Why do Many Christians Ignore YHWH's Moedim?

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Billy UK

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What law is this? Let's look at what Paul said in Romans:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.



Now I don't believe that Paul had mental issues. Obviously "Works of Law" is something different than the Torah.

Paul kept the Torah:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Titus 3:9-11

But avoid foolish and ill-informed and stupid controversies and genealogies and dissensions and quarrels about the Law, for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 After a first and second warning reject a divisive man [who promotes heresy and causes dissension—ban him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him], 11 well aware that such a person is twisted and is sinning; he is convicted and self-condemned [and is gratified by causing confusion among believers].​
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Jesus who is YHWH said


Matthew 15:11-20 (KJV)

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:​

Why do you leave out important verses, they provide important context. The whole section was not about eating kosher or not but about eating with unwashed hands. The Pharsees ask "why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread". It is not against Torah to eat bread. Yeshua asks them "why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?" and tells them "ye have made void the word of God (Torah) because of your tradition."
 
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Der Alte

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I read down to here:
It's Ironic that you criticize William Vine as a scholar, when either you, or your source cites the The Epistle of Barnabus as a refutation, a pseudograph, written by a mystic. It is unknown who wrote the letter, where it was written, where it was sent, nor who it was sent to; and whoever put Barnabas' name on it was a liar.
It appears to me that you are not interested in facts. It is ironic that you only read what you wanted to read and ignored everything else which included writings of the ECF which are not questioned. This is typical of heterodox beliefs, they only see what they want to see. I just checked 5-6 sources online including Brittanica and did not find one which supports what you said. What is your source for that information.? I notice you did not address my comments on the errors in Vine's. I will repeat it for you.
"The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt."
This is totally false and a scholar such as Vine should have known that. The writing of Chaldea was "Cuneiform," wedge shaped, there was no "T" or Tau of any kind including mystic. The writing of Egypt was hieroglyphics, pictures again no "T" or "Tau" mystic or otherwise.
From Eusebius who lived concurrent with Constantine and wrote for him.
"A Description of the Standard of the Cross, which the Romans now call the Labarum." "Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. "
upload_2020-4-6_18-28-35.png
 
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HARK!

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Is the mention of "a thousand years" in Revelation 20 is to be taken literally to mean a literal one thousand years?

That chapter repeatedly uses figure of speech and symbol after figure and symbol. So am I to understand that in a chapter filled with symbolic imagery three words out of that highly figurative passage should be taken literally while treating everything else is read figuratively as intended?

Or is it thought the devil is actually, literally a dragon?
Is it thought there is an actual literal abyss that can contain the actual literal dragon?
Is it understood what John is reporting is a vision?

When Psalm 50 states God owns the cattle on a thousand hills does that mean there are an actual literal thousand hills on which God actually literally owns the actual literal cattle? Does God not also own all the cattle on hills 1001, 1002, 10003, 100004 and all the cattle on all hills because He created all the hills and all the cattle that have ever existed?



Do you know, are you aware, the idea the 1000 years of Revelation 20 should be taken literally is a relatively new invention in Christian thought, doctrine, and practice? Do you know and are you aware it is not only a relatively new invention (less than 200 years old) but it is also a minority view?


Swodmanjr is correct: you have a serious problem with exegesis.


The thousand years of Revelation 20 began with the binding of satan at Calvary and continues to this day. It is not a literal 1000 years. According to Jude 1:6, satan has always been bound. That is the context for his binding in Revelation 20. This has long been the position of Christendom and it was not until the apocalyptic movements of the early- to mid-1800s that any other view was considered, much less considered orthodox and mainstream.



If what I have posted hasn't been understood then give some of the following a read,
.
"The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views" edited by Robert Clouse.​
.
In this book four different noted theologians weigh in on the nature of the "millennium." Read this book with you Bible in the other hand, opened, and used, as you compare those authors' use and abuse of scripture to prove their respective positions. You'll be surprised.
.
"Four Views on the Book of Revelation" edited by Stanley Gundry.
"Five View on Law and Gospel" edited by Stanley Gundry
"Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond" edited by Stanley Gundry
"Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament" edited by Stanley Gundry
"Three Views on Hell" edited by Stanley Gundry​

The above are all from the Zondervan Counterpoint Series wherein theologians from differing points of view make the case for that view. Each author also provides a critique of the alternative views.
.
"The Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger
"He Shall Hav Dominion" by Kenneth Gentry
"The Blessed Hope" by George Eldon Ladd
"Last Days Madness" by Gary Demar
.
Each of these books addresses one of the prominent eschatological views held since the NT era. Others have popped up afterwards. In these books you will see how and why the idead I've read supporting this op aren't just a matter of opinion but cannot be once the Bible is examined exegetically. Pay particular attention to Riddlebarger's exegesis because although I don't agree with all of his conclusions his handling of scripture is impressive; nearly impeccable. The Demar book is a blunt treatment of modern-day false prognosticators.




it bolis down to this: based on the posts I have here read, it is evident you don't know how the Bible teaches us the festivals have been fulfilled. Before I posted in this op I surveyed the web to view various sources for the idea the festivals are yet to be fulfilled so I understand your perspective is common. Common is not necessarily correct. What's common is not necessarily orthodox nor mainstreem. You, apparently - based on the evidence in these posts - don't have much knowledge of the alternatives, nor and understanding of how alternatives could even possibly exist.

AND the conversational skills necessary to learn that information is lacking.

So I'm going to give you one last opportunity to give me a reason to stick around and walk through scripture with you before I conclude you qualify for Titus 3:9-11 and move on to other ops. That's it. One last chance. So resist the urge to digress and ask me something or give me commentary with which I can work op-relevantly. Resist the urge to add another fallacy response. The goal here is,


a polite and respectful, reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent, topical case from well-reasoned scripture...


...and it should be recognized from the outset that logically you're at a disadvantage because you're trying to prove a negative.[/INDENT]

Apparently you are missing the whole point of bringing prophesy into the discussion.

It's not about how many cattle will be standing on how many hills.

I have no interested in watching you take the subject of this thread down endless philosophical bunny holes.

This can be remedied quite simply by answering one simple question with a yes or no answer.

Do you believe that there is, to date, ANY unfulfilled prophesy?
 
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HARK!

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I answered that with scripture. Since you don't regard the word of God in context, I don't know what else to say. Jesus defeated Satan in the wilderness by pointing only at what is written, not by intellect.

Words have no meaning unless you define them. Apparently you haven't made the effort to do that; or you could have given me a definition.
 
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Billy UK

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Why do you leave out important verses, they provide important context. The whole section was not about eating kosher or not but about eating with unwashed hands. The Pharsees ask "why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread". It is not against Torah to eat bread. Yeshua asks them "why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?" and tells them "ye have made void the word of God (Torah) because of your tradition."


What part of the Word NOTHING do you fail to understand. Do I need to post the meaning of the word Nothing for you or can you comprehend the meaning of this English word ?

Mark 7:15-23
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

 
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HARK!

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Oh, yeah? Well, since we're pulling verses out of context, we can play that game together....:

[Luk 7:50 KJV] 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

[Luk 18:42 KJV] 42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

See? I had three of them, so mine must be more correct....

So, is what James said something to be balanced by other verses, or is tit-for-tat a better foundation to rest upon?

It's a given that a TRUE faith will indeed be rooted in it having an outlfow of good works. I simply cannot fathom a faith that has any measure of being genuine that does not involve and outflow of good works. Perhaps there are those who do believe otherwise, but it's foreign to my thinking, so I don't know why we're even addressing this.

What's at issue here, perhaps, is the need to ask a question:

How and what commandments are you demanding should be followed today. When you point at the Torah as a whole, you can't be serious if your case is such that you're on the side of DOING all those laws. That's the tone of your appeals. Not even YESHUA was a DOER of all the Law. The proof of that is in the simple reading of what's actually written.

So, pray tell, what commands are those that we should all be DOERS for keeping?

Jr

First off, James didn't say "good works." He said works.

I'm not demanding that you keep any of YHWH's commandments.

Sin is transgression of the law. If Yahshua didn't keep all of the law; he sinned.

What proof do you have that Yahshua didn't keep all of YHWH's law?
 
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Josheb

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Then read it again because obviously you do not understand what it says...for all of the law and the prophets prophesied until John the Baptist. It disproves your point completely.
That would preclude Jesus from being a prophet. And since all the law and the prophets testified about Jesus, your position can't be true.


The question asked was, "When the NT prophets and writers render the OT prophets do you take that as a measure of prophecy?" and the answer given was "Matthew 12:13." That answer is an NT prophet rendering the OT prophets. You have appealed to the NT writer Matthew to answer the question! You've measured the OT prophets by the NT.

So the answer to the question asked, "When the NT prophets and writers render the OT prophets do you take that as a measure of prophecy?" is "Yes, Josh, I do take the NT prophets as a measure of the OT prophets," although perhaps it wasn't realized as such.

My point was decisively proven not just in content but also in method.
 
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Josheb

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Apparently you are missing the whole point of bringing prophesy into the discussion. It's not about how many cattle will be standing on how many hills.
No, it's about the fact the "thousand years" is not a literal millennium. It's about the fact the Bible never mentions the word "millennium."
This can be remedied quite simply by answering one simple question with a yes or no answer.

Do you believe that there is, to date, ANY unfulfilled prophesy?
Yes. None of them are moedim, though.
I have no interested in watching you take the subject of this thread down endless philosophical bunny holes.
Good, then practice what you preach and stick to what scripture says when rendered with itself. I was asked about the millennium and I addressed the millennium, and I did so quite diversely. In return I get non sequitur.

My reply to this op is to inform you the moedim have in fact all been fulfilled and your response to my response is straw men, false dichotomies, gas lighting, and non sequitur. I have repeatedly asked you not to post fallacy. I have repeatedly asked you to post relevant to your own op.

Titus 3:9-11 ESV
"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

For all the good your views may have done you they have not made you a better poster or a better believer. Practice is as important as content. See you in the next op, hoping by then knowing how to stay on topic and avoid fallacy has been learned.
 
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HARK!

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So in your view one must become ger tzedek?

That is the goal. Abraham was lead in faith. His obedience perfected his faith.

This is entered in via faith in Jesus but upheld and kept in place by observing the Torah?

Those who are in faith, believe what YHWH says. If they believe; their actions will reflect that.

And if one does not observe the Torah, what happens?

The consequences are outlined in the Torah. The remedies vary.
 
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I have plenty of sincere questions that I've asked you elswhere but you never answer them. For instance. Does being circumcised make one more justified in the sight of God than being uncircumcised. Answer this in your own words clearly and without ambiguity. I think you're afraid however to expose your views on this point.

If you reject YHWH's word; outward circumcision means nothing. If you are circumcised of heart; outward circumcision, in faith, is a sign of the covenant of Abraham.

My question is, "why would you request my words, over scripture?"

Gen 17

10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you.


(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
 
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HARK!

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You're avoiding the essence of what I'm saying. Does me following Kosher make me more justified?

I don't believe that following the traditions of men necessarily make anyone more justified before YHWH. I follow Torah.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If you reject YHWH's word; outward circumcision means nothing. If you are circumcised of heart; outward circumcision, in faith, is a sign of the covenant of Abraham.

My question is, "why would you request my words, over scripture?"

Gen 17

10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you.


(CLV) Ro 2:25
For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

I request your words because scripture can be interpreted any number of ways. Instead all I can do when you post a scriptural verse is intry to interpret that verse through what I think is your lens of understanding. It's an obnoxious way of debating and makes genuine communication harder if not impossible.

Now, please answer clearly, does circumcision make one more justified in the eyes of God?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I don't believe that following the traditions of men necessarily make anyone more justified before YHWH. I follow Torah.
Again avoiding the question. Are you so ashamed of your theology? Why do you want to obfuscate it?
 
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HARK!

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Was the covenant renewed with Jesus and is now a universal covenant?

I don't understand your question

What are the necessary conditions of entering this covenant?

Agreement to the terms.


It seems to me the necessary conditions are to do all the things Jews do that Christians typically do not. Am I mistaken?

Considering that most Jews are not following the torah; I would disagree. Why do you keep making this about the Jews instead of YHWH?

Why aren't you a Jew yet?

Either I am a jew; or I'll never be one. I can't change my ancestry.

What prohibits you from becoming part of God's covenanted people?

Your failure to agree to the terms of the covenant.

So God's feasts in the Old testament are for everyone to follow without exception?

No. They are for Israel to follow. As a matter of fact, in the case of Passover, it is prohibited to observe it unless you are circumcised.

This is wordplay if I've ever seen it. You obviously do follow Kosher because that is the law of the Torah. Be honest.

Kosher expands on the Torah. Yahshua rebuked the traditions of men. Stop making false accusations.

Right, you just want us to be circumcised, Eat Kosher food and practice in the way modern Jews do. You totally don't want others to become Jewish.

Everything in this statement is nonsense. Again, stop bearing false witness. I want others to come to YHWH, through Yahshua.

They only the words of the conclusion I must reach based on what your saying. You are telling us that we must follow all the prescriptive ceremonial aspects of the Old Law

The word was from the beginning. Then it was made flesh to give you an example to follow. If you choose not to follow; that's your choice. I'm not making any demands.

but this has nothing to do with being Jewish.

Again, why do you focus on the Jews, instead of YHWH's word?

This would mean that to be Jewish is merely an ethnicity, not anything religious. What else can I conclude?

It means both; but their relationship with YHWH is theirs. Yours is yours. You really seem to be obsessed with Jews.
 
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Matthew 15:11-20 (KJV)

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:​

I don't consider the Talmud to be YHWH's law. Do you?
 
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It appears to me that you are not interested in facts. It is ironic that you only read what you wanted to read and ignored everything else which included writings of the ECF which are not questioned. This is typical of heterodox beliefs, they only see what they want to see. I just checked 5-6 sources online including Brittanica and did not find one which supports what you said. What is your source for that information.? I notice you did not address my comments on the errors in Vine's. I will repeat it for you.
"The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt."
This is totally false and a scholar such as Vine should have known that. The writing of Chaldea was "Cuneiform," wedge shaped, there was no "T" or Tau of any kind including mystic. The writing of Egypt was hieroglyphics, pictures again no "T" or "Tau" mystic or otherwise.
From Eusebius who lived concurrent with Constantine and wrote for him.
"A Description of the Standard of the Cross, which the Romans now call the Labarum." "Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. "
View attachment 274335

Thanks for posting the picture. It supports my argument. You have obviously done very little research on this subject.


Ptolemy.jpeg


Here are a few more sources for you:

Dr. Bullinger, in the Companion Bible, appx. 162, states,

"crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god (Tammuz)... It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper ... The evidence is thus complete, that Yahusha was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle."

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205,

frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol ... the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah ... the mystic Tau of the Cladeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians - the true original form of the letter T the initial of the name of Tammuz ... the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz."

In the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273,

"In the Egyption churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the pagan-Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolized by a hammer, while the Roman Pagans had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman Cross.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1

The smooth generalisation, which so many historians are content to repeat, that Constantine "embraced the Christian religion" and subsequently granted "official toleration", is "contrary to historical fact" and should be erased from our literature forever (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. iii, p. 299, passim).

I don't want to take this thread down a bunny hole on this point. I could go on posting evidence all day long. If you would like to discuss this further; I'll accept your invitation to a thread on the subject. This subject is least of my concerns.
 
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Again avoiding the question. Are you so ashamed of your theology? Why do you want to obfuscate it?

Again, I don't follow the Talmud. If you wish to; that's your choice.
 
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What part of the Word NOTHING do you fail to understand. Do I need to post the meaning of the word Nothing for you or can you comprehend the meaning of this English word ?

Mark 7:15-23
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.​

If someone falsely accused you of taking things in their home; would you take a breath before you told them that you took nothing?

Context is key!
 
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