Impulse, Satan's lies override God's truth, facts and logic

Bob8102 · Mar 25, 2020

The power of personal, selfish impulse, and thoughts the devil puts in one's head (or at least, in my head) override knowledge of God's truth, facts and logic.

When I was a teenager, my older brother became a Christian and started talking about God, the Bible, etc. I remember at one point, asking him, if you become one of God's people, does God then give you a nice life? My brother responded with stuff about suffering, etc. From that point on, for the next several decades, until fairly recently, I had the idea that God is into tormenting us because we are sinners. It's either, become a Christian and suffer unbearable torment now, and go to heaven when you die, or don't become a Christian, enjoy the now, don't suffer, and endure unbearable torment after you die, in hell. It's natural to choose delay of torment, it's natural to choose not to become a Christian.

That misunderstanding has been cleared up for me, recently. But there is still this concept that God wants us to be miserable now, and have enjoyment after we die, and Satan wants us to enjoy life now, and go to hell after we die. With such an understanding one (or I) steer clear of becoming a Christian. Since the typical Christian does not report being most of the time miserable, one (or I) should be able to see this and ignore the lie from Satan. But he can convince one (or me) that, well, for ME, the Christian life will be terrible and miserable, regardless of what Christians witness.

I just read that one needs to surrender to the Holy Spirit to have motives that please God. ("Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.")

In looking at the possibility that I have never yet become a Christian, and that all my "attempts" to become one are fake, I realize that it may be that I have not shaken the lie that God wants us to be miserable now, if we're going to have enjoyment in eternity. The facts include info from verses such as that that reads, 'all things work together for good for those who love God,' etc. Being told that God loves me may offer me cold comfort, because a parent can do things to a child, because they love the child, that the child may not like, may find "unbearable" for the time being.

I know I should learn from what I've heard that God loves and wants the best for me. That He does not offer a trade-off between pure misery now and enjoyment later. But the power of self-protective impulse, and of Satan's lies, may not disappear overnight, or without a struggle.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 25, 2020

hi who enjoys life more a guy like Bill Cosby or Harvey weinstein who had money and gave themselves over to selfish desires and abused people or say a guy who met and fell in love with one woman and had and raised a family with a close bond and in the end he had a best friend and lover for 50 years and children and grandchildren that loved and respected him? Momentary fulfillment is like a drug that wears off and needs to be filled over and over. Real fulfillment is a state of being. Circumstances can go good or bad but the guy who prepared for retirement is less afraid of getting old so too is the man of God less afraid of dying. We are all eternal and can see nature is in harmony and balance apart from man. Jesus brings us back into harmony with God when we live in His spirit. This is what we were made for and Jesus love and spirit is with us in good and bad times.

John42 · Mar 27, 2020

Some books

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Porpoise · Mar 28, 2020

The enjoyment Satan tempts us with is not real. It's like a mirage, you will think earthly paradise is just on the horizon, within your grasp, but as you think you're approaching it, you never actually get there because the illusion either fades away or moves farther away. People who have an addiction start out feeling good, but then they just feel miserable, and keep going anyways because they think that without it they would be even more miserable. What Satan actually leads people to is not happiness but confusion, entrapment, not knowing what real happiness is, fear of suffering, and constant unfulfilled longings. Those who follow him suffer for nothing, without doing any good, and without any reward or promise of heaven.

When Christians suffer, we do so knowing that we will be rewarded in heaven for our perseverance. "Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us." We also do so knowing that we are not alone in our suffering, but that God is always with us and cares for us. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God." "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?" So we Christians, in the midst of our suffering, find love, and that love strengthens us.

But the Christian's life is not only about suffering. We are also given joy and peace and so many graces and blessings. Suffering is often only a small part in the life of a Christian. So you shouldn't think that being Christian is equivalent to suffering. Especially when non-Christians suffer also, and for nothing.

Alive At Last · Mar 29, 2020

Thank you for your insight, Bob. I see my former self reflected in much of your post.

I suffered but I know that my suffering was not what God wanted for me, it is what I had unwittingly brought upon myself. In denying, sometimes even scorning The Truth -- barring Christ from my life -- I had essentially let satan in and gave him the power to run my life and attempt to further corrode my soul. If you had asked me at the time I would maintain that I knew there was no such as a soul or God or satan.

It was that false belief which was entirely responsible for my suffering. That suffering only further cemented my false belief. It was a vicious cycle, to be sure.

Bob8102 · Apr 6, 2020

Thank you all for your responses. Porpoise, you must be a saved Catholic. What you write is so right on, so biblically based.

Jesus told Peter, before his trial and crucifixion, "Satan has asked to sift you like wheat." When I try to give my life to Christ, I am facing whether or not I am REALLY ready to give it to Him. Like, just now, I was saying to Jesus, "Jesus, you said to count the cost." I can say that, and try to count the cost, and then just try to give myself to Christ, in faith. When I try to give myself to Him, I often say, "Take me!" But at the same time, I have to wonder, "Am I really, sincerely, giving my life to Christ? Or am I just trying to fool myself and Him?"

I have long wanted the instant relief of instant salvation. But do I try to get saved without truly being willing to accept the cost? That is the issue I face.

Porpoise · Apr 6, 2020

Bob8102 said:
Thank you all for your responses. Porpoise, you must be a saved Catholic. What you write is so right on, so biblically based.

Jesus told Peter, before his trial and crucifixion, "Satan has asked to sift you like wheat." When I try to give my life to Christ, I am facing whether or not I am REALLY ready to give it to Him. Like, just now, I was saying to Jesus, "Jesus, you said to count the cost." I can say that, and try to count the cost, and then just try to give myself to Christ, in faith. When I try to give myself to Him, I often say, "Take me!" But at the same time, I have to wonder, "Am I really, sincerely, giving my life to Christ? Or am I just trying to fool myself and Him?"

I have long wanted the instant relief of instant salvation. But do I try to get saved without truly being willing to accept the cost? That is the issue I face.

Salvation is not instant, nor necessarily easy. You must seek God always, with all your heart. Hope and trust in him to deliver you from every trial. You are not facing whether you are really ready to give your life to God. You are facing the temptation not to. Think about it. Could anyone really be not ready to give their life to God? Is God only for later? God created you, he knit you together in your mother's womb. Did he knit you together, and then you were not ready for him? Does a child say to his mother, "I'm not ready for you yet"?

Bob8102 · Apr 6, 2020

Porpoise said:
Salvation is not instant, nor necessarily easy. You must seek God always, with all your heart. Hope and trust in him to deliver you from every trial. You are not facing whether you are really ready to give your life to God. You are facing the temptation not to. Think about it. Could anyone really be not ready to give their life to God? Is God only for later? God created you, he knit you together in your mother's womb. Did he knit you together, and then you were not ready for him? Does a child say to his mother, "I'm not ready for you yet"?

In my understanding, salvation is instant, but not easy. Like I've said in other posts, salvation occurs in a moment, but that is one incredible moment! After salvation, there is sanctification. That is a life-long, often difficult process.

Salvation: instant, but not easy. It's a catch-22 to the nonbeliever; he cannot obtain it, no matter how hard he tries. It's a catch-22, because, on the one hand, you can be saved in a moment, but, OTOH, if you don't live your whole life afterward in progressive holiness, then you were not saved in the first place.

I just now reread the "Counting the Cost" chapter in CS Lewis book, "Mere Christianity." To understand what I am responding to here, it would be best if you have relatively recently read that. Lewis says that when someone calls Jesus in, He is going to put them on a path toward absolute perfection, nothing less. Lewis talks about resisting this process. That bothers me, because the New Testament talks about "drawing back to perdition." If you resist Christ/the Holy Spirit, you must not be saved, right?

On one hand, the Christian walk is a life-long struggle. OTOH, Jesus said things that back up "salvation in a moment." He told the paralytic that He healed, "Your sins are forgiven." In His parable of the Pharisee and the tax-collector, the tax-collector cried out, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" Jesus said the tax-collector went to his house JUSTIFIED. He was justified in a moment!

In my many attempts to be saved in a moment, I have often sincerely cried out things like "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" and "Take me!" That is what a friend of mine (now in heaven) told me he said the moment he gave his life to Christ: "Take me!"

But I always doubt I'm saved, usually immediately. I didn't count the cost. I didn't truly give my life to Christ. I was just saying words, not truly repenting of my sin and surrendering to Christ. That moment of surrender to Christ is impossible to obtain, for me. So far. Or so it seems.

Bob8102 · Apr 6, 2020

Porpoise said:
Salvation is not instant, nor necessarily easy. You must seek God always, with all your heart. Hope and trust in him to deliver you from every trial. You are not facing whether you are really ready to give your life to God. You are facing the temptation not to. Think about it. Could anyone really be not ready to give their life to God? Is God only for later? God created you, he knit you together in your mother's womb. Did he knit you together, and then you were not ready for him? Does a child say to his mother, "I'm not ready for you yet"?

"Does a child say to his mother, 'I'm not ready for you yet?" No, but a child says to God, "I'm not ready for You yet." That's because we are born sinners, separated from God.

Bob8102 · Apr 6, 2020

Another thing I have tried is to recall the account of the woman at the well. Jesus said to her, "If you knew the gift of God and Who it is Who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked Him and He would have given you living water." I think of that, and then, for instance, say, "Jesus, I am asking You for living water." But, I guess I am not sincere. Because I don't understand myself to be saved, afterward.

Porpoise · Apr 6, 2020

Bob8102 said:
In my understanding, salvation is instant, but not easy. Like I've said in other posts, salvation occurs in a moment, but that is one incredible moment! After salvation, there is sanctification. That is a life-long, often difficult process.

What I mean is this: "He who endures to the end will be saved." - Matthew 24:13

Bob8102 said:
Another thing I have tried is to recall the account of the woman at the well. Jesus said to her, "If you knew the gift of God and Who it is Who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked Him and He would have given you living water." I think of that, and then, for instance, say, "Jesus, I am asking You for living water." But, I guess I am not sincere. Because I don't understand myself to be saved, afterward.

Trust that you are loved. Hope in his love and mercy. Abide in him. Remember that Christ died for you, died of love, desiring for you to repent and turn to him. Don't delay. Don't let anything keep you from him. No one knows when their death will come.

Bob8102 · Apr 7, 2020

Porpoise said:
What I mean is this: "He who endures to the end will be saved." - Matthew 24:13

Trust that you are loved. Hope in his love and mercy. Abide in him. Remember that Christ died for you, died of love, desiring for you to repent and turn to him. Don't delay. Don't let anything keep you from him. No one knows when their death will come.

You quoted Matthew 24:13. Conversely, he who is saved endures to the end. But I know of one or more exceptions to this rule. I know another guy named Bob who became a Christian shortly before I met him at a Bible study. We became best friends (with me not understanding myself to be a Christian). I knew him for decades after that, and vouch for the fact that he is a bona fida Christian. Yet, after decades, he turned against Christianity in his mind. This is because he had, years previous to this turn, stopped going to church and stopped fellowshipping with other believers. He became intellectually convinced against the truth of Christianity. He no longer, for instance, believed that God is triune. I argued with him on that point. Even though I was not a Christian myself, I was mad at him for turning away. Our friendship ended (at least for now). I think that if someone reconvinces him that the Truth is true, his mind and then his heart will turn back to the Lord. But I know, in the meantime, that he has not lost his salvation.

"Remember that Christ died for you, died of love, desiring for you to repent and turn to him."

I have been trying to repent and turn to Him for over ten years. But I continue to figure I'm not saved. It's like there is a problem with me and the difference between head knowledge and heart obedience. Only recently have I come to understand that God is not into tormenting people because they are sinners. But the impression that a life of self being crucified is miserable must still hang with me, because I apparently don't truly repent and trust. I repeatedly do things like say sinner's prayers and by other means try to turn to Christ. But there is some kind of disconnect. I'm afraid that I'm doing it all in my head, not my heart.

i mentioned on Christian Forums one time that I'm afraid that even when I think I sincerely turn to Christ, in my heart of hearts I'm really still clinging to self, and my "turning to Christ" is just a pantomime. One guy responded that I am not trusting Christ for my salvation, but trusting myself. He said that I am making my sincerity the key to my salvation; he said that the key is not me but the Savior. I have thought a lot about that. Maybe, there's something about salvation that I still just don't "get." Maybe I do not, and don't know what it means to, "look unto Jesus."

Bob8102 · Apr 7, 2020

Let me ask this question of anyone reading: Isn't a life of self being crucified, miserable?

Bob8102 · Apr 7, 2020

I ask again, isn't a life of self being crucified, miserable? Porpoise answered about suffering, but suffering and crucifixion of self aren't always the same thing.

Now, in case no one answers this question of mine, I can go ahead and try to answer it myself, from my experience with Christians and my knowledge of Christianity. Maybe one would say, it's similar to Porpoise' answer about suffering. Christians know that God loves them and whatever He requires of them is good and for their good. Knowing they are loved gives them strength to put to death the desires of self.

Is that the right answer? I can know certain facts, like God loves me, in my head, but still, this knowledge may not translate to knowledge of the heart and action of the will. For instance, one of the things I have done yesterday and today is, repeat to myself, "God loves me and wants what's best for me. Jesus, you said to count the cost." I have been trying to being these two concepts together at the same time, to see if that causes me to make a real commitment to Christ. So far, though, the effect is the same as usual: I certainly do not know that I am saved.

Does anyone else have an answer to my question about crucifixion of self?

Porpoise · Apr 7, 2020

Bob8102 said:
You quoted Matthew 24:13. Conversely, he who is saved endures to the end. But I know of one or more exceptions to this rule. I know another guy named Bob who became a Christian shortly before I met him at a Bible study. We became best friends (with me not understanding myself to be a Christian). I knew him for decades after that, and vouch for the fact that he is a bona fida Christian. Yet, after decades, he turned against Christianity in his mind. This is because he had, years previous to this turn, stopped going to church and stopped fellowshipping with other believers. He became intellectually convinced against the truth of Christianity. He no longer, for instance, believed that God is triune. I argued with him on that point. Even though I was not a Christian myself, I was mad at him for turning away. Our friendship ended (at least for now). I think that if someone reconvinces him that the Truth is true, his mind and then his heart will turn back to the Lord. But I know, in the meantime, that he has not lost his salvation.

"Remember that Christ died for you, died of love, desiring for you to repent and turn to him."

I have been trying to repent and turn to Him for over ten years. But I continue to figure I'm not saved. It's like there is a problem with me and the difference between head knowledge and heart obedience. Only recently have I come to understand that God is not into tormenting people because they are sinners. But the impression that a life of self being crucified is miserable must still hang with me, because I apparently don't truly repent and trust. I repeatedly do things like say sinner's prayers and by other means try to turn to Christ. But there is some kind of disconnect. I'm afraid that I'm doing it all in my head, not my heart.

i mentioned on Christian Forums one time that I'm afraid that even when I think I sincerely turn to Christ, in my heart of hearts I'm really still clinging to self, and my "turning to Christ" is just a pantomime. One guy responded that I am not trusting Christ for my salvation, but trusting myself. He said that I am making my sincerity the key to my salvation; he said that the key is not me but the Savior. I have thought a lot about that. Maybe, there's something about salvation that I still just don't "get." Maybe I do not, and don't know what it means to, "look unto Jesus."

There's no need to change the words and make a converse. Stay with the words of Jesus: "He who endures to the end will be saved." You must endure to the end. Keep seeking God, and don't give up. Trust in him. Jesus didn't come for the righteous but for sinners, to save them. You are sinner, but have faith and hope, because God is merciful. Even when you don't feel his presence and love, don't ever think he doesn't see you, that he's indifferent to you. Turn from your sins always, turn to God for mercy. Hope in what you can't see or feel at the moment. Hope in his love, and have patience in all your trials. Pray constantly, because no one can receive anything unless it was given to him from heaven.

Porpoise · Apr 7, 2020

Bob8102 said:
I ask again, isn't a life of self being crucified, miserable? Porpoise answered about suffering, but suffering and crucifixion of self aren't always the same thing.

Now, in case no one answers this question of mine, I can go ahead and try to answer it myself, from my experience with Christians and my knowledge of Christianity. Maybe one would say, it's similar to Porpoise' answer about suffering. Christians know that God loves them and whatever He requires of them is good and for their good. Knowing they are loved gives them strength to put to death the desires of self.

Is that the right answer? I can know certain facts, like God loves me, in my head, but still, this knowledge may not translate to knowledge of the heart and action of the will. For instance, one of the things I have done yesterday and today is, repeat to myself, "God loves me and wants what's best for me. Jesus, you said to count the cost." I have been trying to being these two concepts together at the same time, to see if that causes me to make a real commitment to Christ. So far, though, the effect is the same as usual: I certainly do not know that I am saved.

Does anyone else have an answer to my question about crucifixion of self?

I found quotes from saints and holy people that have to do with self-crucifixion or the joy of living a devout life. Don't worry if you don't feel this kind of joy yet, have faith and continue to seek God and trust in him.

"A devout life, above all things, is a life that is sweet, happy and amiable." - St. Francis de Sales

“You will never be happy if your happiness depends on getting solely what you want. Change the focus. Get a new center. Will what God wills, and your joy no man shall take from you.” Venerable Fulton Sheen

“A cross carried simply, and without those returns of self-love which exaggerate troubles, is no longer a cross. Peaceable suffering is no longer suffering. We complain of suffering! We should have much more reason to complain of not suffering, since nothing makes us more like Our Lord than carrying His Cross. Oh, what a beautiful union of the soul with Our Lord Jesus Christ by the love and the virtue of His Cross!” St. John Vianney

"It is always springtime in the heart that loves God." - St. John Vianney

"We who are Christians have a further cause for joy: like Jesus, we know that we are loved by God our Father. This love transforms our lives and fills us with joy. It makes us see that Jesus did not come to lay burdens upon us. He came to teach us what it means to be fully happy and fully human. Therefore, we discover joy when we discover truth–the truth about God our Father, the truth about Jesus our Saviour, the truth about the Holy Spirit who lives in our hearts." -Pope Saint John Paul II

John Helpher · Apr 12, 2020

Bob8102 said:
The facts include info from verses such as that that reads, 'all things work together for good for those who love God,' etc. Being told that God loves me may offer me cold comfort, because a parent can do things to a child, because they love the child, that the child may not like, may find "unbearable" for the time being.

Most of the time the miserable feeling comes because we don't want to let go of what is not good for us. To use your illustration of the parent and child, the child may feel miserable at not getting the toy he wants or not being allowed to eat the sweets and treats he wants, but the parent knows better. It is the parents job to use his wisdom and understanding to guide the child even if the child, in that moment, thinks the parent is selfish, or horrible, or uncaring. The child only thinks that way because he does not have the more mature perspective of the parent.

The trick isn't to stubbornly sulk that the parent isn't giving us what we want or to complain that it's all unfair or too hard, but rather to think carefully about the reasons why the parent withholds or guides. When we come to learn the reasons why the parent behaves the way he does, it will be easier for us to internalize his reasoning and in turn we will find there is less misery to feel as a result.

A child may think it is the greatest thing to play video games all day, eat and drink sweets, and stay up as late as he wants and perhaps the parent will think he's showing love by allowing such behavior, but then, when the child becomes an adult and has no discipline, no education, and a mouth full of cavities, both he and the parent are likely to be more miserable.

Impulse, Satan's lies override God's truth, facts and logic

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John 3:16

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