God's Decree

renniks

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He not only brought about the events that led Israel to rebel, without participating in their sin, but he also had control over their response to the warnings preached by the prophets:

"Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” - Isaiah 6:10

God refused to allow them to be healed, as said above. He made them remain in the same stubborn, rebellious disposition, but for how long?

"Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste, and the LORD removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled.” - Isaiah 6:11-13

God was behind the scenes, working out all these things. However, God is not responsible for the evil in their hearts, nor their actions.
Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and people of Judah,
judge between me and my vineyard.
4 What more could have been done for my vineyard
than I have done for it?
When I looked for good grapes,
why did it yield only bad?
5 Now I will tell you
what I am going to do to my vineyard:
I will take away its hedge,
and it will be destroyed;I
and it will be trampled.
6 I will make it a wasteland...

Funny, God says he did all he could to have good fruit from his people. Only after this, did he judge them. Did God cause them to do wrong, then punish them for it? Not according to him.
 
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renniks

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Well, if that bothers you, what if I were to say that he looked down through the corridors of time and saw the things you mentioned, and did nothing to prevent it, that which he hates? Your response would make God inactive in what he could have clearly prevented. The biblical response is that there was a good purpose in such tragic events. I say, the former almost makes God sound deistic and/or sadistic.
Seriously? You see causing evil as less evil then not preventing it?
If this is the best possible world, evil was inevitable as a negative to God's positive, but did not come from his hand. Allowing wrong behavior is better than causing it, in anyone's book.
 
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Neogaia777

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In other words God - in puppetlike fashion control people to sin.

To Calvinists it's a paradox. To rational people it's a contradiction.
It's not a contradiction or a paradox, if you understand the Trinity, the real true Trinity, and that God the Father made and caused/causes it all, to, in time, create real true beings, with real true free will, like Him, who could truly be and become one with Him or that One, and in time, truly be or become like Him...

This requires some dealings with evil, at least at the start, and the Father God knew/knows/always knew this, still knows this, etc...

There is a much higher purpose and plan involved here that requires us to have some dealings with evil first, etc...

And that plan is much better and much higher than you can possibly imagine, and all this will pale in comparison, when it is brought to it's true and highest and fullest completion...

God Bless!
 
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FredVB

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

I don't really need scriptures for where there is logical contradiction that I disagree with. There is human choice, which God even calls us to. There is Peter's statement, God is not willing that any perish, but would that all would come to repentance, with which there is salvation in Christ, that they would not perish. This would contradict that everything that ever occurs is from God's decree, so that I won't believe that. What we choose, which God calls us to, is not determined from God, even while God does know all that we do.

Neogaia777 said:
It's not a contradiction or a paradox, if you understand the Trinity, the real true Trinity, and that God the Father made and caused/causes it all, to, in time, create real true beings, with real true free will, like Him, who could truly be and become one with Him or that One, and in time, truly be or become like Him...

This requires some dealings with evil, at least at the start, and the Father God knew/knows/always knew this, still knows this, etc...

There is a much higher purpose and plan involved here that requires us to have some dealings with evil first, etc...

And that plan is much better and much higher than you can possibly imagine, and all this will pale in comparison, when it is brought to it's true and highest and fullest completion...

That God knows all does not mean God causes evil, or that evil is from God's perfect will. There is not scriptures for that, as was asked for. God knows about evil, and cannot stand to look upon it, and will deal with every sin. Christ bore the judgment on sins of all of those of us who are or who will be believers, the rest, who do not come to repentance which is with faith coming to salvation in Christ will be under God's judgment themselves, and perish from the benevolence provided for in this life.

We who are believers will come into blissful relationship with God forever, but it would not be full union with God to that Christ has as God.
 
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Hawkins

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689
Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

Wrong premise. God has all the ability not to know those in hell. He has the ability to ignore them completely as part of His omnipotence. That's why hell is referred to a permanent separation from God.
 
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FredVB

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Hawkins said:
God has all the ability not to know those in hell. He has the ability to ignore them completely as part of His omnipotence. That's why hell is referred to a permanent separation from God.

You know, God can do anything but God does not do things which violate God's own nature. God truly knows all things about reality. Those God does not know is not about that knowledge, but about how we know another personally.
 
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FredVB

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God is perfect in goodness, without limit, it includes all the unlimited knowledge, the perfect justice, and patient love with compassion and mercy. These are all things for us to aspire to, but we always need to come to God., the way it was provided for.
 
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BobRyan

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"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."​

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.
Gen 6;
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Isaiah 5:
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

James 1:13 No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

God never "decrees" that someone should take His name in vain, or that someone should serve other gods or that someone should do evil. He forsees it - but does not "decree" it. To decree is to command someone to do good or evil.

He decrees free will.

IT is not logical to make statements like "God does A, without also knowing B" when both A and B are parts of reality.
 
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Hammster

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Gen 6;
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Isaiah 5:
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

James 1:13 No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

God never "decrees" that someone should take His name in vain, or that someone should serve other gods or that someone should do evil. He forsees it - but does not "decree" it. To decree is to command someone to do good or evil.

He decrees free will.

IT is not logical to make statements like "God does A, without also knowing B" when both A and B are parts of reality.
God commands free will?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Gen 6;
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

Isaiah 5:
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

James 1:13 No one is to say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

God never "decrees" that someone should take His name in vain, or that someone should serve other gods or that someone should do evil. He forsees it - but does not "decree" it. To decree is to command someone to do good or evil.

He decrees free will.

IT is not logical to make statements like "God does A, without also knowing B" when both A and B are parts of reality.
Man, you are all over the place here!

If God's decree is God's command, then it isn't a command given with a choice on the part of the fact being commanded. It is not the sort of command that requires obedience by the will of the fact commanded.

God, as omnipotent, first cause, decrees what is and what will be. But your last sentence contradicts your theology! It indeed is "not logical to make statements like "God does A, without also knowing B" when both A and B are parts of reality." God does no thing without knowing every thing. But what you espouse pretends that God doesn't know B, when he created A. Or maybe you can explain why he can know B, and still set into motion the chain of events that will lead to B, without causing B.

As for your first two Bible references, Genesis 6 and Isaiah 5, look up the term, "anthropomorphism". Do a search —"anthropomorphism in Scriptures". And James 1:13 is not denied by the Reformers' claim concerning God's decree.
 
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FredVB

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God commands free will?

More like, created us with free will, that we ourselves choose in things. In many places in the Bible God says to choose, and yes, God commands that all should repent, Acts 17:30, and so they would choose to do so or not, as not all are repenting.
 
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Hammster

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More like, created us with free will, that we ourselves choose in things. In many places in the Bible God says to choose, and yes, God commands that all should repent, Acts 17:30, and so they would choose to do so or not, as not all are repenting.
I see. He just starts is off and hopes for the best. He really got lucky that the cross happened.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I see. He just starts is off and hopes for the best. He really got lucky that the cross happened.
Serendipitous! What's amazing is that, by mere accident, the very people who God chose, chose him!
 
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Hammster

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Serendipitous! What's amazing is that, by mere accident, the very people who God chose, chose him!
1683111074159.gif
 
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Hawkins

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God is perfect in goodness, without limit, it includes all the unlimited knowledge, the perfect justice, and patient love with compassion and mercy. These are all things for us to aspire to, but we always need to come to God., the way it was provided for.

What people actually have an issue is about God omniscience. They mistakenly take God's omniscience as something uncontrollable. They take that God cannot resist but being forced to know everything. That's not truth. God has all the ability to choose not to know something His will doesn't want to know. His omniscience is subject to His omnipotence, it's not something out of God's control.
 
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