A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
Let me try another angle.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Since you obviously don't think this fits after chapter 19, where else in the book of Revelation do you propose this fits after? Obviously, it has to fit after satan has been cast out of heaven unto the earth. If an angel comes down from heaven to cast satan into the pit, the only logical place the angel would be coming down to is the earth, therefore satan would obviously have to be on the earth at the time. What I'm asking, after what events in Revelation, since you disagree it's meaning after any events recorded in chapter 19, do you propose that John sees this angel coming down from heaven, then casting satan into the pit? How does it make sense that an angel comes down from heaven to cast satan in the pit, except satan is not actually on the earth at the time? It doesn't.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

After what events in the verses above do you propose John saw an angel come down from heaven and cast him into the pit? One thing that seems obvious, assuming Amil is the correct position, John can't see an angel coming down from heaven then casting satan into the pit prior to verse 13.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Andthe great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the Old Testament that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

Revelation 9:1-5 correlates. It gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the Second Coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second Coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

Andrewn said:
You've repeated this so many times in the thread. Is there a point / a conclusion that you'd like to make? What difference does it make whether satan's "little season" is at the end of the Millennium or immediately after end of the Millennium? It sounds like splitting hairs to me.

Exactly! He has no point. He is trying to speak on behalf of Amil when he doesn't hold the view or understand it. I have 300 Amil books at home, and they all agree that Satan is released prior to the second coming. He is inventing a white elephant. It is a smokescreen for his Full Preterist views on this.

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

claninja said:
I absolutely agree that satan is loosed after/upon completion of the 1,000 years, I haven't stated otherwise.

However, According to tradtional Amillennialism, the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the ascension and 2nd coming, and not the time from the ascension to satan's little season.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

However, if this is not traditional Amillennialism, please provide support that the millennium is symbolic for the time between the cross and satan's little season.

None of your quotes say what you are alleging. Quite the opposite! Notwithstanding, I can comfortably speak for myself but you refuse to address what I (like millions of other Amils) believe. Address what I believe, not what you want me to believe. This is getting wearisome.

The spiritual loosing undoes the spiritual binding. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

keras · Apr 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Christ's resurrection gave the dead in Christ the ability to rise to heaven in spirit and reign with Christ.

Nowhere does the Bible say; People will go to live in heaven, and any resurrection of dead people will happen before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. The only exception is the Trib martyrs, as Revelation 20:4 says.

sovereigngrace said:
That is what Rev 20 is all about. There is nothing about Christ on earth in it - nothing.

The scene is set by Revelation 19:11-21: Christ's Return to the earth.
Also in Rev 20:9, heaven is mentioned as the place the fire comes from to destroy the huge army gathered by Satan. All earthly events; your vehement assertions are quite wrong.

sovereigngrace said:
6020 is Premil logic - they said the year 2000 was 6000 years from the beginning. We are now in 2020. Do the math. See the folly of their logic.

People who relate our Gregorian calendar to God's timing, are deservedly confused and show a sad lack of Biblical understanding.
The final 2000 year period commenced when Jesus was baptized, in 29.5 AD. In the 15th year of Tiberius. Luke 3:1

DavidPT · Apr 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 9:1-5 correlates. It gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the Second Coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second Coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

I agree the abyss is located on earth, or better yet, inside of the earth.

I find it puzzling that you argue, in regards to demons inside of the pit, that while they are locked up in it they can't even leave, but when it comes to satan being locked up in it, he can leave before the pit is ever opened, apparently. Why don't you argue the same about him as well? If he is seen roaming about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he might devour, and that he is doing this while he is supposed to be locked up in the pit, that obviously means he is able to leave the pit while he is locked up inside and before anyone has even opened the pit.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point about the demons locked up in the pit and that they can't leave until someone opens the pit, thus jumping to wrong conclusions? What exactly do you mean when you said the following---- the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. I get your point about the place being locked up previously, I therefore have no need for further clarity about that.

What I need further clarity about, what exactly do you mean by they can't leave while locked up in the pit? For example, if someone was locked up in jail, they obviously can't literally leave until someone unlocks the jail cell and let's them free. Are you meaning in that sense? Or are you meaning in some other sense, and if you are, I don't see another sense making sense no matter what that might be.

I also noticed that you called the pit a place. Does that mean you take it to be a literal place of some kind?

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

DavidPT said:
I agree the abyss is located on earth, or better yet, inside of the earth.

I find it puzzling that you argue, in regards to demons inside of the pit, that while they are locked up in it they can't even leave, but when it comes to satan being locked up in it, he can leave before the pit is ever opened, apparently. Why don't you argue the same about him as well? If he is seen roaming about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he might devour, and that he is doing this while he is supposed to be locked up in the pit, that obviously means he is able to leave the pit while he is locked up inside and before anyone has even opened the pit.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point about the demons locked up in the pit and that they can't leave until someone opens the pit, thus jumping to wrong conclusions? What exactly do you mean when you said the following---- the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. I get your point about the place being locked up previously, I therefore have no need for further clarity about that.

What I need further clarity about, what exactly do you mean by they can't leave while locked up in the pit? For example, if someone was locked up in jail, they obviously can't literally leave until someone unlocks the jail cell and let's them free. Are you meaning in that sense? Or are you meaning in some other sense, and if you are, I don't see another sense making sense no matter what that might be.

I also noticed that you called the pit a place. Does that mean you take it to be a literal place of some kind?

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!

The restraint is therefore solely spiritual. Anyway, the restraint is simply to do with the deception of the nations. Satan can no longer deceive the nations as he once did. It solely relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Satan would be unable to stop the Gospel advance to the (ethnos) Gentiles. The binding of the strong man does not suggest the devil cannot move or terrorise but that his range of movement is restricted. There are definite spiritual bounds to his activity. There are boundaries to his activity among the Gentiles which dictate where he is allowed to go and what he is allowed to do. There is a restraint upon him. There is someone over him determining the rules.

The binding of Satan is simply to do with the enlightenment of the nations. Many times the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Rev 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

keras said:
Nowhere does the Bible say; People will go to live in heaven,

Are you talking about the intermediate state? If so, where did the saints go upon death?

and any resurrection of dead people will happen before the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. The only exception is the Trib martyrs, as Revelation 20:4 says.

That proves the Amillennial position. The millennium is ongoing. Jesus comes after Satan's little season at the second coming. There are numerous passages describing the resurrection of dead people at the second coming. To deny that is to deny Scripture.

2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) ‘epifaneian’ (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is one physical resurrection day in which there are two types of raising, (1) unto life, (2) unto damnation. Acts 24:15 says, “there shall be a resurrection of the dead (singular), both of the just and unjust.”

This verse speaks of a singular “resurrection of the dead” not multiple resurrections (plural) of the dead as the Premillennialist would try and intimate. The fact that Paul differentiates between the wicked and the righteous in no way proves that these are two separate resurrections coming at the end of two separate ages split by 1,000 years+ of history (filled with all the produce of the curse – sin, death and corruption). No, it simply demonstrates that there are two types of resurrection in the one final resurrection of the dead at the end. In fact, for Premils to insist on their concept is to force something into the passage that doesn’t truly exist. Scripture constantly distinguishes between the wicked and the righteous even though they are found participating in the same event at the same time. Why would anyone think it strange that the Holy Spirit would identify the two different parties that take part in the general “resurrection of the dead”? After all, it is a normal biblical procedure to distinguish between these two conflicting camps. Although to suggest that the identifying of these two distinct parties indicates two separate events at two separate times is illogical.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise (anistemi) in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up (egeiro) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.

This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up (egeiro) in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up (anistemi ) in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”

Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”

keras · Apr 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Are you talking about the intermediate state? If so, where did the saints go upon death?

To the grave, where they await the GWT Judgment. For them and every dead person, the next conscious moment after they die, will be to stand before God in Judgment.
Proved by how Daniel 12:13 awaits this and David too awaits it. Acts 2:29

sovereigngrace said:
That proves the Amillennial position. The millennium is ongoing. Jesus comes after Satan's little season at the second coming. There are numerous passages describing the resurrection of dead people at the second coming. To deny that is to deny Scripture.

The Bible tells us plainly that Jesus will Return after the Great Tribulation. Revelation 19:11, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3
THEN, the Millennium will commence, with Jesus as the King on the earth.

Your lengthy, TL-DR, attempt to prove your beliefs, is simply wrong and a flat out contradiction of scripture.

sovereigngrace · Apr 5, 2020

keras said:
To the grave, where they await the GWT Judgment. For them and every dead person, the next conscious moment after they die, will be to stand before God in Judgment.
Proved by how Daniel 12:13 awaits this and David too awaits it. Acts 2:29

So, do you believe in soul sleep? Where do the wicked go in the intermediate state? Where do the elect go in the intermediate state?

The Bible tells us plainly that Jesus will Return after the Great Tribulation. Revelation 19:11, Matthew 24:30, Zechariah 14:3
THEN, the Millennium will commence, with Jesus as the King on the earth.

Your lengthy, TL-DR, attempt to prove your beliefs, is simply wrong and a flat out contradiction of scripture.

Again, the only way your argument stands is by you ignoring the opposing argument. You do that often, unfortunately.

Those who are accustomed to milk are not interested in meat. It is the meat of the Word that forbids your doctrine.

keras · Apr 5, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
So, do you believe in soul sleep? Where do the wicked go in the intermediate state? Where do the elect go in the intermediate state?

Yes, the dead know nothing. They 'sleep' in the grave until the end of time; at the GWT.
Only the martyrs are allowed, at certain times to cry out, as we are told in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 19:1-3
No scripture says that any human will actually live in heaven. That idea is a fable.

sovereigngrace said:
Again, the only way your argument stands is by you ignoring the opposing argument. You do that often, unfortunately.

I reject all unscriptural and fanciful teachings. Thinking that we are in the Millennium now, is one of them. Without plain scriptures, you don't have an opposing argument.

sovereigngrace said:
Those who are accustomed to milk are not interested in meat. It is the meat of the Word that forbids your doctrine.

An accusation like this rebounds onto yourself.
You have no idea of who I am and what do and have done.

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

keras said:
Yes, the dead know nothing. They 'sleep' in the grave until the end of time; at the GWT.
Only the martyrs are allowed, at certain times to cry out, as we are told in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 19:1-3
No scripture says that any human will actually live in heaven. That idea is a fable.

Really? I would recommend you pick your Bible up before making false statements like this.

Believers go to heaven upon death

Jesus said in Matthew 22:32, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus said in Mark 12:27 records, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.”

Jesus said in Luke 20:38 records, “For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”

The Bible says they are alive.

Philippians 2:9-11 says, “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Here are the three places that men can currently be found – heaven, earth, and hell. Whilst saved and lost can both be found on earth, only the redeemed are in heaven and only the wicked are in hell. Revelation 5:3 repeats that, saying, “And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.”

Ephesians 3:14-15 alludes to the two places where the redeemed can be found, saying, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

Family or 'patria' represents paternal descent lineage, family kindred. It is also found in Luke 2:4, Acts 3:25 denoting house[hold] or family.

Ephesians 1:10 records: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Luke 9:28-31 says of Christ, “he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”

Moses and Elijah were still very much alive and kicking!!!

Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

The passage continues, “Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:19-31).

The just are clearly “comforted” here.

The lost are clearly “tormented” here.

But it talking about the man in hell sending someone to his brothers who were still physically alive and warning them about the flames. This can't be after the coming of Christ.

Jesus said to the dying thief, in Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Acts 7:59-60 records, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Stephen’s spirit was separating from his body and went to be with God. However, his body was going to the grave.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather ‘to be absent’ from the body, and ‘to be present’ with the Lord."

‘ekdeemeesai’ – ‘be absent’

‘endeemeesai’ – ‘be present’

Paul said in Philippians 1:21-24 says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”

Death was a promotion for Paul!!!

1 Thessalonians 5:10 tells us that Christ “died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

The writer to the Hebrews censures such a foolish earthly notion of focusing upon the physical Jerusalem below, in Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, saying, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest …but ye are come unto mount sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Revelation

Revelation 14:13 agrees: “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

In Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:6, 19:4, we see 24 Elders around the throne in heaven. Who are they? Also, in Revelation 7 we see several references to 144,000 in heaven that have been redeemed from off the earth. Who are they?

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.”

And continues, “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is unquestionably speaking (1) of heaven and also (2) of a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) says, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here we clearly have a heavenly scene, and a heavenly scene in this present period of time. It reveals the risen saints in glory awaiting the consummation of all things.

Revelation 15:1-3 says, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, andover his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.”

Again, this relates to the intra-Advent period. Also, there is no doubt that this scene is in heaven and that “victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name” evidently meant martyrdom for those in view. However, absent from the body for the believer assuredly means present with the Lord in His heavenly abode.

Revelation 7:9-14 adds further light on the matter, saying, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

The souls are therefore identified here as (1) the redeemed and are clearly located (2) in heaven.

Verse 15 continues, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

The wicked go to hell upon death

Jesus said in Mark 9:43-48: “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

That word “quenched” is the word extinguished. The fire is never extinguished. This is the place where Jesus said of the wicked: “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”

It is a place of eternal (never ending) torment.

Revelation 14:10-11 tells us that the wicked, “shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstonein the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.”

This place is too awful to comprehend. Most people don’t think about it until they arrive there. Then it is too late. In fact ‘too late’ is written on the gates of hell. You will find all types of people here – even the religious.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:41-46: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

Revelation 20:10: “and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone....and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Obviously your teachers have taught to you badly wrong.

I reject all unscriptural and fanciful teachings. Thinking that we are in the Millennium now, is one of them. Without plain scriptures, you don't have an opposing argument.

An accusation like this rebounds onto yourself.
You have no idea of who I am and what do and have done.

Most Amils here are into more that your normal fly-by evasive replies.

keras · Apr 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Obviously your teachers have taught to you badly wrong.

I have had no teaching in any subject other than Salvation. All the rest is from my own intensive Bible study.
So I reject your supposition that people can live in heaven. None, not one; of your scriptures actually says this.
Paul says that is what he would like, not what will actually happen and our name is Written in heaven, but never does the Bible say: we humans will go to live there.

The proof of all the faithful people of God, continued existence on earth is the 2 plainly stated versed of Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, which show the holy people of God here on earth when the Anti-Christ conquers them.
We are here when Jesus Returns and we are on earth for the Millennium. After the Millennium, those worthy will receive Eternal life and will live with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Evasive replies? Your technique is to flood the thread with anything and everything, relevant or not. I call that an attempt to overwhelm the issue with volume.
Short and succinct replies are best, ones that prove you point. A bunch of scriptures that seem to you as proof, but properly studied and in their context, are not; actually add up to make the idea of people going to heaven; a false teaching and a Satanic lie.

claninja · Apr 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
None of your quotes say what you are alleging. Quite the opposite!

I am saying traditional Amils define the 1,000 year as symbolic for the time that started at the ascension and ends at the 2nd coming. So which quote is specifically stating the opposite? Quote 1, 2, 3, and/or 4? Can you explain why even 1 or all 4 quotes, which all agree that the 1,000 years is the time from the ascension to the 2nd coming, are opposite of my view that the traditional amil position holds that the 1,000 years is from the time of the ascension to the 2nd coming.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

sovereigngrace said:
Notwithstanding, I can comfortably speak for myself but you refuse to address what I (like millions of other Amils) believe.

If you don't hold to the traditional view point of Amil, that's fine. Just don't say its false that the traditional amil position holds that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the ascension and 2nd coming.

sovereigngrace said:
Address what I believe, not what you want me to believe. This is getting wearisome.

That's ironic.......

sovereigngrace said:
The spiritual loosing undoes the spiritual binding. They are the antithesis to each other. They do not co-exist. One occurs after the other.

Again I agree that satan was bound at the cross, thus the nations received the gospel and satan can no longer accuse the elect.

however, Your view does not explain the how the following can occur while the gospel is being received by the nations:

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

claninja · Apr 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to Revelation 12, I don't see the cross being focused on in that chapter, but I do see the ascension being focused on, that meaning Revelation 12:5. Obviously, the time of the cross occurs during the events recorded in Revelation 12, except that chapter doesn't appear to be focusing on that in particular. As to the war in heaven, then satan being cast out, it would have to be after the ascension when any of that occurs. And if satan is bound in this age like Amils claim, it would have to be after the ascension as well.

It is by his ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension, that Jesus disarmed powers and authorities. I use colossians 2:14-15 to interpret the war in heaven of revelation 12.

colossians 2:14-15 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

revelation 12:7-9 Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

keras said:
I have had no teaching in any subject other than Salvation. All the rest is from my own intensive Bible study.
So I reject your supposition that people can live in heaven. None, not one; of your scriptures actually says this.
Paul says that is what he would like, not what will actually happen and our name is Written in heaven, but never does the Bible say: we humans will go to live there.

The proof of all the faithful people of God, continued existence on earth is the 2 plainly stated versed of Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, which show the holy people of God here on earth when the Anti-Christ conquers them.
We are here when Jesus Returns and we are on earth for the Millennium. After the Millennium, those worthy will receive Eternal life and will live with God on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Evasive replies? Your technique is to flood the thread with anything and everything, relevant or not. I call that an attempt to overwhelm the issue with volume.
Short and succinct replies are best, ones that prove you point. A bunch of scriptures that seem to you as proof, but properly studied and in their context, are not; actually add up to make the idea of people going to heaven; a false teaching and a Satanic lie.

It is impossible engaging with someone who repeatedly avoids the sacred text and multiple arguments that negate your position and is only comfortable voicing his own personal opinions and superficial digging. I refer you back to the avoided posts and avoided Scripture.

Clearly your position is untenable!

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

claninja said:
I am saying traditional Amils define the 1,000 year as symbolic for the time that started at the ascension and ends at the 2nd coming. So which quote is specifically stating the opposite? Quote 1, 2, 3, and/or 4? Can you explain why even 1 or all 4 quotes, which all agree that the 1,000 years is the time from the ascension to the 2nd coming, are opposite of my view that the traditional amil position holds that the 1,000 years is from the time of the ascension to the 2nd coming.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

If you don't hold to the traditional view point of Amil, that's fine. Just don't say its false that the traditional amil position holds that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the ascension and 2nd coming.

I have noted your lack of credible evidence for both your doctrines and factual detail (as above). This is just another example of it. That is why i ignore most of it. You seem to take that as corroboration for your position, but it is the opposite. I don't have the motivation or interest to quote 300 Amil writers. You are determined to misrepresent Amil, and no one will change you. Why should I waste time?

It doesn't matter how someone who espouses Full Preterist error defines Amil. It doesn't matter how some nameless Mod on another forum defines Amil. It doesn't matter how Dispensationalist John Walvoord defines Amil. It matters how Amils define themselves.

What is more, Amil J.G. Vos believes what I do on this matter. If you would simply take the time to do some research instead of posting this stuff it would save you a lot of time misrepresenting other peoples views. He states in Studies on Revelation: "Many of these, and people who hold the amillennial interpretation hold that post-millennialists have tended to by-pass or treat very lightly the Bible prophecies of the increase of evil, a kind of thing that we have noticed some of in our study of this book. The beast and the false prophet, and so forth, who seem to be disposed of by Christ at His Second Coming, not by the triumph of world evangelism or missions. That is amillennialism. It would hold that for a long period of time Satan has been largely limited in what he can do. That however at the end of this long period, he must be released for “a little season,” and that it is possible that we are now on the verge of the beginning of Satan’s “little season.” We are seeing unbelief and wickedness bold and extreme, and the influence of Christianity and the saints among the educated and intelligent people of this world greatly toned down and restricted."

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

claninja said:
Again I agree that satan was bound at the cross, thus the nations received the gospel and satan can no longer accuse the elect.

however, Your view does not explain the how the following can occur while the gospel is being received by the nations:

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

You are trying to present a BIG devil and a small god. Amil has a BIG God and a small devil.

Yes, 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

We have power over Satan since the cross! While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. By resisting Satan and staying steadfast we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of his evil designs. This was powerfully manifested at the time of our conversion when the grip of Satan was immediately released. The claim he had upon our lives was instantly annulled and the control he brought to bare within us was immediately broke. The chains that brutally ensnared us fell off and the bondage Satan bound us with was lifted. Significantly, what is true of the individual is also true of the collective. When the Gospel penetrates into a community, city or a nation the same effect is wrought. We destroy Satan’s power, influence and delusion as we present “the glorious Gospel of Christ” through the nations. Satan cannot resist the victorious global spread of the Gospel. Through the work of the cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power to bind the devil’s activity and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe?

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Amils believe the Church is victorious. Your doctrine is a negative defeated theology full of doom and gloom. Ephesians 6:16 tells us that by “faith” believers are, “able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked [one].” Being the people of God, born of the Spirit of God, we are sanctioned to “withstand in the evil day” (Ephesians 6:13). Through the power of God we are “able to stand against the wiles of the devil” (Ephesians 6:11) and “having done all, to stand.”

Amils don't deny that the kingdom will arrive in all its fullness and final glory at Christ's Coming and we will reign eternally on the regenerated earth, but we reign now "in life" (Romans 5:17) as "kings and priests" (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6) advancing the battle for truth in enemy territory and reigning in spiritual authority over the kingdom of darkness. Our battle is not against "flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) but “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:13 & 14, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

So if it is not a physical battle with physical weapons it is a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”

We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realization of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, “we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

DavidPT · Apr 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are trying to present a BIG devil and a small god. Amil has a BIG God and a small devil.

Yes, 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

We have power over Satan since the cross! While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. By resisting Satan and staying steadfast we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of his evil designs. This was powerfully manifested at the time of our conversion when the grip of Satan was immediately released. The claim he had upon our lives was instantly annulled and the control he brought to bare within us was immediately broke. The chains that brutally ensnared us fell off and the bondage Satan bound us with was lifted. Significantly, what is true of the individual is also true of the collective. When the Gospel penetrates into a community, city or a nation the same effect is wrought. We destroy Satan’s power, influence and delusion as we present “the glorious Gospel of Christ” through the nations. Satan cannot resist the victorious global spread of the Gospel. Through the work of the cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power to bind the devil’s activity and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe?

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Amils believe the Church is victorious. Your doctrine is a negative defeated theology full of doom and gloom. Ephesians 6:16 tells us that by “faith” believers are, “able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked [one].” Being the people of God, born of the Spirit of God, we are sanctioned to “withstand in the evil day” (Ephesians 6:13). Through the power of God we are “able to stand against the wiles of the devil” (Ephesians 6:11) and “having done all, to stand.”

Amils don't deny that the kingdom will arrive in all its fullness and final glory at Christ's Coming and we will reign eternally on the regenerated earth, but we reign now "in life" (Romans 5:17) as "kings and priests" (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6) advancing the battle for truth in enemy territory and reigning in spiritual authority over the kingdom of darkness. Our battle is not against "flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) but “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:13 & 14, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

So if it is not a physical battle with physical weapons it is a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”

We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realization of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, “we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Amils such as yourself have to take things totally out of context in order to make it appear that Amil is agreeing with the texts involved. satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. The nations meant are not meaning the church, they are meaning God's enemies, apparently.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication , and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived .

Does this sound like the nations are meaning the church? Does this sound like satan hasn't been deceiving the nations during the church age? So why are you applying the reason for satan's binding to that of the church when Revelation 20 isn't?

What I have underlined in Revelation 12:9, what tense is that in according to the Greek?

The way it looks to me---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---this either leads to satan being bound a thousand years, or this is meaning after satan is loosed after the thousand years. Obviously, he deceives the nations twice, before the thousand years, and after the thousand years. No reasonable person should then think he also deceives the nations while he is in the pit. The question is, has he been deceiving the nations any time during the past 2000 years? Because if he has he obviously can't be in the pit for the past 2000 years. Therefore---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---is followed by him being bound a thousand years. Something has to explain why he gets bound a thousand years. Why not this?

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
Amils such as yourself have to take things totally out of context in order to make it appear that Amil is agreeing with the texts involved. satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. The nations meant are not meaning the church, they are meaning God's enemies, apparently.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication , and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived .

Does this sound like the nations are meaning the church? Does this sound like satan hasn't been deceiving the nations during the church age? So why are you applying the reason for satan's binding to that of the church when Revelation 20 isn't?

What I have underlined in Revelation 12:9, what tense is that in according to the Greek?

The way it looks to me---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---this either leads to satan being bound a thousand years, or this is meaning after satan is loosed after the thousand years. Obviously, he deceives the nations twice, before the thousand years, and after the thousand years. No reasonable person should then think he also deceives the nations while he is in the pit. The question is, has he been deceiving the nations any time during the past 2000 years? Because if he has he obviously can't be in the pit for the past 2000 years. Therefore---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---is followed by him being bound a thousand years. Something has to explain why he gets bound a thousand years. Why not this?

Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the ‘ethnee’ (or) nations (or Gentiles) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.”

Many Christians overlook, and consequently misunderstand, the Holy Spirit’s use of the term “the nations” in this much-debated chapter. Notwithstanding, failing to grasp this phraseology could potentially lead the Bible student into all forms of strange eschatological speculations in relation to the nature, substance and timing of the binding of Satan in this reading. In fact, understanding the meaning of the term “the nations” is the key to comprehending the rest of Revelation 20 and therefore establishing the exact location of this symbolic passage in time. The reason for stating all this emanates from the fact that the binding of Satan specifically and inextricably relates to the removal of the deception that covered “the nations” – therefore giving us a massive clue as to the correct placement of this passage in time.

Up until this passage, there is not one single reference in Scripture describing a 1,000-year reign of Christ and the saints on earth after the second coming of Christ. This fact alone would lead most fair-minded Bible students to question its placement after the Coming of Christ.

We can therefore confidently let Scripture locate this much-debated passage in its rightful position in history because of the wealth of New Testament passages that address the removing of the satanic blindfold from “the nations” and the subsequent enlightenment of a once overwhelmingly paganised world. Adam Clarke succinctly says, reference the phrase, “He should deceive the nations no more” that Satan would be “unable to blind men with superstition and idolatry as he had formerly done.”

Significantly, the Greek word interpreted “nations” in Revelation 20 in the King James Version is the Greek word ‘éthnee’ which is repeatedly translated Gentiles throughout the whole of the New Testament. In essence it means the nations, the heathen, or the non-Jews. The word is rendered Gentiles in the following passages: Matthew 4:15, 6:32, 10:5, 18, 12:18, 21, 20:19, 25, 21:43, Mark 10:33, 42, Luke 2:32, 18:32, 21:24, 22:25, Acts 4:27, 7:45, 9:15, 10:45, 11:1, 18, 13:46, 47, 48, 14:2, 5, 27, 15:3, 7, 12, 14, 17, 19, 23, 18:6, 21:11, 19, 21, 25, 22:21, 26:17, 20, 23, Romans 1:13, 2:14, 24, 3:29, 9:24, 30, 11:11, 12, 13, 25, 15:9, 10, 11, 12, 16, 18, 27, 16:4, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 12:2, Galatians 2:2, 8, 12, 14, 15, 3:14, Ephesians 2:11, 3:1, 6, 8, 4:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 Thessalonians 2:16, 4:5, 1 Timothy 2:7, 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Peter 2:12, 4:3, Revelation 11:2.

In fact, the most common rendering of the word in the New Testament is the word Gentiles, with eighty-three references in total in the King James Version, many of them key passages that relate to the Gospel going out to the darkened Gentiles after the Cross. Such a consistent translation shows that the interpreters could have reasonably interpreted the Greek word ‘éthnee’ in Revelation 20:3 as Gentiles.

Notwithstanding, the term “the nations” (plural) is used repeatedly in Scripture to represent the Gentile nations and particularly to distinguish them from “the nation” (singular) of natural Israel where God chose to exclusively manifest His glory for thousands of years before the Cross. Incidentally, this differentiation is common in both the Old and the New Testament. The nation of natural Israel was the sole national carrier of the favour of God for most of history; therefore, all nations outside of that “nation” were rightly viewed as heathen, idolatrous and unregenerate. The prophets and disciples would have often of used varying terms like “the nations,” “the heathen,” “the whole world” and “the Gentiles” to describe the exact same once totally deluded non-Jewish people.

Many Bible students totally ignore this fact and consequently force an interpretation upon Revelation 20 that can in no way be corroborated by other Scripture. In reality, the binding of Satan relates exclusively to the actual curtailing of Satan from specifically deceiving the Gentile nations as he once did before, prior to Calvary.

keras · Apr 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is impossible engaging with someone who repeatedly avoids the sacred text and multiple arguments that negate your position and is only comfortable voicing his own personal opinions and superficial digging. I refer you back to the avoided posts and avoided Scripture.

Clearly your position is untenable!

This is an opiniated rant, a personal attack that shows an intransigent attitude.

Just show me ONE scripture that says God will take His people to heaven. No assumptions, suppositions, or guesswork.

You would then be the winner of this discussion. As you fail to provide this proof, then you are the loser.

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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