Is this injustice?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
Isn’t that what you are doing? You’ve treated me rudely throughout. You seem sure of your theological position.

Where was I rude? Anyone who reads the Bible to learn truth and rejects nothing is unafraid of any verse.

And my assurance isn’t threatened because I trust what God says in His word.

It is because some of it you reject and get insulting when threatened. That’s a tell tale sign.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
I remember you asking questions, but you kinda flipped out when I asked for qualifications of your post. But go ahead and ask yourself why you can’t answer them.

The personal attack..how rude!

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Where was I rude? Anyone who reads the Bible to learn truth and rejects nothing is unafraid if any verse.

It is because some of it you reject.

I have assurance because I reject some of God’s word? What am I rejecting that leads me to believe that He died in my place, took the punishment for my sins, and that I’m justified by faith?

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
The personal attack..how rude!

I can probably go back and find it if you’d like.

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
The personal attack..how rude!

Here it is.

Kenny'sID said:
Says you. No new arguments here, just the same verse I always post along with the same questions.

In the following scripture, does a self proclaimed born again Christian merit heaven if they live and evil life?

And same scenario, but do they merit heaven if they live a good life?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Hammster said:
If this is your definitive verse, define good and evil as is meant here.

Kenny'sID said:
To be expected.

You are clearly dodging the question, you can easily look the words up if you "truly" don't understand what they mean.

They've only been in our vocabulary since we were children.

Answer the questions or not, but in a sense, you already did.

Hammster said:
You posted a verse, with no context. I think it’s reasonable to ask for clarification. It’s better than assuming an understanding.

If you’d rather go ad hominem instead of having a discussion, that’s on you.

Kenny'sID said:
Again, as expected.

The scripture is simple and straightforward, as are the questions.

I tried to make it a reasonable discussion.

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
In the following scripture, does a self proclaimed born again Christian merit heaven if they live and evil life?

And same scenario, but do they merit heaven if they live a good life?

One, born again Christian won't lead an evil life. And he doesn’t merit heaven.

Two, a born again Christian who leads a good life doesn’t merit heaven.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
I have assurance because I reject some of God’s word? What am I rejecting that leads me to believe that He died in my place, took the punishment for my sins, and that I’m justified by faith?

You remind me of the religious men who attacked Jesus for disrupting their assurance that they were saved by virtue of their birth long ago.

From experience I’ve learned (not feelings) there are two kinds of believers in your camp. Those who so stubbornly hold their assurance of heaven they’re willing to attack (centuries ago even kill) those who threaten that with scripture and those for whom this character outcome is unappealing and so jettisone thinking when it comes to matters of God. There is really not much point in debating these two. The former attack personally and the latter just retreat to they don’t know but just believe. Neither come to love God with their thinking.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
One, born again Christian won't lead an evil life. And he doesn’t merit heaven.

Ive known those who
claim assurance of heaven whose deeds are evil. They don’t leave the church either so they don’t fit into the definition of those who really aren’t.

Two, a born again Christian who leads a good life doesn’t merit heaven.

With this logic, one can see why those who assure themselves they’re born again see no reason why they should sacrifice anything to do good. Hence the theology produces predictable fruit.

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You remind me of the religious men who attacked Jesus for disrupting their assurance that they were saved by virtue of their birth long ago.

From experience I’ve learned (not feelings) there are two kinds of believers in your camp. Those who do stubbornly hold their assurance of heaven they’re willing to attack (centuries ago even kill) those who threaten that with scripture and those for whom this character outcome is unappealing and so jettisone thinking when it comes to matters of God. There is really not much point in debating these two. The former attack personally and the latter just retreat to they don’t know but just believe. Neither come to love God with their thinking.

I’m sorry that you have no assurance. It would be scary if I thought my salvation depended on something I had to do. I’d never know if I was doing enough.

Thanks be to God that there’s no condemnation for those in Christ. Thanks be to God that we are made righteous by faith. Thanks be to God that I’m no longer a slave to sin, but rather a slave to righteousness. Thanks be to God that I have a Good Shepherd that won’t let me stray. Thanks be to God that I have a Father that loves and disciplines me. Thanks be to God that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can break that seal. Thanks be to God that Jesus intercedes on my behalf. Thanks be to God that He has promised to transform me to the image of His Son. Thanks be to God that I can trust His promises.

Hammster · Apr 7, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Ive known those who
claim assurance of heaven whose deeds are evil. They don’t leave the church either so they don’t fit into the definition of those who really aren’t.

With this logic, one can see why those who assure themselves they’re born again see no reason why they should sacrifice anything to do good. Hence the theology produces predictable fruit.

I wasn’t talking about people who claimed to be born again.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
I’m sorry that you have no assurance. It would be scary if I thought my salvation depended on something I had to do. I’d never know if I was doing enough.

Ah, let me assure you I am very much assured of Heaven and Ive never worked for it a day after I started following Jesus. So be at peace.

My assurance is not a legal one though. I don’t think God has to let me in because of a theological point I fulfilled or He chose me and rejected others for no just reason.

Thanks be to God that there’s no condemnation for those in Christ. Thanks be to God that we are made righteous by faith. Thanks be to God that I’m no longer a slave to sin, but rather a slave to righteousness. Thanks be to God that I have a Good Shepherd that won’t let me stray. Thanks be to God that I have a Father that loves and disciplines me. Thanks be to God that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and nothing can break that seal. Thanks be to God that Jesus intercedes on my behalf. Thanks be to God that He has promised to transform me to the image of His Son. Thanks be to God that I can trust His promises.

You claim all of that with a confidence in the legal assurance. You assume He promises you that you are of good character, etc, no matter how you actually behave. One can see why you rejoice in believing all this great stuff of yourself. It’s an appealing theology.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
I wasn’t talking about people who claimed to be born again.

I was. And the description fits some who claim to be born again perfectly.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2020

Hammster said:
Here it is.

You’re joking right? You tell a poster they flipped out (which is not about their argument) and when I point out that this is rude, you say saying that is rude. I guess it’s ok with you if you call people flipping out rude but if I say your post was rude, that’s rude.

This is the kind of mental blindness one often sees in your theology.

I tried to make it a reasonable discussion.

By saying my UNDERSTANDING is just my feelings? By telling a poster they “flip out?” You did not make it a reasonable discussion. You are fooling yourself about yourself.

Beanieboy · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
(Borrowed)

Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?

Define "punishes".

I think sinning against another has it's own punishment. Liars are no longer believed. Adultery may end your marriage.

Or are you saying 5 go to heaven and 5 go to hell?
All have sin. None deserve heaven.
But to choose to love your neighbor and act in love towards all people makes one act in sin much less, while someone who cares only for themselves does not.

I keep being shown the sheep and goats during this virus, and being told, "when this has passed, all that will be remembered is how we treated each other.

I believe one literally chooses not to go to heaven. It requires humility, forgiveness of others, loving your neighbor, and basically rising above your human nature to the divine nature you were created by God

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
Ah, let me assure you I am very much assured of Heaven and Ive never worked for it a day after I started following Jesus. So be at peace.

My assurance is not a legal one though. I don’t think God has to let me in because of a theological point I fulfilled or He chose me and rejected others for no just reason.

You claim all of that with a confidence in the legal assurance. You assume He promises you that you are of good character, etc, no matter how you actually behave. One can see why you rejoice in believing all this great stuff of yourself. It’s an appealing theology.

Everything I posted is a promise in scripture. So I’m not sure what you mean by “legal assurance”. Perhaps you can explain.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
I was. And the description fits some who claim to be born again perfectly.

But I wasn’t. So if you want to respond to his questions in your way, you are free to do so.

Hammster · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You’re joking right? You tell a posted they flipped out (which is not about their argument) and when I point out that this is rude, you say saying that is rude. I guess it’s ok with you if you call people flipping out and rude but if I say your post was rude, that’s rude.

This is the kind of mental blindness one often sees in your theology.
By saying my UNDERSTANDING is just my feelings? By telling a poster they “flip out?” You did not make it a reasonable discussion. You are fooling yourself about yourself.

”Flipped out” probably wasn’t the best descriptor. However, he did go with the ad hominems when I asked for clarification.

Also, your understanding of grace that you posted didn’t come from scripture. It was your feelings. That was accurate.

Hawkins · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
(Borrowed)

Suppose 10 people sin and sin equally. Suppose God punishes five of them, and is merciful to the other five.

Is this injustice?

We humans can't judge from that scenario. God's purpose on earth is to save souls instead of punishing people. So His punishment may come for a purpose serving the goal of saving them or others. He punished the 5 five possibly because,
1) they have the ability to rethink about their deeds after the punishment then repent
2) the punishment warned those surrounding them to repent for their own deeds

and possibly more reasons behind, we humans can't possibly reason with the same mind as God's. We thus can't come to the conclusion that God is unjust with the provided scenario.

BBAS 64 · Apr 8, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You still don’t know what God looks for in a man in order to act in His life.

Jesus, by the way, didn’t preach to God pleading with Him to grant his listeners repentance. He preached to men to repent never mentioning they might be lucky (is that your reason) and God might grant them repentance.

And it’s a bummer, I guess, God stubbornly refuses to grant some repentance. Or how do you explain God refusing to grant some repentance?

Good Day, Dorothy

I asked...

I am letting the text say what the text says in it's own context.

How do you understand the text?

Who does the granting?
What is granted?

Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In Him,

Bill

I will be willing to deal with any questions about the text as written, but I would really like your understanding of what the text says. I have posted my understanding of the text many times in answering your questions, I really would like you to give me your understanding of the text.

Would you be willing to do that?

You had started to do that when you said "God may perhaps grant them repentance " means they can make a choice..

Other than the clear fact that the text does not in any way shape or form use words that even come close to convening such an idea... for the sake of discussion I will go with it.

My unanswered question on your understanding is that if God may not then are they unable to choose?

Would you be so kind as to help me understand what you believe the written text here to be saying.

Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

In Him,

Bill

Kenny'sID · Apr 8, 2020

Hammster said:
Here it is.

I tried to make it a reasonable discussion.

Listen. man, I can't help you. I've seen this before many times here, and when people get into this mode they just refuse to see.

I did my best to be as patient as I could be here because I know you have to want to believe as you do for some very strong reason, because you don't seem like the type to just believe it because you've been duped by those who preach it.

I personally believe there is something, and it could be a few things, in the lives of some that causes them to hold so tightly to this in spite of clear problems with the belief. Though I won't go into my guesses on what those reasons are, I will say, they aren't all bad, but still, the truth is a must for all of us, whether we like it or not.

I know this will bring on the reply/thought that you believe it because the bible says it, so I think it best to end this on the note we just disagree whole heartedly, as we have done just about all we can to convince the other, and it's just not happening.

Is this injustice?

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