Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

jgr said:

Feel free to attempt to disprove the genetics and the math.

But be careful that you don't offend the Jews.

They're the ones providing most of the information that I've cited.

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If you believe you are a Jew, good. Paul always said, to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

jgr said:

How is AD27-34 future?

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Ad 27 is not future. It is the 70th week that is future! If you wish to dwell on ancient history, be my guest. I am preparing for the future. I am "looking up" for our redemption is getting very close. Experts on earth's chronology believe we are very close to the year 6000 - in spite of the Jews calculations.

iamlamad said:

Early church writers wrote of the catching away before tribulation.

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Evidence?

iamlamad said:

Jgr, people have probably been disagreeing on this since Paul wrote of the rapture.

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Evidence from the historical true Church?

iamlamad said:

If you believe you are a Jew, good. Paul always said, to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

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I, you, and the entire human race are genetically both Jew and Gentile.

Genetically irrelevant in Christ.

iamlamad said:

Ad 27 is not future. It is the 70th week that is future! If you wish to dwell on ancient history, be my guest. I am preparing for the future. I am "looking up" for our redemption is getting very close. Experts on earth's chronology believe we are very close to the year 6000 - in spite of the Jews calculations.

Click to expand...

The 70th week is chronologically and prophetically AD27-34.

It is the watershed week of all history, in which our Savior gave Himself for our salvation and redemption.

If it is still future, humanity is still in its sin.

I'm not still in my sin.

Because of what Christ did in the 70th week.

How about you?

jgr said:

Evidence?



Evidence from the historical true Church?

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I am sure you have heard of early church writers.

Ever read this before:
We ought to understand thoroughly, therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. . . . Why therefore we do not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world. . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

Do some homework: find out when these words were penned.

jgr said:

The 70th week is chronologically and prophetically AD27-34.

It is the watershed week of all history, in which our Savior gave Himself for our salvation and redemption.

If it is still future, humanity is still in its sin.

I'm not still in my sin.

Because of what Christ did in the 70th week.

How about you?

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If you wish to dwell in the past, go for it!
What Jesus did was between the 69th week and the 70th. Go back and study Daniel 9 again. You are in error.

jgr said:

I, you, and the entire human race are genetically both Jew and Gentile.

Genetically irrelevant in Christ.

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Why then is God looking for the fulness of the Gentiles?

iamlamad said:

I am sure you have heard of early church writers.

Ever read this before:
We ought to understand thoroughly, therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. . . . Why therefore we do not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world. . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

Do some homework: find out when these words were penned.

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Do your own homework: They were penned after the original document.

Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of these documents, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

For those who insist on citing Pseudo-Ephraem, the original Syriac version is unquestionably the more credible.

It is also unquestionably not pretrib.

iamlamad said:

If you wish to dwell in the past, go for it!
What Jesus did was between the 69th week and the 70th. Go back and study Daniel 9 again. You are in error.

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Daniel and Jesus are not in error.

Are you still in your sin?

jgr said:

Do your own homework: They were penned after the original document.

Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of these documents, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

For those who insist on citing Pseudo-Ephraem, the original Syriac version is unquestionably the more credible.

It is also unquestionably not pretrib.

Click to expand...

In ANY case, Pseudo-Ephraem: was written long before 1830. Whoever wrote this version believed in a pretrib rapture.

I think any good reader would conclude these are two entirely different texts, not two translations of one text.

However, not of this means much, because Paul originated the pretrib rapture. He was definitely first century. But you won't believe Paul.

jgr said:

Daniel and Jesus are not in error.

Are you still in your sin?

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I am not. I doubt if you are either. it is a silly question.
Here, allow me to assist:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [so at this time 69 weeks have past.]
26 And after threescore and two weeks [note: NOT into the 70th] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [Note: these events are BETWEEN the 69th and 70th week. This includes the 70 AD events.]
(GAP)(We are still in this gap)
27 [Here is finally the 70th week, some unknown time after the 70 AD events.] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Therefore Jesus died and rose again INSIDE the gap: we are both saved from our sins.

iamlamad said:

Here is finally the 70th week, some unknown time after the 70 AD events.

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Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined...

Not 69 weeks and one decapitated undetermined week.

No "gap" of "some unknown time".

All seventy weeks.

Fully determined.

Are you still in your sin?

I'm not.

Because of Christ's full and perfect fulfillment at Calvary of Daniel's fully determined 70th week.

jgr said:

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined...

Not 69 weeks and one decapitated undetermined week.

No "gap" of "some unknown time".

All seventy weeks.

Fully determined.

Are you still in your sin?

I'm not.

Because of Christ's full and perfect fulfillment at Calvary of Daniel's fully determined 70th week.

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OF COURSE all 70 weeks are determined; The future 70th is just as determined as the first 69. The only difference is, the church age was inserted in the gap. You can pretend Daniel did not write a gap, but I showed it to you.

iamlamad said:

In ANY case, Pseudo-Ephraem: was written long before 1830. Whoever wrote this version believed in a pretrib rapture.

I think any good reader would conclude these are two entirely different texts, not two translations of one text.

However, not of this means much, because Paul originated the pretrib rapture. He was definitely first century. But you won't believe Paul.

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From the Latin version which you claim supports pretrib:

"Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil..."

No pretrib there.

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE all 70 weeks are determined; The future 70th is just as determined as the first 69. The only difference is, the church age was inserted in the gap. You can pretend Daniel did not write a gap, but I showed it to you.

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Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
determine
A primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree -- determine.

i.e. 70 weeks are cut off. (Daniel 9:24)

Your prophecy is cut off at 69 weeks, not 70. Your 70th week is a result of decapitation at the 69th week.

It fails to satisfy the prophetic specification.

It is a futurized fantasy and fallacy.

.

iamlamad said:

Why then is God looking for the fulness of the Gentiles?

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Is He?

jgr said:

From the Latin version which you claim supports pretrib:

"Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil..."

No pretrib there.

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Why try to find pretrib in another place in the text when it is so plainly written in the passage I quoted? Even Revelation declares there will saints during the days of GT. But Rev. 12 calls them a remnant.

iamlamad said:

Face it: we live in Satan's world. He is the god of this world.

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Rather, once again Polar opposite to your claims, Scripture says Jesus is the God of this world:

Ephesians 1:20-21
he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come

1 Peter 3:22
[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ...the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Hebrews 2:14-15
He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

1 John 3:8
The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

It's right there.
Quite plainly, Jesus is the God of this world.