DID GOD FORSAKE HIS SON?

James Honigman

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Of course not, but there will be thousands of sermons given around the world this week claiming He did forsake His Son. What is the truth, the Biblical truth? It is written in the book of Hebrews 13:5, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. That is the Lord's promise to us; does it make any sense that He would not extend that promise to His only begotten Son?


While it is true that our Beloved had to die a miserable death for us to have salvation, it is not true that our Heavenly Father forsook Him. And many Christians are saying, "Wait a minute, the Lord said those words on the cross Himself, I read it in Matthew 27:46." "He said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Yes, He did say those words, but we, as believers upon Him, need to understand WHY He said those words. There is a good reason; our Lord was identifying Himself as our Messiah, teaching us, and fulfilling prophecy.


Go to Psalm 22, the crucifixion psalm, and read the 1st sentence of the 1st verse. It says, My GOD, My GOD, why hast Thou forsaken Me? That psalm was written by the Holy Spirit, through David, approximately 1,000 years earlier. Our Lord, while He was dying on the cross, was directing us to read that psalm, His crucifixion psalm. And the first thing we should realize is that our Lord Jesus, while addressing GOD directly, never called Him GOD; He always called Him Father.


If I might, I would like to suggest that everyone read the crucifixion psalm this Passover week. In the 8th verse you will see the Pharisees surrounding Him, saying, He trusted on the LORD that He would deliver Him: Let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him. In the 14th verse we can read of His agony: I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint. In verse 16 we read, They pierced My hands and My feet, and in verse 18 we see the Roman soldiers gambling for His garments: They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.


In the last verse we read His instructions to this generation: They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, that He hath done this. Put another way, It is finished. The point of this post is for all Christians to understand what was really going on when our Beloved spoke certain things while being crucified. He was teaching us Who He was, and fulfilling prophecy. Our Father would never forsake Him.
 

childeye 2

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Sounds reasonable to me. But it still doesn't explain to me The Christ's sentiment. I often wonder if this was more the man Jesus speaking as a man unto God. I am poured out is like there's nothing more to give.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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I do believe God abandoned Jesus just before or on the cross, because Jesus had to take our ultimate punishment to make us sinners righteous in Jesus's name, and the ultimate punishment for us sinners would be that God abandons us, not in life but in death, so I do believe this is what Jesus felt, that the Father abandoned his Son, so we are never abandoned by God in Jesus's name.
 
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childeye 2

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I do believe God abandoned Jesus just before or on the cross, because Jesus had to take our ultimate punishment to make us sinners righteous in Jesus's name, and the ultimate punishment for us sinners would be that God abandons us, not in life but in death, so I do believe this is what Jesus felt, that the Father abandoned his Son, so we are never abandoned by God in Jesus's name.
But the Christ foreknew he would be delivered up to be crucified. Why would he ask why he had been forsaken when he knew he came for this purpose?
 
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The Father had to have forsaken Jesus completely because that was the necessary punishment for sin. Jesus took the judgment that we deserved in our place; He was forsaken so that we wouldn't be. The Father didn't stop loving His Son as wrath was poured out, but Jesus did experience separation. It was a legal, divine transaction.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Of course not, but there will be thousands of sermons given around the world this week claiming He did forsake His Son. What is the truth, the Biblical truth? It is written in the book of Hebrews 13:5, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. That is the Lord's promise to us; does it make any sense that He would not extend that promise to His only begotten Son?


While it is true that our Beloved had to die a miserable death for us to have salvation, it is not true that our Heavenly Father forsook Him. And many Christians are saying, "Wait a minute, the Lord said those words on the cross Himself, I read it in Matthew 27:46." "He said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Yes, He did say those words, but we, as believers upon Him, need to understand WHY He said those words. There is a good reason; our Lord was identifying Himself as our Messiah, teaching us, and fulfilling prophecy.


Go to Psalm 22, the crucifixion psalm, and read the 1st sentence of the 1st verse. It says, My GOD, My GOD, why hast Thou forsaken Me? That psalm was written by the Holy Spirit, through David, approximately 1,000 years earlier. Our Lord, while He was dying on the cross, was directing us to read that psalm, His crucifixion psalm. And the first thing we should realize is that our Lord Jesus, while addressing GOD directly, never called Him GOD; He always called Him Father.


If I might, I would like to suggest that everyone read the crucifixion psalm this Passover week. In the 8th verse you will see the Pharisees surrounding Him, saying, He trusted on the LORD that He would deliver Him: Let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him. In the 14th verse we can read of His agony: I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint. In verse 16 we read, They pierced My hands and My feet, and in verse 18 we see the Roman soldiers gambling for His garments: They part My garments among them, and cast lots upon My vesture.


In the last verse we read His instructions to this generation: They shall come, and shall declare His righteousness unto a People that shall be born, that He hath done this. Put another way, It is finished. The point of this post is for all Christians to understand what was really going on when our Beloved spoke certain things while being crucified. He was teaching us Who He was, and fulfilling prophecy. Our Father would never forsake Him.
Great thread I put this together a while ago let me know what you think.

12 facts about God and Jesus last words.

Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit



God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.


God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

We can see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.


God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor in the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend not found in scripture.


The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.


Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.


And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.
 
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...Yes, He did say those words, but we, as believers upon Him, need to understand WHY He said those words. ....

I agree that God didn’t forsake Jesus, because God raised Jesus from the death. However, Jesus tells that God lives in him. It is possible that when he was dying, he felt God was not anymore there.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Great thread I put this together a while ago let me know what you think.

12 facts about God and Jesus last words.

Some people teach when Jesus said My God My God why have Thou forsaken Me that the Father departed, deserted and turned His back upon His Son to bear Gods wrath on the cross. But is this teaching biblical? Is it true?

1-God is Triune
2- The Trinity cannot be broken, separated or abandoned.
3- God doesn't send His wrath against God
4- Jesus is God
5- Context has meaning and all the gospel accounts work together along with the OT quotations
6- Jesus words come from Psalm 22
7- Psalm 22 must be understood in the context of the crucifixion
8- Jesus last words were this " Father into Thy hands I commit my Spirit "
9- Psalm 22 has numerous fulfillment's during His Crucifixion
10- Psalms 22 and the gospels say He was mocked, despised, hurled insults, cast lots, divided His clothes, let God rescue Him etc......
11- Psalm 22:24 also says God has not despised Him nor hidden His face from Him and listened to His cry for help
12- Psalm 22:24 coincides with Jesus trust and relationship with the Father saying into your hands I commit MY Spirit



God is LOVE. In Love the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John tells us.

We must understand how Gods attributes all work in harmony together not in opposition to each other. All of Gods attributes and His character flow from His Love for God is Love.


God being Love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is Love and that Love is perfect lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love by definition has to be expressed with another which is why a unitarian god cannot be Love. Love requires another to share and express that Love and it’s what we see with the Triune God. God is Love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation there was no sin hence no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, justice etc................. Why because those are Gods secondary attributes. God’s Love is a primary attribute like Holy is a primary. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes.

All doctrine begins with God at its starting point.

We can see the entire Psalm 22 which is Messianic was being played out before their very eyes and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah by quoting Psalm 22 being lived out before them. It’s a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, Gods One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. And let’s not forget Jesus promise to the sinner- TODAY you will be with ME in PARADISE. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. You see The Trinity was never fractured, broken or severed for even a moment but together the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners. It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning.


God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me ? You see if God did not turn His back on sinners then neither did the Father turn His back on His only Son who is Holy, Blameless, Sinless, and Righteous just like His Father. It’s nothing but a modern day myth that teaches that the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross.

God is not against Himself angrily displaying wrath from the Father to the Son. God is love. In love He sent His Son. The wrath bearing Son is a new concept not found in Scripture nor in the ECF's. God is not against Himself. There is no one in the Trinity who is in opposition, no conflict, no dissention, no strife, do dysfunction etc…….as if God were somehow like a sinful human family. There is nothing broken in Our Blessed Trinity.

Jesus bearing Gods wrath and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is nothing but an urban legend not found in scripture.


The following scriptures affirm Jesus relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.


Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
“A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.


And add to that Jesus promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani”: “Eli” is Hebrew, the rest Aramaic (Mark 15:34 gives the entire wail in Aramaic). This cry is a fulfillment of (Psalm 22:1), one of many striking parallels between that Psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. Christ at that moment was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath on Him as sin-bearer.

You see, at one point of this crucifixion when Jesus took on the sin of the whole world, God turned His head. God cannot look upon sin that is not covered by the blood. He is pure. God will burn it up. The sacrifice was not completed yet.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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But the Christ foreknew he would be delivered up to be crucified. Why would he ask why he had been forsaken when he knew he came for this purpose?

First, this was a real forsakenness. That is why. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” means he really did. He really did. He is bearing our sin. He bore our judgment.

The judgment was to have God the Father pour out his wrath, and instead of pouring it out on us, he pours it out on him. That necessarily involves a kind of abandonment. That is what wrath means. He gave him up to suffer the weight of all the sins of all of his people and the judgment for those sins.

We cannot begin to fathom all that this would mean between the Father and the Son. To be forsaken by God is the cry of the damned, and he was damned for us. So he used these words because there was a real forsakenness. That is the first reason.

Second, the why, it seems to me, is not a question looking for an answer, but a way of expressing the horrors of abandonment. I have a couple of reasons for thinking this.

“The judgment was to have God the Father pour out his wrath, and instead of pouring it out on us, he pours it out on his Son.”
John 18:4). He gave himself up. So he knew. He knew it was coming. He knew everything.

Another reason is the moment was one of agony, not theological curiosity. The moment was one of agony.

Third, the fact that he is not asking a question so much as expressing a horror is that the words are a reflex of immersion in Psalm 22, it seems. They are a direct quotation. But when you are hanging on the cross you don’t say: “Oh, I think I am going to quote some Scripture here.”

It either is in you as the very essence of your messianic calling or it is not. And if it is in you, then you give vent at the worst moment of your life with the appointment of your Father scripted in Psalm 22. That seems to be right at the heart of what is going on.
 
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expos4ever

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At the risk of seeming somewhat obtuse, I am not sure I see why this is such an important matter. At present, I am of the view that Jesus was indeed "forsaken" on the cross. Perhaps those who believe otherwise could explain the theological or doctrinal implications that you think are important.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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At the risk of seeming somewhat obtuse, I am not sure I see why this is such an important matter. At present, I am of the view that Jesus was indeed "forsaken" on the cross. Perhaps those who believe otherwise could explain the theological or doctrinal implications that you think are important.

Because if we don't believe that Jesus took the ultimate punishment for us, and that He was indeed abandoned, we are not saved as we don't believe fully what Jesus fully did for us and why
 
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RJ Spencer

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The only people that think that Jesus was abandoned are the people that claim that God couldn't have been looking upon the cross when the sins of His people were poured out upon Jesus. Such a thing is not found in scripture. These same people will say that Hell is the absence of God, but I tend to agree with Paul Washer,"Hell is not hell because God is not there, Hell is hell because God is there" His wrath is being poured out in a pure and adulterated way on the sinners of hell. We seem to get the idea that God is not actively involved in what goes on in hell, but I see no scripture to suggest that God is not involved in the torture of sinners in hell.

Also, looking at Psalm 22 it seems like the real meaning of forsake in this context is not "forsake" as we would think of it, but rather 'why are you so far from me' this is clearly not the same thing.
 
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childeye 2

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First, this was a real forsakenness. That is why. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” means he really did. He really did. He is bearing our sin. He bore our judgment.
I believe he feels forsaken, or alone. I also believe he bore our sin as the sacrificial lamb and suffered a substitutionary death in our stead.

The judgment was to have God the Father pour out his wrath, and instead of pouring it out on us, he pours it out on him. That necessarily involves a kind of abandonment. That is what wrath means. He gave him up to suffer the weight of all the sins of all of his people and the judgment for those sins.
You lost me here. If God was taking out His wrath on Jesus, then the story of the vineyard makes no sense. In the Story, the owner of the vineyard sends servants to collect their masters share from those he left in charge, and these wicked servants kill them one by one. Finally he sends his son and they kill him too. If God is the Master, then why in the story would God be angry at those who killed His Son, if in fact it is Him taking out His wrath?

Moreover the scripture is clear in identifying those who mock and scorn and scourge and crucify Jesus as wicked people, not people moved out of the Spirit of God. Revelations identifies the dragon as waiting to devour the child. The dragon is generally viewed as Satan, not God.
 
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renniks

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Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani”: “Eli” is Hebrew, the rest Aramaic (Mark 15:34 gives the entire wail in Aramaic). This cry is a fulfillment of (Psalm 22:1), one of many striking parallels between that Psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. Christ at that moment was experiencing the abandonment and despair that resulted from the outpouring of divine wrath on Him as sin-bearer.

You see, at one point of this crucifixion when Jesus took on the sin of the whole world, God turned His head. God cannot look upon sin that is not covered by the blood. He is pure. God will burn it up. The sacrifice was not completed yet.
Can the Trinity separate itself? How can God abandon God? And Jesus was also pure. Does that mean he could not look upon himself?
 
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Paul4JC

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James Honigman thanks for sharing. Here how i see it.


Mark 15:33 At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

So for 3 hours (possibly) Jesus bore our sins. Only at the 3rd hour did the Lord Jesus cry out. Why?

2 Cor 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Not sure for how long but when he became “sin for us” he was separated (the only time in eternity) from the Father because of your and my sin. For God so loved the world…

Sure the Father didn’t forsake him in the fullest sense, but the Lord Jesus did feel the greatest pain ever possible and so cried out…

Blessed is the Lord
 
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RJ Spencer

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I believe he feels forsaken, I just don't know why for certain. I also believe he bore our sin as the sacrificial lamb and suffered a substitutionary death in our stead.

You lost me here. If God was taking out His wrath on Jesus, then the story of the vineyard makes no sense. In the Story, the owner of the vineyard sends servants to collect their masters share from those he left in charge, and these wicked servants kill them one by one. Finally he sends his son and they kill him too.

Moreover the scripture is clear in identifying those who mock and scorn and scourge and crucify Jesus as wicked people, not people moved out of the Spirit of God. Revelations identifies the dragon as waiting to devour the child. The dragon is generally viewed as Satan, not God.

So you don't believe that God is sovereign? And you also deny that He can allow people to murder someone and still find them guilty of the murder? God can use men as tools or vessels to pour out His wrath on Jesus. What is Salvation to you? How is it achieved? Is Jesus a propitiation of our sins or not?
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Can the Trinity separate itself? How can God abandon God?

Please see the post I wrote earlier, it is a post number 11 in this thread. I believe that answers your question.

Does that mean he could not look upon himself?

Yes Jesus was pure, and without a sin. That's how we are made righteous in His name, but He also had to bare our sin for our sake, that does not mean He was a sinner, He just clothed Himself in our sin. Maybe He could not look at Himself also, I don't know I'm only guessing here, that He couldn't look at Himself but He had to carry our sins for our sake. Does that make any sense to you?
 
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