Is this injustice?

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Listen. man, I can't help you. I've seen this before many times here, and when people get into this mode they just refuse to see.

I did my best to be as patient as I could be here because I know you have to want to believe as you do for some very strong reason, because you don't seem like the type to just believe it because you've been duped by those who preach it.

I personally believe there is something, and it could be a few things, in the lives of some that causes them to hold so tightly to this in spite of clear problems with the belief. Though I won't go into my guesses on what those reasons are, I will say, they aren't all bad, but still, the truth is a must for all of us, whether we like it or not.

I know this will bring on the reply/thought that you believe it because the bible says it, so I think it best to end this on the note we just disagree whole heartedly, as we have done just about all we can to convince the other, and it's just not happening.

So instead of engaging in a discussion, you make an ad hom post.

very well, then.

BBAS 64 · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You probably don’t know it, but James was quoting Proverbs which is not limited to believers but how God is to all men. This describes how God is period. There’s no reference to God granting grace to believing humble but no grace to humble atheists (if there are any.)

Good Day, Dorothy

Yes I do know we see the same quote in Peter as well.. different context, and both applications are true to the written text in proverbs.

Um.. I disagree ( sure that does not surprise you).

The written text of Proverbs is part of the Books given by God to God's chosen (OC) people the Jews, and for them (Jews) and not for the Egyptians (historical context). Now I know the fact that God has the right and the freedom as God to choose His own people to covenant with may cause you some stress and confusion.

In both the OC and the NC God chooses he own...

We see in James, he is writing to his Brothers which refers consistently in NT writings as believers.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds.

In Him,

Bill

Kenny'sID · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
So instead of engaging in a discussion, you make an ad hom post.

very well, then.

I thought you were better than that, but as I mentioned, I do understand.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
I thought you were better than that, but as I mentioned, I do understand.

Better than what? I just want to discuss the text. I don’t want to discuss you, or me, or what makes us tick. This is General Theology after all.

I did find your questions and answered them, btw.

Kenny'sID · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
Better than what? I just want to discuss the text. I don’t want to discuss you, or me, or what makes us tick. This is General Theology after all.

I did find your questions and answered them, btw.

Good day.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Good day.

I’m doing better than I deserve, so it definitely is.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
”Flipped out” probably wasn’t the best descriptor. However, he did go with the ad hominems when I asked for clarification.

Your words were insulting pure.

Also, your understanding of grace that you posted didn’t come from scripture. It was your feelings. That was accurate.

Please name the feelings I had. I have learned many things in my
life and learning what grace is was one of them. You just want to degrade information you do not have and so you call understanding “feelings” but I’m willing to bet you can’t name a single feeling associated with my understanding.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
Listen. man, I can't help you. I've seen this before many times here, and when people get into this mode they just refuse to see.

I did my best to be as patient as I could be here because I know you have to want to believe as you do for some very strong reason, because you don't seem like the type to just believe it because you've been duped by those who preach it.

I personally believe there is something, and it could be a few things, in the lives of some that causes them to hold so tightly to this in spite of clear problems with the belief. Though I won't go into my guesses on what those reasons are, I will say, they aren't all bad, but still, the truth is a must for all of us, whether we like it or not.

I know this will bring on the reply/thought that you believe it because the bible says it, so I think it best to end this on the note we just disagree whole heartedly, as we have done just about all we can to convince the other, and it's just not happening.

I can tell you exactly what’s at the root of this. I’ve seen it countless times. But I’d only say it privately. Wisdom is not given publicly.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Dorothy

I asked...

I will be willing to deal with any questions about the text as written, but I would really like your understanding of what the text says. I have posted my understanding of the text many times in answering your questions, I really would like you to give me your understanding of the text.

Would you be willing to do that?

You had started to do that when you said "God may perhaps grant them repentance " means they can make a choice..

Other than the clear fact that the text does not in any way shape or form use words that even come close to convening such an idea... for the sake of discussion I will go with it.

My unanswered question on your understanding is that if God may not then are they unable to choose?

Would you be so kind as to help me understand what you believe the written text here to be saying.

Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In Him,

Bill

Bill, you’ll need to let the Bible interpret the Bible. I don’t know if you’re like the others who hold to
your theology, but those I’ve met insist on the few verses that can be made to support their position as long as one doesn’t read what else that same author wrote. Are you willing to consider letting the Bible interpret itself searching all the scriptures to see if these things be so?

Jesus never held God responsible for who repented. The verse you like doesn’t even say He is but lays on the believer to behave in such a way that repentance “is granted.” Who is responsible in that verse? Certainly not God but the believer. Do you accept that? I think your theology will refuse that obvious problem with your interpretation.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Bill,

You’re better than most of your persuasion and I like you. I can tell you the matter of salvation is complex. Read the parable if the different kinds of dirt if you think it’s simple.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Your words were insulting pure.

Please name the feelings I had. I have learned many things in my
life and learning what grace is was one of them. You just want to degrade information you do not have and so you call understanding “feelings” but I’m willing to bet you can’t name a single feeling associated with my understanding.

My apologies. You didn’t say feelings. You were clear that your understanding of grace was by experience. Which still is subjective.

I will try to be more accurate in the future.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Bill, you’ll need to let the Bible interpret the Bible. I don’t know if you’re like the others who hold to
your theology, but those I’ve met insist on the few verses that can be made to support their position as long as one doesn’t read what else that same author wrote. Are you willing to consider letting the Bible interpret itself searching all the scriptures to see if these things be so?

Jesus never held God responsible for who repented. The verse you like doesn’t even say He is but lays on the believer to behave in such a way that repentance “is granted.” Who is responsible in that verse? Certainly not God but the believer. Do you accept that? I think your theology will refuse that obvious problem with your interpretation.

The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
— 2 Timothy 2:24-26

I’m not following you. Paul says that the repentance granted by God leads to knowledge of the truth. You seem to be saying the opposite. Can you explain yourself a bit more clearly?

thanks.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
My apologies. You didn’t say feelings. You were clear that your understanding of grace was by experience. Which still is subjective.

I will try to be more accurate in the future.

If you discredit experience as a means by which God teaches us truth, you’ll have to discredit a lot of the Bible. They wrote of their experiences with God. Jesus actually learned through things he suffered. Is that just subjective and therefore invalid for you?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
— 2 Timothy 2:24-26

I’m not following you. Paul says that the repentance granted by God leads to knowledge of the truth. You seem to be saying the opposite. Can you explain yourself a bit more clearly?

thanks.

In that verse it’s dependent on the behavior of the believer.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
If you discredit experience as a means by which God teaches us truth, you’ll have to discredit a lot of the Bible. They wrote of their experiences with God. Jesus actually learned through things he suffered. Is that just subjective and therefore invalid for you?

I don’t have to discredit the Bible since it’s the inspired word of God. I can study it and exegete it. I can’t study experiences and exegete them. Not even my own except as laid out in scripture.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Dorothy

Yes I do know we see the same quote in Peter as well.. different context, and both applications are true to the written text in proverbs.

Um.. I disagree ( sure that does not surprise you).

The written text of Proverbs is part of the Books given by God to God's chosen (OC) people the Jews, and for them (Jews) and not for the Egyptians (historical context). Now I know the fact that God has the right and the freedom as God to choose His own people to covenant with may cause you some stress and confusion.

In both the OC and the NC God chooses he own...

We see in James, he is writing to his Brothers which refers consistently in NT writings as believers.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds.

In Him,

Bill

Since you think God in character is different at different times, the basis for understanding Him is removed. For the record, I know He’s the same yesterday, today and forever. He shows mercy on whom He shows mercy and those are the merciful...always.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
In that verse it’s dependent on the behavior of the believer.

Where does it say that? Just taking it at face value, repentance leads to knowledge of truth.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
I don’t have to discredit the Bible since it’s the inspired word of God. I can study it and exegete it. I can’t study experiences and exegete them. Not even my own except as laid out in scripture.

You discredit experience as a source of learning and that’s the main way they learned about the ways of God.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
Where does it say that? Just taking it at face value, repentance leads to knowledge of truth.

The verse tells the believer how to behave so that others might repent.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You discredit experience as a source of learning and that’s the main way they learned about the ways of God.

And God saw fit to have men write it down for us. He gave us a fixed point of reference.

Is this injustice?

Psalm 144:1

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