Was Ceremonial Law Abolished?

not under law · Apr 4, 2020

Got to read the whole segment, to understand what is being written. Plucking one verse out here and there leads to error when it is not applied to relating verses

not under law · Apr 4, 2020

Lets continue and lets remember it is part of one whole chapter:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 – he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

In the above Paul states righteousness apart from the law has been revealed, this righteousness is faith in Christ. Boasting is excluded, why? for you are justified apart from works of the law. What would some of Paul's readers have thought? If we are righteous apart from law and have no justification of works of the law we can act however we like surely. So to correct those under such a false impression Paul wrote:
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

A spiritual message that states die to righteousness of obeying the law and live by righteousness of faith in Christ will result in obedience, will never be understood by those who rely on the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic to learn

not under law · Apr 4, 2020

So to recap, rom ch3
Jew and Gentile alike are all(all means all) under the power of sin. There is no one(no one) righteous not even one. Therefore whatever the law says it says to those under the law that the whole world may be accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous by works of the law/obeying the law, rather through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now the righteousness of God has come apart from law, a righteousness of faith in Christ. What is the result of this? What is the result of having righteousness of faith in Christ rather than righteousness of obeying the law?
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all, rather we uphold the law.
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

A spiritual message cannot be understood through an academic exercise, it will lead to error. The Holy Spirit is the guide who leads into truth

Hawkins · Apr 8, 2020

HARK! said:
I go one better. I'm working on a thread on this subject. I'll give you all of my notes. They're a little disorganized; and they're not comprehensive; but I have collected quite a bit of info on this subject. Enjoy!

Ezekiel 43:

19 And you have given unto the priests, the Levites, who [are] of the seed of Zadok--who are near unto Me, an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh, to serve Me--a calf from the herd, for a sin-offering." 20 And you have taken of its blood, and have put it on its four horns, and on the four corners of its border, and on the border round about, and have cleansed it, and purified it." 21 And you have taken the bullock of the sin-offering, and have burnt it in the appointed place of the house at the outside of the sanctuary." 22 And on the second day you do bring near a kid of the goats, a perfect one, for a sin-offering, and they have cleansed the altar, as they cleansed [it] for the bullock." 23 In your finishing cleansing, you do bring near a calf, a son of the herd, a perfect one, and a ram out of the flock, a perfect one." 24 And you have brought them near before Yahweh, and the priests have cast upon them salt, and have caused them to go up, a burnt-offering to Yahweh." 25 Seven days you do prepare a goat for a sin-offering daily, and a bullock, a son of the herd, and a ram out of the flock, perfect ones, do they prepare." 26 Seven days they purify the altar, and have cleansed it, and filled their hand." 27 And the days are completed, and it has come to pass on the eighth day, and henceforth, the priests prepare on the altar your burnt-offerings and your peace-offerings, and I have accepted you--an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh.'"

Ezekiel 45

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Zch 14:20
In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh. And the pots in the house of Yahweh will be like the sprinkling bowls before the altar.

(CLV) Zch 14:21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing will come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day.

(CLV) Mal 3:3
And He will sit like a refiner and a cleanser of silver. And He will cleanse the sons of Levi, and purify them like gold and like silver. And they will come to be for Yahweh, bringing close the approach present in righteousness.

(CLV) Mal 3:4
Then the approach present of Judah and Jerusalem will be congenial to Yahweh as in the days of the eon, and as in former years.
==========
(CLV) Jl 1:9
The approach present and the libation are cut off from the house of Yahweh; The priests, ministers of Yahweh's altar, mourn.

(CLV) Jl 1:13
Gird sackcloth, and wail, priests! Howl, ministers of the altar! Come! Lodge in sackcloth, ministers of my Elohim; For the approach present and the libation are withheld from the house of your Elohim.

(CLV) Ho 3:4
For many days shall the sons of Israel dwell without king and without chief official, And without sacrifice and without altar, And without ephod or Urim and Thummim.

(CLV) Ho 3:5
Afterward the sons of Israel shall return, And they will seek Yahweh their Elohim, and David their king; They will come in awe to Yahweh and to His goodness in the latter days.

(CLV) Dn 9:25
Now you should know and be intelligent: From the going forth of the word to cause a return and to rebuild Jerusalem from then until Messiah the Governor is seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens. It shall return and will be rebuilt, square and salient, even in the constraint of the times.

(CLV) Dn 9:26
After the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off, and there will be no adjudication for Him. The city and the holy place shall be laid in ruins with the other governor's coming; then its end is by an overflowing, and until the end of the war, desolations will be decided.

(CLV) Dn 9:27
Then he will be master of a covenant with many for one seven; at half of the seven, he shall cause to cease the sacrifice and the approach present; on a wing of the sanctuary shall be desolating abominations. Until the conclusion of the era the decided conclusion shall be poured forth on the desolation.

(CLV) Mt 24:1
And, coming out, Jesus went from the sanctuary. And His disciples approached to exhibit to Him the buildings of the sanctuary.

(CLV) Mt 24:2
Yet He, answering, said to them, "Are you not observing all these? Verily, I am saying to you, Under no circumstances may a stone here be left on a stone, which shall not be demolished."

(CLV) Mt 24:3
Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?"

(CLV) Mt 24:4
And, answering, Jesus said to them, "Beware that no one should be deceiving you.

(CLV) Mt 24:5
For many shall be coming in My name, saying, `I am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.

(CLV) Mt 24:6
Yet you shall be about to be hearing battles, and tidings of battles. See that you are not alarmed, for it must be occurring; but not as yet is the consummation.

(CLV) Re 5:9
And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to be taking the scroll and to open its seals, For Thou wast slain and dost buy us for God by Thy blood. Out of every tribe and language and people and nation.

(CLV) Re 5:10
Thou dost also make them a kingdom and a priesthood for our God, And they shall be reigning on the earth."

(CLV) Re 1:6
and makes us a kingdom and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and might for the eons of the eons! Amen!

(CLV) Ezk 44:23
They shall direct My people to distinguish between the holy and the profane, and they shall inform them the difference between the unclean and the clean.

(CLV) Ezk 44:24
In a controversy it is they who shall officiate in judgment; in accord with My ordinances, thus they will judge it; My laws and My statutes shall they observe at all My appointed times, and My sabbaths shall they hallow.

(CLV) Zch 8:23
Thus says Yahweh of hosts: In those days ten men from all the languages of the nations shall take fast hold, and they will take fast hold of the hem of a man, a Jew, saying, Let us go with you, for we hear that Elohim is with you.

(CLV) Zch 14:16
And it will come to be that everyone left of all the nations coming against Jerusalem, they will also go up, as often as year by year, to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to celebrate the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:17
And it will come, whoever shall not go up from the families of the earth, to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then the downpour shall not come on them.

(CLV) Zch 14:18
And if a family of Egypt shall not go up, and will not come, then it will not be on them; there shall come the stroke with which Yahweh shall strike the nations which will not go up to celebrate »the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:19
This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations which will not go up to celebrate the festival of booths.

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

====================

In a controversy it is they who shall officiate in judgment; in accord with My ordinances, thus they will judge it; My laws and My statutes shall they observe at all My appointed times, and My sabbaths shall they hallow.

(CLV) Ezk 44:23
They shall direct My people to distinguish between the holy and the profane, and they shall inform them the difference between the unclean and the clean.

(CLV) Ezk 44:24
In a controversy it is they who shall officiate in judgment; in accord with My ordinances, thus they will judge it; My laws and My statutes shall they observe at all My appointed times, and My sabbaths shall they hallow.

(CLV) Ezk 44:29
The approach present, the sin offering and the guilt offering, they shall eat them, and every devoted thing in Israel shall become theirs.

(CLV) Ezk 44:30
The first of all the firstfruits of all, and every heave offering of all, from all your heave offerings, it shall become the priests'. And the first of your coarse meal you shall give to the priest ›that a blessing may rest- ›on your house.

(CLV) Ezk 46:6
On the day of the new moon it will be a flawless bull calf of the herd and six he-lambs and a ram; they shall be flawless.

(CLV) Zch 8:23
Thus says Yahweh of hosts: In those days ten men from all the languages of the nations shall take fast hold, and they will take fast hold of the hem of a man, a Jew, saying-, Let us go with you, for we hear that Elohim is with you.

(CLV) Zch 14:16
And it will come to be that everyone left of all the nations coming against Jerusalem, they will also go up, as often as year by year, to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, and to celebrate »the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:17
And it will come, whoever shall not go up from the families of the earth, to Jerusalem to worship › the King, Yahweh of hosts, then the downpour shall not come on them.

(CLV) Zch 14:18
And if a family of Egypt shall not go up, and will not come, then it will not be on them; there shall come the stroke with which Yahweh shall strike the nations which will not go up to celebrate »the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:19
This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations which will not go up to celebrate the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:20
In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh. And the pots in the house of Yahweh will be like the sprinkling bowls before the altar.

(CLV) Zch 14:21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing will come and take of them and cook in them. And not longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day.

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

(CLV) Isa 66:21
And also I shall take some from them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh;

(CLV) Isa 66:22
For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I shall make shall stand before Me, averring is Yahweh, So your seed and your name shall stand.

(CLV) Isa 66:23
And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh.

(CLV) Re 20:6
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.

(CLV) Zch 14:19
This shall be the sin of Egypt, and the sin of all the nations which will not go up to celebrate the festival of booths.

(CLV) Zch 14:21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing will come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there bbe a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in •that day.

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Ezk 45:17
Yet on the prince's part, he shall be obliged for the ascent offerings and the approach present and the libation on the festivals and new moons and sabbaths and on all the appointed assemblies of the house of Israel. He shall provide the sin offering, the approach present, the ascent offering and the peace offerings to make a propitiatory shelter on behalf of the house of Israel.

Then you need to explain how those quotes in support of your claim about the priests that "making sacrifices in the Kingdom to come". As I failed to see how they are related.

SwordmanJr · Apr 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

I found it interesting that you conveniently left out verse 25, which says:

[Act 21:25 KJV] 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The verses you did quote stipulate that those men had a VOW upon them for that observance. We are indeed commanded to fulfill our vows.

Did YOU make a vow to live the Law?

As to verse 25, was that an oversight, or intentional? I ask because the context of those passages is in reference to "the Law of Moses," as was addressed by Peter and by James.

Jr

SwordmanJr · Apr 8, 2020

In answer to the OP question, no. Not one jot nor tittle was ever abolished from the Law, for the Law is a singular entity that will remain until the very end. The Law is the accuser and condemnation of all those who reject Yeshua, and are therefore not born again.

Jr

HARK! · Apr 8, 2020

SwordmanJr said:
I found it interesting that you conveniently left out verse 25, which says:

[Act 21:25 KJV] 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Conveniently it has weak application to the question. I wasn't talking about Pagan ceremonies, Winter Solstice, Ishtar, SUNday worship, and the like.

SwordmanJr said:
The verses you did quote stipulate that those men had a VOW upon them for that observance. We are indeed commanded to fulfill our vows.

Are you familiar with the vow? Paul took that vow too. It's voluntary to take the vow; but binding to keep it, just like any covenant with YHWH.

SwordmanJr said:
Did YOU make a vow to live the Law?

Yes, Baptism sealed it. Haven't you been Baptized yet?

SwordmanJr said:
As to verse 25, was that an oversight, or intentional? I ask because the context of those passages is in reference to "the Law of Moses," as was addressed by Peter and by James.

I already answered this in response to your snide opening remark.

HARK! · Apr 8, 2020

SwordmanJr said:
In answer to the OP question, no. Not one jot nor tittle was ever abolished from the Law, for the Law is a singular entity that will remain until the very end. The Law is the accuser and condemnation of all those who reject Yeshua, and are therefore not born again.

Jr

(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.

==================================================
THE WAY
==================================================

(CLV) Ex 18:20
You will warn them with the statutes and the laws and make known to them the way in which they shall go and the deeds which they shall do.

(CLV) Dt 10:12
And now, Israel, what is Yahweh your Elohim asking of you, save to fear Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love Him and to serve Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul,

(CLV) Jos 22:5
But observe meticulously to keep the instruction and the law that M woses the servant of Yahweh enjoined on you: to love Yahweh your Elohim and to walk in all His ways, to observe His instructions, to cling to Him and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) 1Ki 2:3
You will keep the charge of Yahweh your Elohim to walk in His ways, to observe His statutes and His instructions, His ordinances and His testimonies as written in the law of Moses, so that you may act intelligently in all that you do and everywhere that you turn around,

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Mal 2:8
Yet you withdraw from the way. You cause many to stumble at the law. You ruin the covenant of Levi, says Yahweh of hosts.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

==================================================
THE TRUTH
==================================================

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

(CLV) Mal 2:6
The law of truth, it came to be in his mouth, and iniquity, it was not found on his lips. In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, and turned many back from depravity.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ro 2:20
a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.

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THE LIFE
==================================================

(CLV) Jb 33:30
To restore his soul from the pit, To enlighten him with the light of the living.

(CLV) Ps 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light shall we see light.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life

===============================================
THE LIGHT
==================================================

(CLV) Jn 8:12
Again, then, Jesus speaks to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world. He who is following Me should under no circumstances be walking in darkness, but will be having the light of life."

(CLV) Jb 24:13
They are among those revolting against the light; They neither recognize its ways Nor dwell in its tracks.

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

(CLV) Pr 6:23
For instruction is a lamp, and law is a light, And the reproofs of admonition are the way to life,

(CLV) Isa 51:4
Attend to Me, My people, And, My folk, give ear to Me! For a law shall go forth from Me, And My judgment for a light of the peoples.

(CLV) 2Co 6:14
Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

(CLV) 1Jn 1:7
Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.

==================================================
THE WORD
===============================================

(CLV) Jn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

(CLV) Jn 8:31
Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,

(CLV) Jn 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."

(CLV) Ps 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet, And a light to my tracks.

Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.

Hallelu YAH!

HARK! · Apr 8, 2020

Hawkins said:
Then you need to explain how those quotes in support of your claim about the priests that "making sacrifices in the Kingdom to come". As I failed to see how they are related.

The scripture speaks for itself in my understanding. I'm not sure how to better explain what is clearly written.

Here's one man's commentary on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says; but perhaps it will help you get a basic understanding:

During the millennial kingdom, will there be animal sacrifices?
Though it may sound strange, the Bible does indicate that animal sacrifices will take place during the millennial kingdom. Ezekiel 43—46 offers the most developed prophecies regarding these practices as it deals with the Jewish temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom and what takes place in it. Specifically, the line of Zadok will offer sacrifices (44:15). Specific animal sacrifices are described in chapters 45—46 and include rams, lambs, and bulls.

More: During the millennial kingdom, will there be animal sacrifices?

SwordmanJr · Apr 8, 2020

HARK! said:
Conveniently it has weak application to the question. I wasn't talking about Pagan ceremonies, Winter Solstice, Ishtar, SUNday worship, and the like.

I wasn't talking about those other things either that you mentioned. That verse, in the context of that section of scripture, clearly is addressing the Law of Moses, is it not?

Are you familiar with the vow? Paul took that vow too. It's voluntary to take the vow; but binding to keep it, just like any covenant with YHWH.

I said that very thing, in that vows are binding. Yes.

Yes, Baptism sealed it. Haven't you been Baptized yet?

You will have to explain that one. Are you saying that you vowed to live the Law of Moses when baptized?

Jr

SwordmanJr · Apr 8, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Jn 14:6
Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me.....

Yes, you did provide quotes in a long list of disjointed, out of context verses in isolation.

How do those verses apply to us today, given what we're told in the following context?

[Act 15:5, 7, 9-11, 13, 19-20, 23-24 KJV] 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. ... 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. ... 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. ... 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: ... 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. ... 23 And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Generally speaking, some of my Hebrew Roots friends enjoy throwing in constraining, topical terms into the mix to try and limit the scope of the apostle's words to the Gentiles, such as claiming that they were only talking about wearing garments woven with more than one type of fiber, etc., etc. Such parlor tricks don't work when we read those verses in the CONTEXTUAL framework within which they rest.

I'm assuming you're more honest than they, for they do enjoy trying to wear down the discussion with all their cheap pot-shots of disjointed verses they love throwing around with total abandon.

What say you?

Jr

HARK! · Apr 8, 2020

SwordmanJr said:
I wasn't talking about those other things either that you mentioned. That verse, in the context of that section of scripture, clearly is addressing the Law of Moses. Peter and James were addressing that very central item as the theme.

They were addressing babes in need of milk. They were addressing the bare minimum to even share table fellowship, with members of Israel, while they learned Torah every Sabbath.

A ger toshav is a gentile who accepts the authority of the Torah and the rabbis upon himself, but specifically as applied to gentiles. The term ger toshav may be used in a formal or informal sense.

In the formal sense, a ger toshav is a gentile who officially accepts the seven Noahide Laws as binding upon himself in the presence of a beth din (Jewish rabbinical court). In the Talmudic discussion regarding the ger toshav, there are two other, differing minority opinions (Avodah Zarah, 64b) as to what the ger toshav accepts upon himself:[6][7]

To abstain from idolatrous practices of any kind (detailed in Exodus 20:2–4, Deut 5:6–8).[2]
To uphold all the 613 commandments in rabbinical enumeration,[2] except for the prohibition against eating kosher animals that died by means other than ritual slaughter, or possibly[6] (Meiri) any prohibition not involving kareth.

The accepted legal definition is the majority opinion that the ger toshav must accept the seven Noahide Laws before a rabbinical court of three.[2][6] Such a ger toshav receives certain legal protections and privileges from the community, the rules regarding Jewish-Gentile relations are modified, and there is a Biblical obligation to render him aid when in need. The restrictions on having a gentile do work for a Jew on the Sabbath are also stricter when the gentile is a ger toshav.[8]

In the informal sense, a ger toshav is one who accepts the Noahide Laws on his own, or alternatively, simply rejects idolatry[2][6] (the latter issue is in particular brought up regarding Muslims.)[6] More formally, a gentile who accepts the Seven Mitzvot, although not before a beth din, is known as chasid umot ha'olam, which means "Pious People of the World."[9] There is discussion among the halakhic authorities as to which of the rules regarding a ger toshav would apply to the informal case.[2][8]

The procedure has been discontinued since the cessation of the year of Jubilee, and hence, there are no formal gerim toshvim (plural) extant today. However, it can be argued that a great deal are "informal" ones,[6] especially since it is possible to be a chasid umot ha'olam even when the Jubilee Year is not observed.[10]

ger toshav - Yahoo Search Results

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun.

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

SwordmanJr said:
You will have to explain that one. Are you saying that you vowed to live the Law of Moses when baptized?

I made a vow to start a new life seeking obedience to YHWH's word, Yahshua, his word from the beginning, looking to his example.

Yahshua covers the transgressions that I commit unknowingly. That is the role of the High Priest.

(CLV) Mt 3:1
Now in those days, coming along is John the baptist, heralding in the wilderness of Judea,

(CLV) Mt 3:2
saying: "Repent! for °near is the kingdom of the heavens!"

What does repent mean to you?

SwordmanJr · Apr 10, 2020

HARK! said:
They were addressing babes in need of milk. They were addressing the bare minimum to even share table fellowship, with members of Israel, while they learned Torah every Sabbath.

And where do you see that? Is it not true that, before the cross, ALL Israelites were subject to the same level of obedience to ALL the Law of Moses; that ignorance was no excuse? Would Uzzah have been spared had he been a new convert not yet knowing the Law concerning touching the ark?

But in Acts 15 and other relevant sections of scripture, there is nothing stating what you claimed. Nothing in there said the Gentiles were babes in the milk, etc. You seem to have some sort of block in understanding the clear language without throwing in all those subjective elements that try to go in the direction of your beliefs. Why do you persist in ignoring the appeals concerning the act of placing the Law of Moses upon the Gentiles where it clearly states, "...why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" and "...through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

The direct line of correlation is drawn in that text, that the Jew shall be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles, through the grace of Yeshua. The finality of the matter is where James declared, "...certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:"

What law? As the context states, the Law of Moses. The Torah. No such yoke was to be placed on the Gentiles, according to James. Peter himself stated that the Law was a yoke that not even their fathers could bare. Why do you and your friends have such difficulty accepting that? Why do you persist in trying to subvert the souls of others with the Law of Moses as your weapon of choice? You have no case, given the clear language of those passages in their context. Adding what isn't there lends nothing to your claims.

Look, I've said many times that I have no problem with you and your friends doing as you wish, and to see through what you have vowed. However, when you see fit to try and subvert others with the idea that they are equally bound to what you choose to adopt for yourself, that's where you have no leg upon which to stand. Arguing that the Gentile disciples were babes in the milk and such, you're doing exactly what we can see being perpetrated by the cults. The tactic is the same when trying to CHANGE the meaning by throwing in argumentative elements that undermine the clarity of what we can see in the language of their words.

We are ALL disciples of Yeshua, and will always remain such, so even according to your words, we are free from the Law of Moses except for those parts that James reiterated. There. How's that for a little bait and switch? Peter said it all, which went hand in hand with what James said. Yes, the Jewish believers were zealous for the Law, but you're trying to build a bridge for the requirement for Law to pass over onto the Gentiles that simply won't sustain the weight. It crashes into a heap every time down in the canyon below. Your bridges are just too weak to sustain the load. Do you get that, or does it need more explanation?

Jr

Scott Husted · Apr 10, 2020

HARK! said:
Yahshua said:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

After Yahshua ascended, James, Yahshua's brother, ordered Paul to make temple sacrifices to prove that he was obedient to the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

Purify G48

ἁγνίζω hagnízō, hag-nid'-zo; from G53; to make clean, i.e. (figuratively) sanctify (ceremonially or morally):—purify (self).

I. ceremonially

A. to make pure, purify, cleanse

II. morally

G48 - hagnizō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

The Ceremonial Law as you call it is a physical form of worship depicting spiritual truths in relationship to our soul. Though I posted the following on CF on another thread it fits this in the same manner ...

"Caiaphas said better for one man to die for the whole nation then the whole nation to die for one man, sounds logical to me. They knew what the Roman's were capable of doing. But he also said this by the spirit being the high priest that year.
So here's a man who was unaware he was even having a spiritual experience."

Der Alte · Apr 10, 2020

HARK! said:
They were addressing babes in need of milk. They were addressing the bare minimum to even share table fellowship, with members of Israel, while they learned Torah every Sabbath....

That is the common argument of Judaizers who want to put gentiles under the law use. Paul was persecuted everywhere he went and uncircumcised gentiles would not have been allowed in the temple or the synagogues. This is what happened to uncircumcised gentiles. They were not in the synagogues learning Torah.

Matthew 10:17-18
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2-3
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

HARK! · Apr 10, 2020

SwordmanJr said:
And where do you see that?

(CLV) 1Pt 1:14
As obedient children, not configuring~ to the former desires, in your ignorance,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:15
but, according as He Who calls you is holy, you also |become holy in all behavior,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:16
because it is written that, Holy shall you be, for I am holy.

(CLV) 1Pt 1:17
And if you are invoking~ the Father, Who is judging impartially according to each one's •work, you may behave, for the time of your sojourn, with fear,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:18
being aware that not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, were you ransomed from your vain behavior, handed down by tradition from the fathers,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a flawless and unspotted lamb,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:20
foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:21
who through Him are believing in God, Who rouses Him from among the dead and is giving Him glory, so that your faith and expectation is to be in God.

(CLV) 1Pt 1:22
Having purified your souls, by the obedience of truth, for unfeigned fondness for the brethren, love one another out of a true heart earnestly,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:23
having been regenerated, not o of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,

(CLV) 1Pt 1:24
because All flesh is grass, And all its glory is as the flower of grass. Withered is the grass, And the flower falls off...

(CLV) 1Pt 1:25
Yet the declaration of the Lord is remaining for the eon. Now this is the declaration which is being brought to you in the evangel.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:1
Putting off, then, all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envies and all vilifications,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:2
as recently born babes, long for the unadulterated milk of the word that by it you may be growing into salvation,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:3
if so be that you taste~ that the Lord is kind:

(CLV) 1Pt 2:4
Whom approaching, a living Stone, having been rejected indeed by men, yet chosen by God, held in honor,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:5
you, also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, into a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, most acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:6
Because of this it is |included in the scripture: Lo! I am laying in Zion a corner capstone, chosen, held in honor, and he who is believing on it may by no means be disgraced.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:7
To you, then, who are believing, is the honor, yet to the unbelieving: "A Stone which is rejected by the builders, this came to be for the head of the corner,"

(CLV) 1Pt 2:8
and a stumbling stone and a snare rock; who are stumbling also at the word, being stubborn, ioto which they were appointed also.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:9
Yet you are a chosen race, a "royal priesthood," a "holy nation," a procured people, so that you should be recounting the virtues of Him Who calls you out of darkness into His marvelous light,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:10
who once were "not a people" yet now are the people of God, who "|have not enjoyed mercy," yet now are "being shown mercy."

(CLV) 1Pt 2:11
Beloved, I am entreating you, as sojourners and expatriates, to be abstaining~ from the fleshly lusts which are warring against the soul,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:12
having your behavior among the nations ideal, that in that in which they are speaking against you as of evildoers, by being spectators of ideal acts they should be glorifying God in the day of visitation.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:13
You may be subject to every human creation because of the Lord, whether to the king, as a superior,

(CLV) 1Pt 2:14
or to governors, as being sent by him for vengeance on evildoers, yet for the applause of doers of good.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:15
For thus it is the will of God, by doing good to be muzzling the ignorance of imprudent men;

(CLV) 1Pt 2:16
as free, and not as having freedom for a cover over evil, but as God's slaves.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:17
Honor all; love the brotherhood; fear God; honor the king.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:18
Domestics may do it by being subject to your owners, with all fear, not only to the good and lenient, but to the crooked also;

(CLV) 1Pt 2:19
for this is grace, if, because of consciousness of God, anyone is undergoing sorrows, suffering unjustly.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:20
For what credit is it if, sinning and being buffeted, you will be enduring it? But if, doing good and suffering, you will be enduring, this is grace with God.

(CLV) 1Pt 2:21
For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also suffered for your sakes, leaving you a copy, that you should be following up in the footprints of Him

(CLV) 1Pt 2:22
Who does not sin, neither was guile found in His mouth;

Do you know the definition of sin?

SwordmanJr said:
Is it not true that, before the cross, ALL Israelites were subject to the same level of obedience to ALL the Law of Moses

Why would you assume that ger toshav are Israel?

HARK! · Apr 10, 2020

Scott Husted said:
The Ceremonial Law as you call it is a physical form of worship depicting spiritual truths in relationship to our soul. Though I posted the following on CF on another thread it fits this in the same manner ...

"Caiaphas said better for one man to die for the whole nation then the whole nation to die for one man, sounds logical to me. They knew what the Roman's were capable of doing. But he also said this by the spirit being the high priest that year.
So here's a man who was unaware he was even having a spiritual experience."

Does Yahshua call you to follow him?

HARK! · Apr 10, 2020

Der Alter said:
That is the common argument of Judaizers who want to put gentiles under the law use.

You're not under the law unless you are breaking it.

Der Alter said:
Paul was persecuted everywhere he went and uncircumcised gentiles would not have been allowed in the temple or the synagogues.

That's pure nonsense. Gentiles were attending congregations that Paul established.

(CLV) Ac 15:19
"Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back onto God,

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial =pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Der Alter said:
This is what happened to uncircumcised gentiles. They were not in the synagogues learning Torah.
Matthew 10:17-18
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2-3
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Paul wasn't even at this meeting, nor were Paul's disciples. Yahshua was addressing his well seasoned disciples.

Der Alte · Apr 10, 2020

HARK! said:
You're not under the law unless you are breaking it.

Is this supposed to mean something?

That's pure nonsense. Gentiles were attending congregations that Paul established.

House churches established by Paul and others were not synagogues. Any attempt to put uncircumcised gentiles in synagogues contradicts the words of Jesus whether Paul was present when Jesus said it or not.

(CLV) Ac 15:19
"Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back onto God,
(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial =pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.

Gentiles were give 4 commands, repeated 3 times in Acts. and were specifically told only these 4 things.

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

Only the gentiles had to receive instructions on what to do the Jews already heard the law every Sabbath. Unless Jesus did not know what He was talking about gentiles were not welcome in the synagogues. And this does not state or imply that uncircumcised gentiles were welcomed in the synagogues.

Paul wasn't even at this meeting, nor were Paul's disciples. Yahshua was addressing his well seasoned disciples.

So what? Jesus prophesied how the Jews would treat Christians, Paul not being there was irrelevant.

HARK! · Apr 10, 2020

Der Alter said:
House churches established by Paul and others were not synagogues.

Read your Bible.

(CLV) Ac 18:4
Now he argued in the synagogue on every sabbath and persuaded both Jews and Greeks

Was Ceremonial Law Abolished?

Were "ceremonial" laws abolished despite Yahshua's direct instruction?

Yes

No

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