The seemingly "discrepencies" between the apostles James and Paul.

eleos1954

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I see, then it's faith and work?

If you have faith .... you will have works ....

James 2:21-23 ESV / 11 helpful votes
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God
 
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HatGuy

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I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.

Of course. This makes James sound like a liar because he seemingly says that a workless faith will not save.


But wait. How can that be true? How can a Christian "have" to do works but yet at the same time is saved whether or not he does works. This has puzzled theologians for thousands of years. But my thought I just had is, what if they're both right.

A workless faith seems to be a "dead" faith in Gods eyes and God rebukes and chastises them for their lack of obedience on Judgement day. A fate I personally would not want to suffer. I want to be praised by God not have him discipline me lovingly with a rod of iron and have Christ say "you wicked and lazy servant". Yet just like Paul says they're STILL saved. They just will enter heaven without rewards while the obedient Christian's will be richly rewarded and praised for their service.

After all. Both statements are spoken by the Holy Spirit so both statements HAVE to be true so what if I "cracked the code" so to speak. After all James and Paul were friends and fellow apostles together. So they must have agreed on doctrine. So there should be no contradiction here. Those who have a workless faith DO enter heaven.

But that does raise a question if we accept this as fact. Just what is saving faith then? Paul answers this question throughout his letters. Salvation is by faith. In other words faith in the gospel. In other words, relying on it, believing that it's TRUE, and having full confidence that you have a heavenly home in Jesus.

But what then about the apotosates? I... honestly dont know. And what about Christs parable about wordless Faith's? I dont know. I just know the whole bible has to fit together. Either Paul was a heretic who shouldn't be listened to or we REALLY ARE saved when we have a workless faith. Because Paul didnt just say it once. He said it throughout his letters. Paul's message of what a "saving" faith was believing the gospel. That is quite clear.
The works in question are for your neighbour, not for God. James 2 appears to have the "neighbour" in view (particularly the poor). A workless faith is no good at helping anyone. You can't say you have faith and claim you've helped anyone.

If James 2:14 is translated as "Can this kind of faith save anyone?" (as it can be) the whole thing falls very neatly into place.

'If a brother or sister[aa] is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs,[ab] what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself."

The context is love for neighbour.
 
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ZNP

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Bluntly put, it's because there are some Christians who believe that our good deeds earn God's favor towards us and that the more and better ones done will make us more likely of being saved.

The verse that was quoted much earlier in this thread about Faith without Works being dead is one of their favorites but is misrepresented when taken out of context.
So we answer the same question over and over again without ever trying to actually understand what James wrote?
 
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ZNP

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The works in question are for your neighbour, not for God. James 2 appears to have the "neighbour" in view (particularly the poor). A workless faith is no good at helping anyone. You can't say you have faith and claim you've helped anyone.

If James 2:14 is translated as "Can this kind of faith save anyone?" (as it can be) the whole thing falls very neatly into place.

'If a brother or sister[aa] is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs,[ab] what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself."

The context is love for neighbour.
Which in turn is one of the commandments that the Lord gave us.
 
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Skittles

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Initial justification (being made right with God) is through faith (Paul). Ongoing sanctification and salvation (James) requires us to do our part and live our faith - failure to do so has consequences - if not why would Satan tempt us to fall away. Different sides of the same coin.
 
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ZNP

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Initial justification (being made right with God) is through faith (Paul). Ongoing sanctification and salvation (James) requires us to do our part and live our faith - failure to do so has consequences - if not why would Satan tempt us to fall away. Different sides of the same coin.
Besides saying their faith is vain, what are the consequences that James gives for not living out our faith?

I am aware of the consequences he gives if we do live out our faith, but not of the ones he gives for not living out our faith. (I understand you are referring to consequences to the believer who does not live out their faith, not to the person who is told to go in peace without giving them the the things they need)
 
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chilehed

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Just what is saving faith then?
The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat, meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah, which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it's about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is Truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "works through charity."

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin, which weakens our will so that it is not truly free. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it of our own free will. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the "obedience of faith". At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.
 
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ZNP

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What he wrote is that Faith saves.
I think the conclusion is very telling --
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

So yes, it is all about saving faith, but salvation to the one you are ministering to as much as salvation to yourself.
 
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Skittles

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Besides saying their faith is vain, what are the consequences that James gives for not living out our faith?

I am aware of the consequences he gives if we do live out our faith, but not of the ones he gives for not living out our faith. (I understand you are referring to consequences to the believer who does not live out their faith, not to the person who is told to go in peace without giving them the the things they need)

I’d look broader than James as we are told faith has to work in love (Gal 5:6) and that faith without love is nothing (1 Cor 13:2) and our Lord and Savior many times tells us to keep His commandments to inherit life/be saved (Jn 14:15 Mt 19:16-17 Mt 24:13). That is more than intellectual faith - that is a faith that bears fruit through works.
 
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nolidad

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Paul did not say that.

There is no discrepancy!

We are saved apart from works as Paul declared! But as both Paul and James both said, saving faith produces works.

Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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ZNP

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10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, why is there such a focus on being saved to the exclusion of all else when "God has ordained that we should walk in good works".

Surely that is where most Christians need support and ministry, how to walk in good works.

How to be pleasing to God in the work that He has ordained for us to do.
 
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Strong in Him

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I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead"

Yes, and a lot of people quote just those words, taken out of context.

Of course. This makes James sound like a liar because he seemingly says that a workless faith will not save.

James wasn't actually talking about eternal life, salvation and being saved from hell at that point.
At the beginning of chapter 2 he is talking about not showing favouritism, James 2:1-7. He reminds his readers that the royal law is "love your neighbour as yourself", but that if they showed favouritism, they were guilty of breaking that law - and if a person breaks one part of the law, they break all of it, James 2:8-11. He tells them to show mercy, and then goes on to ask what good it is to tell a homeless, hungry person to "stay well, warm and well fed" and not do anything about it?
It seems to me from that that James is saying that there's no point in blessing someone or offering warm words alone - words do not actually keep anyone warm. If you wish that they will be fed and clothed; do something about it. Or as we might say - "be the answer to your own prayers."

He doesn't actually say here that a person needs to do good works to prove that they have faith in, and are saved by, Jesus.

A workless faith seems to be a "dead" faith in Gods eyes and God rebukes and chastises them for their lack of obedience on Judgement day.

Well not entirely.
Someone might believe in Jesus, receive him and have eternal life but not be able to physically do very much, except pray and encourage people. That doesn't mean that their faith is not real, however.

After all. Both statements are spoken by the Holy Spirit so both statements HAVE to be true

They ARE true; Scripture does not contradict itself.
My feeling is that if people paid more attention to the context, the people that these letters were written to and their circumstances, instead of taking a few words out of context and building a doctrine on them, we'd understand Scripture better.

so what if I "cracked the code" so to speak.

What you've just said is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

But that does raise a question if we accept this as fact. Just what is saving faith then?

Faith in Jesus and his finished work on the cross.
Jesus came to die for us, Matthew 26:28 and reconcile us to God, Romans 5:11. We were all sinners, Romans 3:23; spiritually dead, apart from God, and nothing that WE could do would change that.
If we accept that we can't get eternal life and to heaven by our own works because we are spiritually dead, that Jesus came as the 2nd Adam to bring justification, life and righteousness, Romans 5:12-19 and that he alone can reconcile us to God and give us eternal life, we are saved by him.
When the Pharisees asked what were the works that God required them to do, Jesus replied, "the work of God is to believe in the One he has sent," John 6:29.
 
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com7fy8

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I just had a thought. Everybody knows James's famous statement "faith without works is dead" and Paul's statements in Romans and in Corinthians and some of his other letters that its possible to be saved without doing one single work for God. Because Faith is what saves not works.
Paul does not say we can be saved without doing anything.

The contradiction is in how people interpret God's word.

Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6. And James in chapter two of his letter gives three examples of works which he means > each is a work of love.

So, I personally understand that Paul and James mean we are saved by faith which has us doing things in God's love.
 
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Albion

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I think he gave the how to guide for having a work of faith. I go through the book verse by verse in my blog. The first podcast -- Wandering sheep
I don't see anything remarkable about that, though. It doesn't bear upon the never-ending dispute involved with James, namely "Are we saved by 'Faith Alone' or by 'Faith+Works?'"

And if we are instead to turn to what you just highlighted--"God has ordained that we should walk in good works"--well, there's just about nobody who thinks we ought NOT to do good works, certainly not the people who are lined up behind 'Faith Alone' any more than the ones who favor 'Faith+Works.'

:)
 
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PaulCyp1

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Works cannot "earn" salvation, because salvation cannot be earned. It is a free gift from God that we either accept or reject. However, once we do accept it, our lives begin to be transformed. We begin to live as God calls us to live, which means caring for others, helping the poor and need among us. In other words, works of Christian charity. So works are essential, not because they "earn" salvation, but because they are an inevitable result of salvation. Those who claim to be "saved", but don't live as God calls them to live, including care for others, are deluding themselves.
 
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nolidad

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Yes, why is there such a focus on being saved to the exclusion of all else when "God has ordained that we should walk in good works".

Surely that is where most Christians need support and ministry, how to walk in good works.

How to be pleasing to God in the work that He has ordained for us to do.

That is what the local church is for! We learn from the under shepherds of the Chief Shepherd to live our lives in holiness. Plus prayer, plus studying to show ourselves approved!

But we need to know that salvation is apart from any good works
 
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ZNP

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I don't see anything remarkable about that, though. It doesn't bear upon the never-ending dispute involved with James, namely "Are we saved by 'Faith Alone' or by 'Faith+Works?'"

And if we are instead to turn to what you just highlighted--"God has ordained that we should walk in good works"--well, there's just about nobody who thinks we ought NOT to do good works, certainly not the people who are lined up behind 'Faith Alone' any more than the ones who favor 'Faith+Works.'

:)
The seeming discrepancy is based on this myopic view that any time the word "saved" is used it has to refer to our eternal salvation. There seems to be many, many references in James that would indicate this is not the context for James. Pure religion is visiting widows and orphans in their affliction, etc.
 
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