Church leaders holding services in defiance of lawful orders to do otherwise is...

  • Responsible

    Votes: 6 12.5%
  • Irresponsible

    Votes: 37 77.1%
  • I am not sure.

    Votes: 5 10.4%

  • Total voters
    48

Hazelelponi

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True, when their disease was evident. However, with this virus, we still do not know who has it and who does not have it among the general population as there is still much testing to be done. Also, people have it long before they have signs whatsoever, and can spread it to other people. It is a difficult situation.



It is sad to read what you have written that is going on in your country. Although I am confused. Your profile page indicates you are in the USA yet you say you do not have a single case in your country. Your profile also indicates you went on a break from the forum in August 2019 (hacked account)?

This thread is not about judging people, it is a discussion of a moral, ethical, and spiritual dilemma that many ministers are facing. Please reframe from your negative comments about Americans.

County, not country. (Littler place, a portion of the state I live in)

As far as it being a difficult situation, I do understand the issues we face, I'm not ignorant of them.

I can be disappointed by what I see here, I'm a citizen and get to have opinions about the political climate we face.

My governor has gone over the top; an extreme that is unnecessary. He is not even allowing parking lot church where the parishioners are in their cars, we cannot visit someones home if they are not family etc. etc.

They have made any form of church that is not on the internet illegal.

If we are to gain anything from this trial we now face, it is that we need to have more faith that ALL things work together for the good of those who love Him, and then walk in the faith we were given. Maybe that's the lesson here.

We have the ability to move mountains, if we have faith. Yet not enough of it in action to worship the way God designed us to, as a congregation in the hour of our trial. We should be showing our faith with our works
 
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Reborn1977

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County, not country. (Littler place, a portion of the state I live in)

I see...of course I know what a county is, I simply misread the word in your post. My apologies.


I understand the arguments on both sides. I mentioned to a fellow minister when this first began that in the days past Christians have met together in the face of death, Stalin had them dragged from their homes and killed when they met, as did many other leaders in various places throughout history - yet entire denominations have decided to cancel meeting because of potential danger, a danger which is real of course but not absolute. There are so many dynamics to consider in the choices we make regarding this situation.
 
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expos4ever

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1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?

Obviously not, and I should not need to explain why?


2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.
I don't know the technicalities of the law, but the government should, rather obviously, retain the right to suspend such meetings in the context of a pandemic.

3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?

They are behaving recklessly with other peoples lives - they should be prosecuted.

4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?

He is obviously wildly irresponsible and needs to be stopped. How did I reach my conclusion? It is beyond obvious that the current prohibition is entirely justified given what we know at this time.
 
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expos4ever

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I do not have the virus,......
It is very unlikely that you know this with any measure of certainty. I certainly hope you do not have the virus, but unless you have been in effective isolation from all others for a couple of weeks, you don't known. And even then, you could have the virus and never show any symptoms.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I see...of course I know what a county is, I simply misread the word in your post. My apologies.


I understand the arguments on both sides. I mentioned to a fellow minister when this first began that in the days past Christians have met together in the face of death, Stalin had them dragged from their homes and killed when they met, as did many other leaders in various places throughout history - yet entire denominations have decided to cancel meeting because of potential danger, a danger which is real of course but not absolute. There are so many dynamics to consider in the choices we make regarding this situation.

Not a problem on the misunderstanding..

No one wants to put our elderly at risk and the problems we face are real... but at the same time I think we can and should at least do small open air groups with distancing in place...

Some Christians have family they can meet with and pray with etc. but not everyone has that, and we are just throwing our brethren to the wind in the hour we need the most support...

It's just not good... and we will have to answer to it. Look how many people say physical attendance is unnecessary, and how many times we have said you need the support of the church in your Christian walk yet now everyone is saying its completely unnecessary when it truly is...

I'm finding it sad. I've spent a week now praying on the issue because no church is meeting here.. not one, and the sheriff has threatened arrest for any who even try....

and I keep thinking, I told God I would follow Him no matter what, I made that promise and can't fail Him now..

But now? Now I cant even keep that promise because there's no church to even attend but the one with my husband and myself.. and it just doesn't feel right. I feel as if I am failing God...

I rather wish there were others who felt like me, but I feel really alone.
 
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Reborn1977

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No one wants to put our elderly at risk and the problems we face are real... but at the same time I think we can and should at least do small open air groups with distancing in place...

Here where I am located in the Southeastern United States we do have those 'open-air' services as you mentioned.

But now? Now I cant even keep that promise because there's no church to even attend but the one with my husband and myself.. and it just doesn't feel right. I feel as if I am failing God...

You obviously have such a heart for God. :holy: With a heart like that I seriously doubt God thinks you are failing Him.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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As much as I miss our services, especially during Lent, as well as regular reception of the sacraments. Our priest reminded us, that St. Mary of Egypt, whom yesterday's service is dedicated to, only received communion once in her life, living apart from all others for many years. We have all been called to treat this time as a special Lent, living like hermits, and praying in our church in our house, the icon corner. The included picture is not mine, but resembles mine.
icon-corner-02.jpg
 
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Hazelelponi

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Here where I am located in the Southeastern United States we do have those 'open-air' services as you mentioned.



You obviously have such a heart for God. :holy: With a heart like that I seriously doubt God thinks you are failing Him.

I'm not so good as all that.. I just want to do what's right before Him, need to do better... a lot better.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Church services in defiance of government orders?


Throughout the country, there are some pastors, ministers, and church leaders who are continuing to hold church services even though the state government or the local government has placed restrictions upon doing so. Therefore these leaders are technically in defiance of a local ordinance.

Here are my questions to you on this topic.



When answering the questions please explain your position as thoroughly as possible, and if you feel your position is backed up by Scripture please provide that Scripture within your post.


1. In the middle of a health epidemic, is it morally, ethically, and spiritually responsible for ministers to be holding services where congregants are present? Why or Why not?


2. Do spiritual leaders have the right to hold said meetings, the spiritual right and the constitutional right? Elaborate on your beliefs.


3. The ministers that are being cited or jailed for holding meetings or services with more than 10 people, are they being treated fairly or unfairly? Why are why not?


4. Most importantly, is a minister who is holding these services being fair, properly shepherding, the people that God has given them to minister to? How did you reach your conclusion?
1. Do not forsake fellowship(Hebrews 10:25), though this does not mean that precautions should not be taken to mitigate the spread of disease(such as staying a certain distance apart while in the Church). If a person feels the need to continue going to Church and having fellowship there is no command of God against it, but rather they are continuing down the righteous path through fellowship with other believers.

2. Yes to the Spiritual right, and that is the only right that matters in this case. Since the Lord is clear that we must not forsake fellowship. A shepherd must continue to lead the Flock and guide them spiritually, especially in times of Crisis. Ephesians 4:11-16

3. If they are breaking the Laws of man then they will be punished by Man, that is how it goes. we are told that we must be put into prison and suffer punishment though we do no wrong(1 peter 2:19-24). But we must always obey God rather then men( Acts 4:19; Acts 5:29).

4. Yes they are being fair and following God's commands, though again they still have no excuse for not taking as many precautions as possible when they do come together to worship.

God bless
 
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Philip_B

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Love in Isolation

The word love is easily over used, and often used and misused in ways that sometimes leave one speechless. We understand that in popular culture it is often mistakenly limited to sexual attraction and coupling.

One of the hardest, or at least most clinical, descriptions of love was posited by Simon Phipps in his Book God on Monday in which he was arguing the case for Christianity in the Workplace, and Industrial Chaplains in particular.

Love is the accurate estimation of a need and the fulfilment of that need.​

This of course is essentially process driven and doesn’t seem to have an ontological base. By that I mean that this describes loving actions, but not necessarily Love of itself. Love of itself without action may seem pretty empty, however the actions spring from the love, and the actions are not of themselves the definition of love.

The current situation, as we face the Covid 19 Pandemic is of course a case in point. Where but a couple of months ago, not visiting someone might have been considered anything but loving, today that same act is indeed the loving thing to do.

How can it be that the opposite actions can spring from the same source in only a matter of weeks?

Joseph Fletcher, often seen as the father of Situation Ethics, and indeed wrote a book by that title, would seem to have shown to be correct. The context of the action is critical in determining the moral worth of the action. Of course this has the risk of being a very slippery slope, as it has been argued, and indeed often is by those seeking to justify actions that might otherwise be seen as reprehensible, that anything is possible. So whilst it is clear that context is not the sole defining criteria, it clearly is an important factor.

There is a show on TV (australia), Married at First Sight, which is a reality (so called) TV show based on the idea of people being paired by experts and marrying at the first meeting, and then tracking what happens through what they then call the experiment. Naturally enough many things go wrong, and last year we saw the experts asking some people where their moral compass was. Beyond the obvious reality that they should have been asking where their own moral compass was, it does also suggest that there are defining directions beyond the situation which govern what is ethical.

From early days in the history of Christianity, isolation has been a choice embraced in the main by the few. Anthony of Great escaped to the desert, to embrace such an isolation, and up around him drew the foundations of early monastic communities, known as the desert fathers. Throughout the Christian centuries people have drawn apart to be with God either as a lifestyle choice (hermits) or simply for a period of time to gain strength for the road ahead.

There are many examples in scripture where people have drawn away to pray, to contemplate, or for some other reason, and we see that in both Moses and Jesus. In the main there are people (and by no means everyone) who for some period have embraced isolation. In a sense in the current circumstance we have had isolation forced upon us. How we respond is important.

Some are in isolation with other members of the family, whilst for some isolation is a solo experience, and there is a big difference, not for one moment suggesting that either is easy. If we see this time as a prison sentence thrust upon us, we will rebel against it and will struggle with it. If we see this as a gift in time, then we are likely to have a more positive embrace of it.

The defining marks of Christianity should embrace:

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Galatians 5:22-23​

We are challenged to take some time to connect within ourselves and be at peace with both self and God. We should also remember that this time is not a time when we don’t care about each other, but rather a time when we do care. Remember the phone, some have forgotten amidst all the apps you can still use it to talk to another person. There is also texting and email. So unlike any other time in history we have more tools and a greater capacity to connect through isolation.
 
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Messerve

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Here where I am located in the Southeastern United States we do have those 'open-air' services as you mentioned.



You obviously have such a heart for God. :holy: With a heart like that I seriously doubt God thinks you are failing Him.
Unfortunately that hasn't even been worth suggesting until recently in the northern US (it's only finally in the 50's) and you'd still have a hard time convincing people, because it's hardly ever done and would be sort of counter-cultural (which is totally fine with me). However, my parents' church did it in the early 90's meeting at a local park for church one Sunday just for something different and it went over very well. People at my church have suggested it, but it's never gone anywhere. Now that everyone is already shut up at home I don't see it happening...
 
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Messerve

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I don't know of any church that is actually inaccessible. HOW it chooses to use its facilities is almost totally in their own control, and the issue here is wanting to use it in way that is dangerous. There is no reason that a church cannot operate, however. Just alter the particular way the premises are made usable and accessible.

For example, if "no more than ten people" is the rule, why do these churches insist upon packing every congregant in for a single Sunday service as is the usual format...rather than having six services for a little while?
While I agree, six services is a lot for one poor minister. ^_^ Now if a few rotate, definitely.
 
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Messerve

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Here baptisms are still held at the river, and whenever there are baptisms which need performed the church reserves part of the park and has a meeting after church for the baptism and time together...

It just depends on the area and the people really... I wanted baptised as soon as I was saved and my husband was all "it's winter and they are going to dunk you in icy water if you do it now"... lol

My mother in law said she had her baptism in winter but I obeyed my husband and waited for spring. I was baptised on Easter Sunday..
If I could do my baptism over again I would have chosen to be baptized in our local lake near a bridge where people driving by would see it. But it was November. My parents were first generation Christians so even as I was growing up we were sort of collectively figuring things out as a family. We didn't see the importance of baptism until I was already a teenager, so it wasn't immediately after my conversion but actually about ten years later.
 
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Albion

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While I agree, six services is a lot for one poor minister. ^_^ Now if a few rotate, definitely.
Right. These are unusual times and the church in other times has made difficult adjustments when they were needed.

Take the retreat of the faithful to the catacombs during the time of the Roman Empire's persecutions, for instance. Worshipping underground and using a coffin for an altar/holy table certainly had to be other than desirable!

(and there's no reason to suppose that only one minister would be available or, in most Christian denominations, that nothing could be done unless by an ordained clergyman)
 
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Toro

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There is a difference between "Do not gather in large groups" (affecting ALL group meetings) and "Do not worship."

Romans 13

I would be on the side of one that goes against a government order IF Christians were the ONLY group targetted, but this is NOT one of those times.

This is NOT a moment of persecution, it is a time of precaution.... there is a HUGE difference.
 
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Albion

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Romans 13

I would be on the side of one that goes against a government order IF Christians were the ONLY group targetted, but this is NOT one of those times.
I'd hope you would also be against an order if ALL religions were affected by it. ;)
 
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The Liturgist

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As much as I miss our services, especially during Lent, as well as regular reception of the sacraments. Our priest reminded us, that St. Mary of Egypt, whom yesterday's service is dedicated to, only received communion once in her life, living apart from all others for many years. We have all been called to treat this time as a special Lent, living like hermits, and praying in our church in our house, the icon corner. The included picture is not mine, but resembles mine.
icon-corner-02.jpg

Nice icon corner. ROCOR is keeping its parishes open where possible, by the way.
 
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The Liturgist

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I feel like the ban on access to sacramental church services, which in the UK is actually absolute, is a huge violation of civil liberty, and frankly I wish that the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Anglicans would have the guts to threaten excommunication and anathema to all government officials who interfere with church services on the grounds of sacrilege. The full “Bell, book and candle” excommunication (such as was recreated by Richard Burton in the classic film about St. Thomas Becket).

But at least some bishops are publically excommunicating government officials who allow abortion. We need bishops and in my Congregationalist case, pastors, who will hold the state to account by applying the ancient canons of the Ecumenical Council and anathematizing government officials whose conduct is a violation of the sanctity of life or compromises our religious freedom.
 
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