a clinical study" but rather "gather the data when you use it." .
It's quite clear: it's advocating investigational therapy -- learning while using it in case it works. Who has suggested that doctors shouldn't be doing this?
 
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essentialsaltes

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Here is what was quoted in the article.

“To prescribe hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine) to hospitalized patients with COVID-19 pneumonia if all of the following apply: a) shared decision-making is possible, b) data can be collected for interim comparisons of patients who received hydroxychloroquine (or chloroquine) versus those who did not, c) the illness is sufficiently severe to warrant investigational therapy, and d) the drug is not in short supply,” the Thoracic Society said.

Sounds like go ahead and use it to me and make sure you also do these things while you are at it. It doesn't sound like they are saying 'only use it in a clinical study" but rather "gather the data when you use it."

It also importantly asks them to gather data when they don't use it. It is meant to be a controlled study.

They also clearly associate some risk to this usage -- it is only to be used in severe cases that 'warrant investigational therapy'. It is an investigation, not carte blanche approval.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I think that we have a rather strong case of black and white thinking here.

This drug has not been banned, therefore its consumption is mandatory.

everything_not_forbidden_is_compulsory_t_shirt-rfd81f59f15224bf083918d140b7a0350_k2grj_307.jpg
 
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If a patient cannot be helped by any medical means we currently have, and is probably dying either way, I have no objections to them being given that drug. At that point, when you've exhausted all the available techniques and medications, you have nothing to lose. However, I don't think it should be handed out willy-nilly or assumed to be working until there are more studies. The article didn't sound like an endorsement of the treatment, it sounded like them saying there was no harm in trying when the patient doesn't have much of a chance anyway. Hydroxychloroquine has serious, sometimes fatal side effects including causing or exacerbating heart problems, and can mess up blood sugar. It shouldn't be given out like aspirin or used on people who have a good chance of recovery without it.

I agree. As I mentioned in one of the other threads, I think most people who had a severe case of COVID-19 would be willing to try an HCQ+ regime, but there is no guarantee of success, and nobody should have such an illusion. It doesn't make sense for everyone to try the treatment since most reactions are pretty mild. On the other hand, it probably does make sense to give it a try when the symptoms become more serious.
 
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