Is the O.T. Angel of the Lord the Pre-incarnate Jesus?

Is the O.T. Angel of the Lord the pre-incarnate Jesus?

  • Yes, The Angel of the Lord was/is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

    Votes: 22 68.8%
  • No, The Angel of the Lord was/is NOT the pre-incarnate Jesus.

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Maybe, but I'm not sure if The Angel of the Lord was/is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

    Votes: 5 15.6%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .

BobRyan

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Jesus was rebuking Satan in the wilderness for 40 days. By the very definition of rebuke.

Well then Jesus rebuked Satan in the dispute over his right to bodily resurrect Moses "by the definition of rebuke" - but He did so as Christ said in John 12, and John 14 - in perfect harmony with the Father.

Jude 1 does not say "did not dare rebuke" it says

9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

KJV - "9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


"A railing accusation, the Greek word is blasphemy. The meaning is, he did not indulge in the language of mere reproach; and it is implied here that such language would be wrong anywhere. If it would be right to bring a railing accusation against any one, it would be against the devil."

1 Timothy 6:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,


1 Peter 3:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.


2 Peter 2:11 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
Language that is not acceptable for a child of God.

Railing: "to vent angrily about someone or something."
 
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Blade

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Many times.. like the host of Gods army and where He said "take off your shoes for the ground you stand on is holy" and he worshiped Him. Fact.. you never ever worship angels Yet this one how odd allowed it.

Is Christ.
 
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GenemZ

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Many times.. like the host of Gods army and where He said "take off your shoes for the ground you stand on is holy" and he worshiped Him. Fact.. you never ever worship angels Yet this one how odd allowed it.

Is Christ.
Is not the Holy Spirit God? We seem to forgetting this factor.

Of course we do not worship angels.

We do not worship men either!

Yet, they worshiped Jesus with no problem.

And, the Holy Spirit manifested as an angel would also accept worship. For He is also God!
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Michael the archangel is not Jesus.

Jude 1:9 says,

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."​

Michael the archangel is not the Lord Jesus because He could not rebuke the enemy himself. Instead, Michael in Jude 1:9 said that the Lord is to rebuke him. Yet, during the time Satan tempted Christ, Jesus had no trouble rebuking the enemy Himself. Why? Because Jesus is Lord.

Just check out the scene for yourself here:

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."
(Matthew 4:10-11).​


Side Note:

Yes, I am aware of the few scant verses that are used to defend the idea that Michael the archangel is Jesus, but they are a stretch beyond what the text actually says. Comparing Jude 1:9 with Matthew 4:10-11 makes it clear that Michael is not Jesus. Of course, one can ignore such evidence in Scripture and do backflip twists to try and change such a truth because of a church tradition or because that is what they believed to be true for so long, but it wouldn't change the plain truth of what these two pieces of Scripture say.
I believe the OP is speaking of The Angel of the LORD here though...as to whether or not the archangel Michael is Jesus is a different topic isn't it?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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In my life time I have read a few of the JW texts and met a few of them in bible study - each time I ask them or look into their teachings - they always flatly deny that "Michael is God the Son - the "Angel of the Lord". The second person of the Godhead" -- so it is pretty hard for me to insist that this is their teaching.

We believe in the trinity - the three persons of the Godhead - each person in that triune Godhead is fully God -- I find it very difficult to get JW's to claim they believe that.

Where did you ever find the JW's teaching that idea?



well given the title of your thread here - and given the way the posts have been going - consider the implications of the "Angel of the LORD" also being named "Michael" in the Bible - and in fact is God the Son manifest in his role as warrior - engaged in battle.

So then in Daniel 12 at the end of time - after all the many centuries of persecution of the saints "Michael STANDS UP" - and then comes a time of trouble for planet Earth as well as the resurrection of the dead (and of course the rapture as we know from 1Thess 4).

What is it about Christ - our High Priest in heaven (which is "the main point" according to Paul in Hebrews 8:1) -- "Standing up" that brings tribulation to earth and brings the second coming?

Answer -- 1 Tim 2: " 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

In Hebrews 8:1-5 He is "seated at the right hand of the Father" as our High priest in heaven.

But in Daniel 12:1-4 He stands up and that work ends. So then lots of bad things happen on earth just then.
It's my understanding...taken from a couple well-read JWs...that Jesus and Satan were brothers from the beginning and Jesus had to defeat Satan for full Godhead. They believed Jesus to be the Savior, but did not believe He existed as God before the cross.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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It's my understanding...taken from a couple well-read JWs...that Jesus and Satan were brothers from the beginning and Jesus had to defeat Satan for full Godhead. They believed Jesus to be the Savior, but did not believe He existed as God before the cross.
Double checked a JW q/a site on the Holy Spirit...they deny Him.
 
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I believe the OP is speaking of The Angel of the LORD here though...as to whether or not the archangel Michael is Jesus is a different topic isn't it?

Some believe Jesus being Michael the archangel is a part of Him existing as the Angel of the Lord or it is a Christophany. So I was not really going off topic from their perspective. Besides, even if it was off topic, I was not continually discussing Michael the archangel endlessly within this thread. I quickly addressed his point on why his view was not biblical. Besides, have you never went slightly off topic in a discussion before?

Anyways, I believe Jesus is the Angel of the Lord mentioned in the Old Testament. This does not mean Jesus is literally a created angel but it is merely a title or His taking on of an empty soulless shell of a body of angels. This was done so as to house his glory as God. Christ (Second person of the eternal Trinity) made many pre-incarnate appearances in the OT. They are beautiful truths of how Jesus is on every page of our Bible. For Jesus told the Jews, ye seek the Scriptures to have eternal life, but it is they that testify of me.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Some believe Jesus being Michael the archangel is a part of Him existing as the Angel of the Lord or it is a Christophany. So I was not really going off topic from their perspective. Besides, even if it was off topic, I was not continually discussing Michael the archangel endlessly within this thread. I quickly addressed his point on why his view was not biblical. Besides, have you never went slightly off topic in a discussion before?

Anyways, I believe Jesus is the Angel of the Lord mentioned in the Old Testament. This does not mean Jesus is literally a created angel but it is merely a title or His taking on of an empty soulless shell of a body of angels. This was done so as to house his glory as God. Christ (Second person of the eternal Trinity) made many pre-incarnate appearances in the OT. They are beautiful truths of how Jesus is on every page of our Bible. For Jesus told the Jews, ye seek the Scriptures to have eternal life, but it is they that testify of me.
Yes, so I agree, you weren't too off topic.
As for your stand on The Angel of the LORD, I agree that he was Jesus. Many times God appears in the OT and hides His full glory...though Moses sought to see it he was denied seeing God in His full glory though he came close. I believe God's full purpose in disguising Himself is known only to Him...sure you agree. However, I venture an observation that it always requires faith to come to Jesus. The OT Israelites and believers had to believe in the promise of the Messiah to be saved...witness the poison snakes and the pole lifted up to them so that anyone who obeyed and looked upon it was healed.
I do not think that Jesus would use a soulless body of an angel for a disguise...angel means messenger and Jesus was God's messenger and not only that but our deliverer, hence "Angel of the LORD".
 
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Yes, so I agree, you weren't too off topic.
As for your stand on The Angel of the LORD, I agree that he was Jesus. Many times God appears in the OT and hides His full glory...though Moses sought to see it he was denied seeing God in His full glory though he came close. I believe God's full purpose in disguising Himself is known only to Him...sure you agree. However, I venture an observation that it always requires faith to come to Jesus. The OT Israelites and believers had to believe in the promise of the Messiah to be saved...witness the poison snakes and the pole lifted up to them so that anyone who obeyed and looked upon it was healed.
I do not think that Jesus would use a soulless body of an angel for a disguise...angel means messenger and Jesus was God's messenger and not only that but our deliverer, hence "Angel of the LORD".

But... how would He hide his face? When Jesus (i.e. Who is the glory of God - See: Exodus 33:18, John 1:14, Hebrews 1:2-3) passed by Moses, He did not allow for Him to see His face. He said that if such were the case, He would not be able to live and or survive. Also, He covered Moses with His hand as He passed by Him, as well. He put Him the cleft of the Rock to protect Him. This means that if Jesus is the same Angel of the Lord, He would have to have some kind of outward covering to house this great glory that Moses had seen. Seeing his is called the "Angel of the Lord," it makes sense he took on an outer covering or shell like that of empty soulless body of angels to protect people from being destroyed.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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But... how would He hide his face? When Jesus (i.e. Who is the glory of God - See: Exodus 33:18, John 1:14, Hebrews 1:2-3) passed by Moses, He did not allow for Him to see His face. He said that if such were the case, He would not be able to live and or survive. Also, He covered Moses with His hand as He passed by Him, as well. He put Him the cleft of the Rock to protect Him. This means that if Jesus is the same Angel of the Lord, He would have to have some kind of outward covering to house this great glory that Moses had seen. Seeing his is called the "Angel of the Lord," it makes sense he took on an outer covering or shell like that of empty soulless body of angels to protect people from being destroyed.
I offer you only, God is Almighty and He does as He pleases. He told Moses...Is God's hand too short? when Moses said he was inadequate for the task God planned for him.
 
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I offer you only, God is Almighty and He does as He pleases. He told Moses...Is God's hand too short? when Moses said he was inadequate for the task God planned for him.

Numbers 11:23 in the King James uses this as a metaphor for the Lord's power.

The NASB says,

"The LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD'S power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
(Numbers 11:23) (NASB).​

While this may be your point in that God can do anything beyond our normal understanding (and I agree that God can do the impossible and He does not have to always use the basic laws of normal operational Science), the Lord God is also a God of order and logic, too. Scripture says God is not the author of confusion. So there is a logical way He must operate. If our Lord Jesus is referred to as the "Angel of the Lord" in the OT, it is quite logical that there is a reason or logic answer behind this title given. If the Lord Jesus could not have withdrawn His ability from showing His face so as not to destroy Moses physically, then logic dictates that Jesus needed some kind of covering (Call that covering whatever you like) in order to not destroy others as the Angel of the Lord. It's simply the basic law of deductive reasoning in this case.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Numbers 11:23 in the King James uses this as a metaphor for the Lord's power.

The NASB says,

"The LORD said to Moses, "Is the LORD'S power limited? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not."
(Numbers 11:23) (NASB).​

While this may be your point in that God can do anything beyond our normal understanding (and I agree that God can do the impossible and He does not have to always use the basic laws of normal operational Science), the Lord God is also a God of order and logic, too. Scripture says God is not the author of confusion. So there is a logical way He must operate. If our Lord Jesus is referred to as the "Angel of the Lord" in the OT, it is quite logical that there is a reason or logic answer behind this title given. If the Lord Jesus could not have withdrawn His ability from showing His face so as not to destroy Moses physically, then logic dictates that Jesus needed some kind of covering (Call that covering whatever you like) in order to not destroy others as the Angel of the Lord. It's simply the basic law of deductive reasoning in this case.
All of God's miracles defy logic and order. Jesus walked on water and returned immediately to the other shore...for instance.
God is holy and does not reside with the unclean...why would he inhabit the "shell" of an unclean angel? Still disagreeing...but that's ok, we are just speculating about non-salvation items.
 
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All of God's miracles defy logic and order. Jesus walked on water and returned immediately to the other shore...for instance.

As I said basically before, I believe God is capable of operating miracles by breaking the Laws of normal Science. Not disputing this fact. A miracle by definition is an interruption of the normal every day operation or process of how we observe things to be. I am not like some on the forum who don't believe in the miraculous. God does miracles. No doubt about it.

You said:
God is holy and does not reside with the unclean...why would he inhabit the "shell" of an unclean angel? Still disagreeing...but that's ok, we are just speculating about non-salvation items.

*Sigh* Nowhere did I ever say that Jesus inhabited a sinful angelic body. Where did I ever say that? I didn't. Good angels in Heaven are not sinful. Neither are they said to be unclean, either. Scripture never states such a silly thing. In fact, Scripture says believers will not be given to marriage [the spiritual body type resurrection, i.e. the Rapture] because they will be like the angels of God in Heaven. Is God going to stay away in hugging believers in Heaven because they are unclean? Surely not.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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As I said basically before, I believe God is capable of operating miracles by breaking the Laws of normal Science. Not disputing this fact. A miracle by definition is an interruption of the normal every day operation or process of how we observe things to be. I am not like some on the forum who don't believe in the miraculous. God does miracles. No doubt about it.



*Sigh* Nowhere did I ever say that Jesus inhabited a sinful angelic body. Where did I ever say that? I didn't. Good angels in Heaven are not sinful. Neither are they said to be unclean, either. Scripture never states such a silly thing. In fact, Scripture says believers will not be given to marriage [the spiritual body type resurrection, i.e. the Rapture] because they will be like the angels of God in Heaven. Is God going to stay away in hugging believers in Heaven because they are unclean? Surely not.
WOW! What a awful job we are doing in understanding one another.
You said soulless angel and I guess I took you as meaning an angel of the devil's league. I believe that's where this derailed. The rest of what you said I understood where you were coming from. I believe Jesus took whatever form He desired and when He so desire and did not need to borrow an angel's shell.
Also, we are not unclean once we come to faith in Christ...as I'm certain you well know...God credits us with righteousness per Romans.
Think this is it for me.
 
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WOW! What a awful job we are doing in understanding one another.
You said soulless angel and I guess I took you as meaning an angel of the devil's league. I believe that's where this derailed.

Well, I definitely was not referring to the devil and his minions. They even have souls because I believe the Bible teaches that a soul is having a mind, a will, and emotions. See this CF thread here with Scripture to learn more about the soul.

You said:
The rest of what you said I understood where you were coming from. I believe Jesus took whatever form He desired and when He so desire and did not need to borrow an angel's shell.

If such were the case, then Jesus Christ (the Living Word) did not need to take on flesh via by way of the virgin Mary. The Living Word would have just appeared in the flesh fully as an adult man and He would not have needed to be born as a child through the line of already existing human beings. Jesus could have simply duplicated the flesh of humankind even and appeared out of thin air with no birth. But that's not what happened. In other words, God is consistent in the way He operates. If God was manifested in the flesh (and He was - 1 Timothy 3:16), and we see He had made appearances under the title of "the Angel of the Lord," then logic dictates that He was using an angel shell or angel body (with no mind, will, and emotions attached) as a covering to house His glory in not destroying other people (In the fact that they could look at His face).

You said:
Also, we are not unclean once we come to faith in Christ...as I'm certain you well know...God credits us with righteousness per Romans.

As for your statement that says, "we are not unclean once we come to faith in Christ":

Well, in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says to believers in Christ,

"...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

In other words, Scripture has to be read as a whole.

Believers are forgiven of all past sins when they come to the Lord Jesus Christ and His grace (seeking forgiveness with Him). This is because 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess of our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."; So you have to confess in order to be forgiven (Well, that is if you believe 1 John 1:9 in what it plainly says). After being forgiven of sin by the Lord Jesus, and believing in the gospel (Gospel is defined in: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Which is being saved by God's grace), believers need to then enter the Sanctification Process. How so?

Well, the Bible uses the word sanctification in reference to living holy.

"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;" (1 Thessalonians 4:4).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

So God's will for our life is Sanctification and as a part of it, we are told to abstain from fornication. We are told to possess our vessel (our body) in sanctification.

The Bible also uses the word "sanctify" in relation to using Scripture to clean or sanctify the church so that Christ might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."​

To summarize 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it says all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works.

The Bible also uses other words to refer to the Sanctification Process or in purifying oneself so as to Live Holy:

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
(Philippians 2:12).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:15-16).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; " (Hebrews 12:14-15).

"let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. " (Titus 2:11-14).

"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. " (1 John 3:3).​

As for your statement that says, "as I'm certain you well know...God credits us with righteousness per Romans":

It is true, God credits us with his righteousness, but this has to be done with a true faith. For example: While the blood of Jesus needs to be applied to our life by believing in Christ's blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), the blood of Christ also needs to be applied by our walking in the light according to 1 John 1:7, too.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).
What is walking in the light mean? The next chapter gives us the clue or hint that "walking in the light" is loving our brother.

9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:9-11).​

So we have to love our brother as a part of the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us. So salvation is not a one time event, but is ongoing and it is conditional upon us loving our brother.

More proof?

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).​

So a person is not of God if they do not love their brother. That is what 1 John 3:10 says.

1 John 3:15 says that hating one's brother means they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

So believing in Christ's blood by faith, and bringing forth works of faith (by loving one's brother) is what proves one faith is genuine. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). What about Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5? These verses are referring to the first step or stage of the salvation process which is by God's grace when we are first initially saved. It is a process of salvation that is based upon God's mercy and grace, and not in anything that we did. But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to then enter the Sanctification Process (Which is the next stage or step in the salvation process).

You said:
Think this is it for me.

I understand.
Blessings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ;
And please be safe.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Well, I definitely was not referring to the devil and his minions. They even have souls because I believe the Bible teaches that a soul is having a mind, a will, and emotions. See this CF thread here with Scripture to learn more about the soul.



If such were the case, then Jesus Christ (the Living Word) did not need to take on flesh via by way of the virgin Mary. The Living Word would have just appeared in the flesh fully as an adult man and He would not have needed to be born as a child through the line of already existing human beings. Jesus could have simply duplicated the flesh of humankind even and appeared out of thin air with no birth. But that's not what happened. In other words, God is consistent in the way He operates. If God was manifested in the flesh (and He was - 1 Timothy 3:16), and we see He had made appearances under the title of "the Angel of the Lord," then logic dictates that He was using an angel shell or angel body (with no mind, will, and emotions attached) as a covering to house His glory in not destroying other people (In the fact that they could look at His face).



As for your statement that says, "we are not unclean once we come to faith in Christ":

Well, in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says to believers in Christ,

"...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).​

In other words, Scripture has to be read as a whole.

Believers are forgiven of all past sins when they come to the Lord Jesus Christ and His grace (seeking forgiveness with Him). This is because 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess of our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."; So you have to confess in order to be forgiven (Well, that is if you believe 1 John 1:9 in what it plainly says). After being forgiven of sin by the Lord Jesus, and believing in the gospel (Gospel is defined in: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Which is being saved by God's grace), believers need to then enter the Sanctification Process. How so?

Well, the Bible uses the word sanctification in reference to living holy.

"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;" (1 Thessalonians 4:4).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

So God's will for our life is Sanctification and as a part of it, we are told to abstain from fornication. We are told to possess our vessel (our body) in sanctification.

The Bible also uses the word "sanctify" in relation to using Scripture to clean or sanctify the church so that Christ might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says,
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."​

To summarize 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it says all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works.

The Bible also uses other words to refer to the Sanctification Process or in purifying oneself so as to Live Holy:

"work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
(Philippians 2:12).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:15-16).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; " (Hebrews 12:14-15).

"let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. " (Titus 2:11-14).

"And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. " (1 John 3:3).​

As for your statement that says, "as I'm certain you well know...God credits us with righteousness per Romans":

It is true, God credits us with his righteousness, but this has to be done with a true faith. For example: While the blood of Jesus needs to be applied to our life by believing in Christ's blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), the blood of Christ also needs to be applied by our walking in the light according to 1 John 1:7, too.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).
What is walking in the light mean? The next chapter gives us the clue or hint that "walking in the light" is loving our brother.

9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:9-11).​

So we have to love our brother as a part of the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us. So salvation is not a one time event, but is ongoing and it is conditional upon us loving our brother.

More proof?

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).​

So a person is not of God if they do not love their brother. That is what 1 John 3:10 says.

1 John 3:15 says that hating one's brother means they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them.

So believing in Christ's blood by faith, and bringing forth works of faith (by loving one's brother) is what proves one faith is genuine. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). What about Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5? These verses are referring to the first step or stage of the salvation process which is by God's grace when we are first initially saved. It is a process of salvation that is based upon God's mercy and grace, and not in anything that we did. But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to then enter the Sanctification Process (Which is the next stage or step in the salvation process).



I understand.
Blessings to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ;
And please be safe.
I really do not ever take long posts like this apart piece-meal, there is so much to examine. And a BIG YES to taking the Bible as a whole...I do that best I can; did you though. You are picking passages which stress living a sanctified life and ignoring the passage in Romans telling us we are credited with righteousness. I was addressing your comment that God would not be able to hug us in heaven b/c we are unclean and I gave the Romans passage. In heaven the sinful nature is/the curse is taken away. We will be both righteous and holy...God CAN hug us on that count, but also He lives within us, within our body-temple while we abide on earth.

Jesus became flesh and had to become flesh to share in the humanity of His children so He knew how to help them in their needs. For He was tempted in every way yet did not sin.
Hebrews 2:14:
4 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Hebrews 4:15:
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

All I have time for tonight!
 
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I really do not ever take long posts like this apart piece-meal, there is so much to examine. And a BIG YES to taking the Bible as a whole...I do that best I can; did you though. You are picking passages which stress living a sanctified life and ignoring the passage in Romans telling us we are credited with righteousness. I was addressing your comment that God would not be able to hug us in heaven b/c we are unclean and I gave the Romans passage. In heaven the sinful nature is/the curse is taken away. We will be both righteous and holy...God CAN hug us on that count, but also He lives within us, within our body-temple while we abide on earth.

Jesus became flesh and had to become flesh to share in the humanity of His children so He knew how to help them in their needs. For He was tempted in every way yet did not sin.
Hebrews 2:14:
4 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
Hebrews 4:15:
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

All I have time for tonight!

In order to not derail this thread: I continued this discussion on this particular topic in this thread I recently created here:

CF Thread - How does a person apply the righteousness of God and or the cleansing blood of Christ?
 
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Paul4JC

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5) And, last but not least, a nice little blog article from the "off the beaten path" fellow, Michael Heiser; I think he does a good job of focusing in on the OP topic more specifically (which isn't to say he's decisive for us in this matter ... )

The Name of Yahweh and the Angel of the Lord - LogosTalk

Thanks. I love this topic.

I regularly listen to Dr. Michael Heiser’s podcast .

Link to more of his teaching this topic.
Michael Heiser - Two Powers of the Godhead
I also don't think any theologian has had 'it all correct,'
So true, none of us do.

I think the Angel of the Lord and Michael the Arch-Angel are two different entities.
I agree, and that should be in a different thread.

Michael the archangel is not Jesus.
No he is not, though he is a very, very important archangel.

God bless.
 
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Paul4JC

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This one i think I heard about from Dr. Heiser too.
From Jeremiah 1.

The Call of Jeremiah

4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

before you were borni I set you apart;

I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

6 “Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak;l I am too young.”

7 But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. 8 Do not be afraid of them, for I am with youo and will rescue you,” declares the Lord.

9 Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, “I have put my words in your mouth.
 
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