DID GOD FORSAKE HIS SON?

bling said:

Read my post 31.

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No that's okay, I'll stick with what scripture says.

Jesus did become sin:

2 Corinthians 5:21 said:

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

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Jesus did take our punishment in our place, and experienced complete separation:

Isaiah 53:5 said:

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

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There will be times when we/you/me will feel 100% forsaken, but it is not true, God is still there, still feeling what you are feeling with you, i.e. not forsaken, but it will very much seem and feel that way to us, that we have been 100% forsaken, etc, but it's just not ever truly true, etc, God has just chosen not to act, until the act you must go through is 100% done or is 100% completed, etc....

It hurts Him just as much and if not more than the pain we are experiencing or are going through at the time, for His "grief" about it or over it is even greater, or is more and maybe much more, etc...

And if we do not return to our vomit afterwards, it will not have to happen ever again after that, etc, and we will never have to ever experience it again, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

There will be times when we/you/me will feel 100% forsaken, but it is not true, God is still there, still feeling what you are feeling with you, i.e. not forsaken, but it will very much seem and feel that way to us, that we have been 100% forsaken, etc, but it's just not ever truly true, etc, God has just chosen not to act, until the act you must go through is 100% done or is 100% completed, etc....

It hurts Him just as much and if not more than the pain we are experiencing or are going through at the time, for His "grief" about it or over it is even greater, or is more and maybe much more, etc...

And if we do not return to our vomit afterwards, it will not have to happen ever again after that, etc, and we will never have to ever experience it again, etc...

God Bless!

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In Jesus case, He did nothing at all to deserve or merit it though, the feeling that we have been forsaken, etc, but it was for us, etc...

But He felt it, just like all of us do...

David was never ever truly forsaken either, just felt like he was, etc, when he said that, etc...

God Bless!

Ivan Hlavanda said:

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani”: “Eli” is Hebrew, the rest Aramaic (Mark 15:34 gives the entire wail in Aramaic). This cry is a fulfillment of (Psalm 22:1), one of many striking parallels between that Psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. Christ at that moment was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath on Him as sin-bearer.

You see, at one point of this crucifixion when Jesus took on the sin of the whole world, God turned His head. God cannot look upon sin that is not covered by the blood. He is pure. God will burn it up. The sacrifice was not completed yet.

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All I have read (I do not know ancient Hebrew) have said: “lama sabachthani” (λεμα σαβαχθανι)? Is an interesting , these words are used in both Aramaic and Mishnaic Hebrew (the Hebrew used at the time of Yeshua).

It is only the Eli that is Aramaic in Mark and Eloi which is Hebrew, but that brings up the question "why the difference?"

I have explained the reason for the Hebrew in my post 31 which I hope you might read, but did not go into the alternative answered for the differences.

It looks bad for the Bible being protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit if Mark or Matthew messed up or intentionally tried to interject their own words. The most likely alternative I see is for Christ to say it twice: once in Hebrew (probably first) and a second time in Aramaic, but then why say it in Aramaic?

The Hebrew would be addressing the Religious leaders who knew Hebrew and would realize Christ was addressing them specifically, directing them to Psalms 22.

If secular history is true, most young Hebrew boys in the first century would have all the psalms memorized (it is really not that hard to do if you are use to memorizing the poetry of the day and they had no recording device or even paper was expensive, but they might not know it in Hebrew (the language of the religious rulers) or even Greek. That leaves the common first century Jerusalem language of Aramaic. So, who is the audience for this Aramaic quoting of the first verse of Psalms 22?

The Roman soldiers did not know Aramaic, the Jewish religious leaders know the Hebrew, but what about that thief?

It says just before Jesus quotes Psalms 22: Matt 27: 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him. They are repeating the words of the religious leaders right in their with them, yet minutes later one thief will say: “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” What could possible change that thief’s mind in minutes other than realizing Psalms 22 is talking about the man being crucified with him?
out of time

childeye 2 said:

Yes thank you, I read your post. You are suggesting that perhaps Jesus spoke of Psalm 22 to silence those who mocked him (although I'm not sure you're suggesting the Pharisees even got that).
So when you say that, it causes me to think the Pharisees should have been reminded that their mocking only verified that Jesus was/is the son of God when Jesus said it, but they were blinded. However it was actually said for those yet to be believers who can now see that the Pharisees were actually verifying that Jesus was the person Psalm 22 is talking about while mocking him.


I think this provides an answer: Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

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Jesus scripture references often shut the temple leaders up.

Der Alter said:

I don't think it is Arabic. Elohi occurs in Ps 22:2, 3 in Hebrew Bible. Greek has no "H" So in Greek it would be written ελωι as it is in Mark 15:34.
Psa 22:1 למנצח על־אילת השׁחר מזמור לדוד׃ (22:2) אלי אלי למה עזבתני רחוק מישׁועתי דברי שׁאגתי׃
Psa 22:2 (22:3) אלהי אקרא יומם ולא תענה ולילה

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Read my post 64

Anthony7 said:

No that's okay, I'll stick with what scripture says.

Jesus did become sin:

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God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

When I read the above, it means to me that Jesus suffered the blame of sin onto his self so that we shouldn't be blamed who believe on him. Jesus didn't transform into sin on the cross.

This is why I believe his blood is a covering for sin that cleanses the conscience of guilt. However if we truly believe on him, then we also must not blame others and carry our own cross likewise, otherwise we are not worthy of his sacrifice and we deny God's grace. In emulating the Christ's Love on the cross, we too become the righteousness of God. Hence righteousness is by grace through faith in Christ.

NIV 2 Corinthians 5:18
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Romans 5:18-21

Minister Monardo said:

I don't think He was asking for Elijah, I don't know what Temple leaders would have thought. All I know is that Psalm details were being played out before their eyes and they still did not see. He once told them 'Search the scriptures for in them you think you find life, and they testify of me'. Does Psalm 22 do that? And yet, only a Roman centurion came to the conclusion that 'surely this is the Son of God'.
Could this have been Cornelius?

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I never suggested Jesus was asking for Elijah, but if you do not know Hebrew "Eloi" might sound like Elijah.
Jesus had used scripture before to shut the religious leaders up so why would it not work this time?

bling said:

I never suggested Jesus was asking for Elijah, but if you do not know Hebrew "Eloi" might sound like Elijah

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I was just answering your question posed to me:
"You might read my post 31, but do you think the Temple leaders who knew Hebrew thought he was asking for Elijah?"
All I could answer is that I don't think He was, I don't know what they thought. I know Eloi sounds like Elijah, what does lama sabachthani sound like? Psalm 22. I believe He was trying to call attention to the fact that what was playing out before their eyes had been prophesied, but they could not see. Yet a Roman standing by was pursuaded.

bling said:

I never suggested Jesus was asking for Elijah, but if you do not know Hebrew "Eloi" might sound like Elijah.
Jesus had used scripture before to shut the religious leaders up so why would it not work this time?

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As I posted earlier, His words point directly to the Psalm which point directly at Him, but they did not see.
I don't think He was asking for Elijah, I don't know what Temple leaders would have thought. All I know is that Psalm details were being played out before their eyes and they still did not see. He once told them 'Search the scriptures for in them you think you find life, and they testify of me'. Does Psalm 22 do that? And yet, only a Roman centurion came to the conclusion that 'surely this is the Son of God'.
Could this have been Cornelius?

Even though Jesus took the punishment for our sins, especially the eternal ones for those who would believe in Him and have them as their Lord and Savior and put faith in Him and His name, etc, we still have to go through times sometimes of feeling abandoned and/or forsaken in this world, it is just necessary sometimes, and it hurts God maybe even more so than it hurts us, etc, but the eternal or everlasting punishments for our sins Jesus took upon Himself, for those who would have or believe or put faith in Him and His name as having done such, etc...

The proof of that is in the resurrection, etc...

Just thought I may have needed to clear that up, etc...?

God Bless!

I was walking in despair because I hated myself for my burden of sin was great. And my only comfort was that there were others with burdens greater than my own, and so I loathed myself all the more.

Then a man came to me holding a cup filled with the blood of the son of God which had been shed through great torture. And he said, drink from this cup and you will be renewed and live forever.

And I saw judgment at the cup. For if this son of God suffered torture and death so that I might be spared from a cruel and merciless prosecuter, I'd better drink from it so that his suffering will not have been in vain. But if it is to escape the righteous judgment that I have coming to me, then I would rather die in my sins than be willing to harm one hair on his precious head for my gain.

James Honigman said:

Of course not, but there will be thousands of sermons given around the world this week claiming He did forsake His Son. What is the truth, the Biblical truth? It is written in the book of Hebrews 13:5, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. That is the Lord's promise to us; does it make any sense that He would not extend that promise to His only begotten Son?


While it is true that our Beloved had to die a miserable death for us to have salvation, it is not true that our Heavenly Father forsook Him. And many Christians are saying, "Wait a minute, the Lord said those words on the cross Himself, I read it in Matthew 27:46." "He said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Yes, He did say those words, but we, as believers upon Him, need to understand WHY He said those words. There is a good reason; our Lord was identifying Himself as our Messiah, teaching us, and fulfilling prophecy.


Go to Psalm 22, the crucifixion psalm, and read the 1st sentence of the 1st verse. It says, My GOD, My GOD, why hast Thou forsaken Me? That psalm was written by the Holy Spirit, through David, approximately 1,000 years earlier. Our Lord, while He was dying on the cross, was directing us to read that psalm, His crucifixion psalm. And the first thing we should realize is that our Lord Jesus, while addressing GOD directly, never called Him GOD; He always called Him Father.


If I might, I would like to suggest that everyone read the crucifixion psalm this Passover week. In the 8th verse you will see the Pharisees surrounding Him, saying, He trusted on the LORD that He would deliver Him: Let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him. In the 14th verse we can read of His agony: I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint. In verse 16 we read, They pierced My hands and My feet, and in verse 18 we see the Roman soldiers gambling for His garments: They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.


In the last verse we read His instructions to this generation: They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, that He hath done this. Put another way, It is finished. The point of this post is for all Christians to understand what was really going on when our Beloved spoke certain things while being crucified. He was teaching us Who He was, and fulfilling prophecy. Our Father would never forsake Him.

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At least Jesus was forsaken in the meaning the Father let him be crucified. Also Jesus prays to the Father: "Into your hands I commit my spirit" which logically means there was still a connection between the Father and the Son.

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James Honigman said:

Of course not, but there will be thousands of sermons given around the world this week claiming He did forsake His Son. What is the truth, the Biblical truth? It is written in the book of Hebrews 13:5, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. That is the Lord's promise to us; does it make any sense that He would not extend that promise to His only begotten Son?


While it is true that our Beloved had to die a miserable death for us to have salvation, it is not true that our Heavenly Father forsook Him. And many Christians are saying, "Wait a minute, the Lord said those words on the cross Himself, I read it in Matthew 27:46." "He said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Yes, He did say those words, but we, as believers upon Him, need to understand WHY He said those words. There is a good reason; our Lord was identifying Himself as our Messiah, teaching us, and fulfilling prophecy.


Go to Psalm 22, the crucifixion psalm, and read the 1st sentence of the 1st verse. It says, My GOD, My GOD, why hast Thou forsaken Me? That psalm was written by the Holy Spirit, through David, approximately 1,000 years earlier. Our Lord, while He was dying on the cross, was directing us to read that psalm, His crucifixion psalm. And the first thing we should realize is that our Lord Jesus, while addressing GOD directly, never called Him GOD; He always called Him Father.


If I might, I would like to suggest that everyone read the crucifixion psalm this Passover week. In the 8th verse you will see the Pharisees surrounding Him, saying, He trusted on the LORD that He would deliver Him: Let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him. In the 14th verse we can read of His agony: I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint. In verse 16 we read, They pierced My hands and My feet, and in verse 18 we see the Roman soldiers gambling for His garments: They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.


In the last verse we read His instructions to this generation: They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, that He hath done this. Put another way, It is finished. The point of this post is for all Christians to understand what was really going on when our Beloved spoke certain things while being crucified. He was teaching us Who He was, and fulfilling prophecy. Our Father would never forsake Him.

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God/Jesus does not speak empty words. You are having trouble understanding the huge price Jesus paid. He suffered in His soul and rose again.
Isaiah 53:10-11:
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. --NIV 11

Isaiah 53:10-11: (KJV)
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Minister Monardo said:

As I posted earlier, His words point directly to the Psalm which point directly at Him, but they did not see.
I don't think He was asking for Elijah, I don't know what Temple leaders would have thought. All I know is that Psalm details were being played out before their eyes and they still did not see. He once told them 'Search the scriptures for in them you think you find life, and they testify of me'. Does Psalm 22 do that? And yet, only a Roman centurion came to the conclusion that 'surely this is the Son of God'.
Could this have been Cornelius?

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You said: “they still did not see…”, but in the past when Jesus point out specific scripture and/or logically explained something the religious leaders did understand and even complimented him on his wisdom. I do think the religious leaders were caught up in the moment and joined in those who were mocking Christ and not relating it to Psalms 22, but after Jesus brought to their minds Psalms 22 they did realize he was fulfilling scripture and would have stopped mocking Him. One thief made a complete turn around in just minutes.

zoidar said:

At least Jesus was forsaken in the meaning the Father let him be crucified. Also Jesus prays to the Father: "Into your hands I commit my spirit" which logically means there was still a connection between the Father and the Son.

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If your son volunteered for a suicide mission and you allowed him to go, would you have forsaken your son?

childeye 2 said:

I was walking in despair because I hated myself and my burden of sin was great. And my only comfort was that there were others with burdens greater than my own, and so I loathed myself all the more.

Then a man came to me holding a cup filled with the blood of the son of God which had been shed through great torture. And he said, drink from this cup and you will be renewed and live forever.

And I saw judgment at the cup. For if this son of God suffered torture and death so that I might be spared from a cruel and merciless prosecuter, I'd better drink from it so that his suffering will not have been in vain. But if it is to escape the righteous judgment that I have coming to me, then I would rather die in my sins than be willing to harm one hair on his precious head for my gain.

Click to expand...

Your thinking is right, but you like I could not willingly remain on that cross knowing we could free ourselves in the next second. All you can do is accept the pure loving discipline of the cross, by being crucified empathetically with Christ. God and Christ have gone through all this to provide a Loving way for you to be justly and Lovingly disciplined.

Anthony7 said:

No that's okay, I'll stick with what scripture says.

Jesus did become sin:


Jesus did take our punishment in our place, and experienced complete separation:

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This brings up the huge topic of Atonement, which takes a book to explain.
Let me ask you just this:
Jesus just prior to saying: "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" was really being asked by the religious leaders: "You saved other so why can't you save yourself and come down from the cross and we will believe you", so what is the answer? Is Jesus saying: "you are right, I can't come down because God has forsaken me" or would Christ say: "I must stay to fulfill all prophecies concerning the suffering Messiah like you find in Psalms 22"?

bling said:

Your thinking is right, but you like I could not willingly remain on that cross knowing we could free ourselves in the next second.

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Why not?

All you can do is accept the pure loving discipline of the cross, by being crucified empathetically with Christ. God and Christ have gone through all this to provide a Loving way for you to be justly and Lovingly disciplined.

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What do you mean by empathetically? Do we not have our own real cross to carry albeit metaphorically, no matter how small?