What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

Astrophile

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The universe was created. We know that and the evolutionary theorists agree with that. If it wasn't then we're going to have to start arguing about whether it exists or not.

Not necessarily. Most cosmologists accept that the universe, in its present state, is not infinitely old. That is not the same thing as saying that the universe was created.
 
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46AND2

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God exists by the necessity of His own nature.

Its impossible for God not to exist.

The problem with answers like this is that it is entirely manufactured in order for it to sound convincing to yourself. And you can do that because you can literally describe god any way that you like.

But when we see explanations like that, they don't make sense. If we dig into your description, it falls apart. For example: you mentioned that god is like numbers and abstract ideas that exist without cause. When we asked why the universe could not be such a thing, you said that a universe can potentially not exist. Yet, we can't see how abstract ideas and numbers can exist if there is no universe that they describe. When asked how you know god is not somebody's abstract idea, you said that abstract ideas don't create anything. So...basically, you are contradicting your original claim that he is like abstract ideas and numbers, because you will always have an exception when we press you on it. In other words, he is NOT like abstract ideas and numbers. And the fact that there are always exceptions, sir, is a special pleading fallacy.

When it boils down to it, you will have an answer for everything that we ask, because you can define god in any way that makes sense TO YOU. You can't demonstrate that he IS that description, you just assert he is.
 
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solid_core

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The problem with answers like this is that it is entirely manufactured in order for it to sound convincing to yourself. And you can do that because you can literally describe god any way that you like.

But when we see explanations like that, they don't make sense. If we dig into your description, it falls apart. For example: you mentioned that god is like numbers and abstract ideas that exist without cause. When we asked why the universe could not be such a thing, you said that a universe can potentially not exist. Yet, we can't see how abstract ideas and numbers can exist if there is no universe that they describe. When asked how you know god is not somebody's abstract idea, you said that abstract ideas don't create anything. So...basically, you are contradicting your original claim that he is like abstract ideas and numbers, because you will always have an exception when we press you on it. In other words, he is NOT like abstract ideas and numbers. And the fact that there are always exceptions, sir, is a special pleading fallacy.

When it boils down to it, you will have an answer for everything that we ask, because you can define god in any way that makes sense TO YOU. You can't demonstrate that he IS that description, you just assert he is.

I do not think that God can be demonstrated more than the manufacturer of a car and creator of all electronics in it can be somehow "demonstrated".

God is simply the most natural and the most logical conclusion/explanation.

No logical argument can give you true faith. True faith needs, of course, more. Logical arguments can only give you an intelectual solution. If you do not like "my" definition of God, then its OK, I like it (its actually not originally mine).
 
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Tinker Grey

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God exists by the necessity of His own nature.

Its impossible for God not to exist.
The universe is the set of all that is. It is impossible for the set of all that is to not exist. Ergo, the universe exists by necessity of its own nature.
 
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solid_core

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The universe is the set of all that is. It is impossible for the set of all that is to not exist. Ergo, the universe exists by necessity of its own nature.
If you define universe in this way, you included God and abstract ideas to be "universe" and therefor you are right.

If we define universe in the way its all matter, space and time we live in, such universe had a beginning and is not needed to exist at all.
 
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Tinker Grey

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If you define universe in this way, you included God and abstract ideas to be "universe" and therefor you are right.

If we define universe in the way its all matter, space and time we live in, such universe had a beginning and is not needed to exist at all.
Why would you think that there was ever a time when there was nothing? What should I imagine that nothing is possible? If there was always something, there was always a universe. No need for gods.
 
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Larniavc

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So, biblical creationists have to satisfy deluded evolutionists while not using God or the scriptures. Got it.
Yes. That’s exactly it. If Christian Creationism was correct it would be possible to provide evidence to show that it was true.

As yet that evidence has not been provided.
 
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solid_core

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Why would you think that there was ever a time when there was nothing? What should I imagine that nothing is possible? If there was always something, there was always a universe. No need for gods.
I do not think there was ever "nothing". God has always been existing with all abstract ideas and possible worlds in His mind.

If you are talking about our physical universe, it did not exist 15 billion years ago. Its scientifically accepted.
 
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46AND2

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God is simply the most natural and the most logical conclusion/explanation.

Then why can no theist ever explain this logic? Every definition of god I have ever seen requires defying logic.

No logical argument can give you true faith. True faith needs, of course, more. Logical arguments can only give you an intelectual solution.

What you really mean is that faith requires accepting that which is not logical.
 
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Speedwell

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If you define universe in this way, you included God and abstract ideas to be "universe" and therefor you are right.

If we define universe in the way its all matter, space and time we live in, such universe had a beginning and is not needed to exist at all.
We don't know that it had a beginning. The known laws of physics can be used to calculate the characteristics of the universe in detail back in time to an initial state of extreme density and temperature. But that is not necessarily a "beginning."
 
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Tinker Grey

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I do not think there was ever "nothing". God has always been existing with all abstract ideas and possible worlds in His mind.

If you are talking about our physical universe, it did not exist 15 billion years ago. Its scientifically accepted.
No it's not. That we don't know the state of affairs prior to 13.8 billion years is accepted. That the nothing physical existed is not accepted.
 
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solid_core

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Then why can no theist ever explain this logic?
Which "this" logic?

Every definition of god I have ever seen requires defying logic.
What you really mean is that faith requires accepting that which is not logical.

Yes, definition of god (small g) is against logic. Because gods do not exist.

Defining one true God (capital G) is quite natural, logical and standard position in philosophy for 2,500 years.
 
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solid_core

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No it's not. That we don't know the state of affairs prior to 13.8 billion years is accepted. That the nothing physical existed is not accepted.
Not sure what you mean. What physical nothing are you talking about and why?
 
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solid_core

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We don't know that it had a beginning. The known laws of physics can be used to calculate the characteristics of the universe in detail back in time to an initial state of extreme density and temperature. But that is not necessarily a "beginning."
Microwave backround radiation proved in 1960 that the Universe had a beginning.
 
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Speedwell

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Microwave backround radiation proved in 1960 that the Universe had a beginning.
No, it did not. It gave evidence that the universe has expanded from a state of extreme density and temperature. That's all.
 
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GodsGrace101

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In that case, why did God put Venus and Mercury closer to the Sun (where they are too hot for life) and Mars farther away from the Sun (where it is too cold for life)? Why did God create so many hot Jupiters and so few planetary systems similar to the Sun's?

Also, your statement is not entirely accurate. Mercury is much closer to the Sun than the Earth is, but it has ice in craters near to its poles.
No one lives on Mercury or Venus or Mars.
It matters not that Mercury is closer to the sun.
I think you misunderstood my post.
Earth is THE PERFECT PLACE for humans.
It seems to be PERFECTLY MADE FOR US.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Paley introduced the analogy of the watch in his 1802 book Natural Theology or the Evidence of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity. Darwin was a great admire of Paley, taking a copy of the book with him on the voyage of the Beagle. If I recall correctly he used some of the structure of that work in planning the layout of On the Origin of Species.
Looks like a great book! Will get it if I can.
I used to play a game with my brother in times past:
WHAT DID GOD CREATE FIRST?:
forks and knives (our fingers)
carpeting (grass)
and so many other things I can't even remember right now.

Eyes, as a telescope was one of them.
And I've always thought eyes disprove macroevolution.
What was happening to animals while eyes were being created? Were they totally blind? Did they begin to see in stages - a little at a time? Exactly how would that have worked?

And the same for ears....were all animals deaf at one time...

Too many question come up with the theory of evolution.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Not now there isn't. There was, it was refuted.

So why would you give credence to an idea that has no supporting evidence?



They reason. And you should have said "other apes".



Probably none of us have "spirit". Another concept that no one can define properly or find evidence for. But of course other apes reason. They may not reason as well as we do but one cannot call it anything else.
Oh,,,I don't believe we are apes.
I think this idea has hindered the growth of children that have been taught this.

I think humanity is a special species and no other animal is like us.

We know we can get sick.
We know we are going to die.
We feel empathy (not compassion, animals can feel compassion).
We think about the after life.
We have a memory of important things that have happened in our lives.
We're aware of a higher power or we wouldn't be arguing about it.

A Christian can define SPIRIT,,,it's just that atheists do not accept it.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If God made us, where did HE come from?
It's a problem both ways.
It just seems easier to believe that God made everything.

If God is a first cause...then He always had to exist.
Both are difficult to understand...
That all this could come from nothing...
That all this was created by a being that always existed.
 
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