DID GOD FORSAKE HIS SON?

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you don't believe that God is sovereign?
I do.

And you also deny that He can allow people to murder someone and still find them guilty of the murder?
No.

God can use men as tools or vessels to pour out His wrath on Jesus.
That's an assertion based on an unproven premise. You might as well conclude that God is not sovereign because He can only use men as tools to pour out His wrath on Jesus.

What is Salvation to you? How is it achieved?
Salvation to me is being saved from destruction. It's achieved by the removal of the law as a means of righteousness and The Holy Spirit coming and renewing the mind.
Is Jesus a propitiation of our sins or not?
Yes according to the requirements of the law.
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,094
726
31
York
✟83,831.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If God is the Master, then why in the story would God be angry at those who killed His Son, if in fact it is Him taking out His wrath?

I am not sure if this is the answer you are looking for but...

God uses bad events for something good. For example He uses something as terrifying as Corona virus for something good, that people live in fear of this pandemic and seek God. God used the most horrifying event in our history (crucifixion of Jesus) and turns it into forgiveness of our sins for those who believe Jesus died for their sins. That however does not excuse the people that murdered Him, just because God used something bad for good, doesn't mean the bad isn't still bad and that those who did the bad are now innocent. Does that make any sense to you?
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani”: “Eli” is Hebrew, the rest Aramaic (Mark 15:34 gives the entire wail in Aramaic). This cry is a fulfillment of (Psalm 22:1), one of many striking parallels between that Psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. Christ at that moment was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath on Him as sin-bearer.

You see, at one point of this crucifixion when Jesus took on the sin of the whole world, God turned His head. God cannot look upon sin that is not covered by the blood. He is pure. God will burn it up. The sacrifice was not completed yet.
Where does God say :

I cannot look upon sin ?

And if you believe Jesus is God then how on earth could He possibly be around any person since every person is a sinner ?

He ( God) came to save sinners, He was a friend of sinners, He was tempted by satan in the wilderness one on one, face to face.
 
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not sure if this is the answer you are looking for but...

God uses bad events for something good. For example He uses something as terrifying as Corona virus for something good, that people live in fear of this pandemic and seek God. God used the most horrifying event in our history (crucifixion of Jesus) and turns it into forgiveness of our sins for those who believe Jesus died for their sins. That however does not excuse the people that murdered Him, just because God used something bad for good, doesn't mean the bad isn't still bad and that those who did the bad are now innocent. Does that make any sense to you?
I believe God uses bad events for good in that we learn from them.

However I would never teach my children or anybody for that matter, that god was so violent and vindictive in character that god wanted to strip them naked, and publicly beat them and scorn them, and mock them and scourge them, and nail them to a cross to watch them die a slow and agonizing death, but Jesus took it instead.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,094
726
31
York
✟83,831.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where does God say :

I cannot look upon sin ?

And if you believe Jesus is God then how on earth could He possibly be around any person since every person is a sinner ?

He ( God) came to save sinners, He was a friend of sinners, He was tempted by satan in the wilderness one on one, face to face.

I see where you are coming from, maybe I did not word it in the best way and thus should have explained it better.

God sees everything that goes on in the world. From the very beginning, God saw that Adam and had sinned, and He saw when Cain killed His brother Abel, and He saw when the people on the earth became so wicked that a flood was going to destroy them all. We could go on and on throughout the Bible to see that God both knows the evil that is going on in the world, and He sees it. God sees every bit of evil in this world.

God can be in the presence of sin. if God cannot look upon sin or evil then God should not have been able to look upon satan, or even allow satan to enter His presence. But according to Job 1, God does both. In fact, far from averting His gaze or blinding His eyes to all the sin and evil that goes on in the world, God dives right into the thick of it. He finds the vilest places, the most terrible times, and the evilest situations, and jumps in there.

I think you agree with all the above. And thus comes the question why would I then say God cannot look upon sin, because I do seem to contradict myself, which I agree it does look like that.

What I implied here and maybe I should have written it in that way is that God is holy and cannot look upon sin without destroying it. Does this make any sense to you?
 
Upvote 0

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,094
726
31
York
✟83,831.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
However I would never teach my children or anybody for that matter, that god was so violent and vindictive in character that god wanted to strip them naked, and publicly beat them and scorn them, and mock them and scourge them, and nail them to a cross to watch them die a slow and agonizing death, but Jesus took it instead.

Yes, He didn't want to do it to His Son, but He had to in order to save us. He didn't do the mocking etc. but had to allow it for our sake. God could have just wipe us out, and He would have every right. God, the trinity would then live in perfect love like before creation, but God loved His creation and wanted to save us thus He had to allow all of this to happen to Jesus
 
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, He didn't want to do it to His Son, but He had to in order to save us. He didn't do the mocking etc. but had to allow it for our sake. God could have just wipe us out, and He would have every right. God, the trinity would then live in perfect love like before creation, but God loved His creation and wanted to save us thus He had to allow all of this to happen to Jesus
If it's god's wrath we're supposed to be seeing then god wanted to do it.

Christ said he came to die to destroy him (the devil) who had the power of death. And elsewhere Paul says that Christ's death took out of the way the ordinances that were against us. Taken together this would imply that Satan (the devil) was using the law to both tempt and accuse, hence he had the power of death and was the one who crucified Jesus. Scripture also said that the Old Testament was administered by angels. In the book of Revelation, it speaks of a dragon waiting to devour the child that was caught up to God. So the story of the vineyard might actually be a condemnation of Satan and his angels.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,158
1,805
✟794,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To everyone so far on this thread: You are missing a lot in your explanation and a lot more can be said:

Matthew 27:46 is often used as a “proof text” scripture to show: God left Christ while on the cross because Christ had become this sinful person or something like that, but that is not what Matt. 27:46 is supporting and is actually supporting just the opposite.

Matt: 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

First off: to interpret any scripture you have to keep 5 things in mind: context, context, context, context and context.

The first contexts to remember is this is said at a particular time, particular place, to a particular audience and by Jesus.

What is being said, or asked, just before Jesus said this statement?

Matt 27: 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

Mark 15:31 In the same way the chief priests and the teachers of the law mocked him among themselves. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! 32 Let this Messiah, this king of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe.”

Did Jesus always give the very best answers to the questions of the Temple leaders?

Even when Jesus was brought before the temple leaders and was accused by false witness and was silent was that not the very best answer he could give at the time?

Did Jesus often use scripture and/or logic to answer the questions of the temple leaders?

In Matthew, Christ used the Hebrew word “Eli” (God), but who at that time and place would know Hebrew?

This is late in the crucifixion, so Christ would have little breath left, so how could He direct these temple leaders to a chapter that would scare them into saying no more since the OT was not numbered? (would the first verse be enough for Old Testament Scholars?

Jesus always refers to God as His “Father”, but here he calls him “God”, but if Jesus had said “Father, Father” he would not be quoting Psalms 22, so did He call Him “God, God” to quote Psalms 22?

If the Temple leaders did realize Jesus was quoting Psalms 22 and remembered what Psalms 22 said, what would be their reaction?

Is Psalms 22 a diatribe question (kind of imaginary debate with both sides being presented and the first side being wrong), because the right answer to why did you leave me is God did not leave him by Psalms 22?

I am out of time but maybe later we can go into why Mark used the Arabic “Eloi, Eloi”?
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,165
3,989
USA
✟629,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lets see.. were born in a fallen world..were talking about a GOD and a realm we truly know nothing about. We do know what had to be in the OT offered for a sacrifice. Yet this "sacrifice" was not just natural but also supernatural. In the garden they were (sin) kicked out. Heaven.. kicked out. We known no sin can enter heaven. We know that we as man serve one or the other... love the one or hate/despise the other.
Seems the only thing you have shown is.. no one fully knows. We keep adding or speculating.

I like this "It was not an exclamation of despair but the words of someone suffering though innocent and still trusting in God for protection "My God my God" and expecting salvation. "
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Our Lord, while He was dying on the cross, was directing us to read that psalm, His crucifixion psalm
James, blessed are you to call attention to this Psalm. While we can see the prophetic nature of that Psalm for our edification, the Holy Spirit made me realize that the content of that Psalm was being played out like Greek theatre before their very eyes! And yet when He said, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani", they responded with "Oh, he is calling for Elijah!".
Missed it?
 
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes He did want to do it, you are right, but He wanted to do it for our own sake. I think we both agree on this
I'm not saying God wanted to do it to show His wrath. I'm saying He wanted to do it to show His Love. Hence we're not seeing the extent of God's wrath. We're seeing the extent of His Love and mercy. God's on the cross. God's not the one doing the crucifying.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ivan Hlavanda

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2020
1,094
726
31
York
✟83,831.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm not saying God wanted to do it to show His wrath

But God had to pour His wrath on someone, and as you said He mercifully showed in on Himself (Jesus). God has to righteously punish sin and thus us as the sinners, but He didn't want to do so, so He poured His wrath on Jesus.

This is important tp remember, and I'm sure you know it well, but hopefully this can reach others. Jesus defeated satan on cross, satan has lost but not had been destroyed yet. Jesus paid the price for our sins, but the sin is not destroyed yet. Even Christians who are born in spirit live in sinful flesh (Adam's flesh) and we will continue to do so until our Heavenly Father gives us new bodies.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please see the post I wrote earlier, it is a post number 11 in this thread. I believe that answers your question.

Does that mean he could not look upon himself?

Yes Jesus was pure, and without a sin. That's how we are made righteous in His name, but He also had to bare our sin for our sake, that does not mean He was a sinner, He just clothed Himself in our sin. Maybe He could not look at Himself also, I don't know I'm only guessing here, that He couldn't look at Himself but He had to carry our sins for our sake. Does that make any sense to you?
I think you are mainly leaning hard on the penal substitution theory of atonement here.
Not saying that is altogether wrong, but I'm not convinced it is altogether right either. I can only find a couple verses that somewhat support it, in Isaiah, and even then it doesn't say that the father abandoned the Son.

"Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions...

We considered him punished by God does not seem to be the same thing as "God poured out his wrath on Jesus."

It does say the Lord laid our iniquities on him. But our sin again, is not the father's wrath, it is our burden, that he willingly takes on.

In fact it seems like the passage is saying that we are wrong when we consider him punished by God, when he actually took our punishment.

So we are left with one sentence about it being God's will to crush him, but that must be due to the results of the crushing, not that a Holy God is gleefully abusing his Son, that would be God abusing himself.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As a human person Jesus when Jesus died on the cross it was not make believe,, He had to fully experience death, just as any person does. He had to feel the pain which included the feeling of abandonment.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ivan Hlavanda
Upvote 0

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But God had to pour His wrath on someone, God has to righteously punish sin and thus us as the sinners, but He didn't want to do so, so He poured His wrath on Jesus.
I don't think that's true at all. It is said that we see God's grace in Christ. I see grace when Jesus says "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It was my seeking to find out why Jesus said this about those who crucified him, that led me to believe/trust in Christ as the True Image of God sent by God. For this reason I pick up my own cross and suffer the sins of others and I also forgive out of the same reasoning as Jesus. The same reason why Stephen asked that his being stoned to death not be charged against he who had him stoned, (Saul who later became Paul afterwards).

I believe God's wrath will come against those who refuse to believe that Love endures because it is God's Eternal Spirit. It endures even the cross of crucifixion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,917
2,884
66
Denver CO
✟200,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think you are mainly leaning hard on the penal substitution theory of atonement here.
Not saying that is altogether wrong, but I'm not convinced it is altogether right either. I can only find a couple verses that somewhat support it, in Isaiah, and even then it doesn't say that the father abandoned the Son.

"Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions...

We considered him punished by God does not seem to be the same thing as "God poured out his wrath on Jesus."

It does say the Lord laid our iniquities on him. But our sin again, is not the father's wrath, it is our burden, that he willingly takes on.

In fact it seems like the passage is saying that we are wrong when we consider him punished by God, when he actually took our punishment.

So we are left with one sentence about it being God's will to crush him, but that must be due to the results of the crushing, not that a Holy God is gleefully abusing his Son, that would be God abusing himself.
Look at the semantics. He bore our sins which is what we as Christians are required to do with others so as to follow him. It means we suffer what others do to us and forgive them just as Jesus did. The punishment for sin that only Jesus alone could take in our stead, because he alone was sinless, was death. That's why Jesus is the resurrection. Hence it pleased God to bruise him when though shalt make him an offering for sin.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0