Law of Moses written on heart and mind under the NEW Covenant

BobRyan

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Here is Deuteronomy 33:4

Moses charged us with a law, a possession for the assembly of Jacob.

Seems like the writer agree with Paul who distinguishes the Jew under the law from the Gentile who is not.

Nope - as 1 John 3:4 and James 2 and Romans 3:19-20, 23 remind us "ALL" have sinned ... "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and even for gentile Christians "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where that LAW of God includes the one where "the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:1-2 - in that still-valid-for-mankind unit "of TEN".

Which means --... "it is still a sin" to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - as almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth agrees.

(this is irrefutable - BTW)

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are for Christians, in fact.. .for all mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
 
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BobRyan

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Example: One poster repeatedly declares that 1 John 3:4 defines sin as transgression of "the Law".

Because he "reads the Bible" and the Bible says
"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 KJV
Just as James 2 also affirms even in the NASB

This is the easy part

from page 1 of this thread -

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
 
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expos4ever

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Nope - as 1 John 3:4 and James 2 and Romans 3:19-20, 23 remind us "ALL" have sinned ... "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
You have been repeatedly informed that the "sin is transgression of the Law" is not the proper translation of the 1 John 3:4. You obviously don't care about honest exegesis; however other posters should not be misled.
 
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expos4ever

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Which means --... "it is still a sin" to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - as almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth agrees.
True, but your implied logic is faulty. Just because it is still sin to take the Lord's name in vain does not mean that that Law of Moses is still in force.

Suppose they abolished the law against murder; does this mean it is not a sin to commit murder?

Let's think, people.
 
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BobRyan

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Here is Deuteronomy 33:4

Moses charged us with a law, a possession for the assembly of Jacob.

Seems like the writer agree with Paul who distinguishes the Jew under the law from the Gentile who is not.

Nope - as 1 John 3:4 and James 2 and Romans 3:19-20, 23 remind us "ALL" have sinned ... "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" and even for gentile Christians "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where that LAW of God includes the one where "the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:1-2 - in that still-valid-for-mankind unit "of TEN".

Which means --... "it is still a sin" to take God's name in vain Ex 20:7 - as almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth agrees.

(this is irrefutable - BTW)

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm that ALL TEN of the Ten Commandments are for Christians, in fact.. .for all mankind.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

True, but your implied logic is faulty. Just because it is still sin to take the Lord's name in vain does not mean that that Law of Moses is still in force.

Turns out - it does because as Eph 6:2 states - it is THAT LAW where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise".

And what unit of law has that feature - as Paul already knew.
 
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BobRyan

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You have been repeatedly informed that the "sin is transgression of the Law" is not the proper translation of the 1 John 3:4. You obviously don't care about honest exegesis; however other posters should not be misled.

You have been repeatedly informed (starting on page 1 of this thread in fact) that you are complaining about the KJV for 1 John 3:4 in the form of a "distinction without a difference" since James 2 in all translations makes the very case you seek to avoid in the KJV translation of 1 John 3:4.

Where we simply "not supposed to notice"??


- the LAW defines what sin is and places "every mouth" in fact "all the world" under that condemnation as "sinners" in need of the Gospel as we see in Romans 3:19-20.


KJV - 1 John 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Just as we see the NASB doing in James 2

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

====

Clearly as KJV and NASB show us comparing NASB James 2:8-11 with KJV 1 John 3:4

Both translations are saying that sin IS transgression of the LAW

In fact it is the LAW that defines what sin IS - (being transgression of that Law)

The moral law of God defines what sin IS - and places all mankind under condemnation as sinners in need of the Gospel:

Romans 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"
 
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expos4ever

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Nope - as 1 John 3:4 and James 2 and Romans 3:19-20, 23 remind us "ALL" have sinned ... "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"
You lie.

At least in respect to 1 John 3:4. The original Greek does not have "the Law"; it has lawlessness.
 
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expos4ever

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Just as we see the NASB doing in James 2

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
All right, let's deal with James 2. In the course of dealing with your constant falsehoods and misinformation, I have not had the opportunity to address this issue. I cannot improve on this, from swordsman1

Here James is accusing his readers of treating others differently and in doing so breaking the whole of the Royal Law (v8-9). The Royal Law is the commandments of the King, that is Jesus, and especially the greatest commandment he gave:

‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

James then uses examples from the 10 commandments as an illustration, which were regarded as a whole by the Jews (you break one, you have broken them all). James then applies this old covenant logic to the New covenant "law of liberty" (v12). It is not the OT law per se that he urges perfect compliance with, but "the royal law" (v8), "the law of liberty" .
Given your history, I would not be at all surprised if you are knowingly suppressing the fact that "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is NOT from the Law of Moses. You, of course, cannot afford to acknowledge this since it demonstrates that "the law" here in James 2 is not the Law of Moses.

Royal Law - laid down by Jesus.
Law of Moses - Old Covenant

You seem to not accept this distinction. Well, take it up with James and Paul, then.
 
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swordsman1

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Turns out - it does because as Eph 6:2 states - it is THAT LAW where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise".

The NT commandment for Christians to obey is "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right" (Eph 6:1). Just because Paul followed that with a quote from the Ten commandments doesn't mean the Ten commandments are in force.

Jesus reminded the leper of the Mosaic law to make an animal sacrifice. Does that mean the animal sacrifice laws are still in force?

Is the 4th commandment (the Sabbath) ever quoted in the New Testament, let alone commanded?
 
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expos4ever

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Just as we see the NASB doing in James 2

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Yet another argument as to why "the law" here cannot be the Law of Moses. You did not include the very next statement from James, and it is critical, as we will see:

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

So whatever "law" James is writing about here, it is a law "of liberty". In contrast, here is what Paul writes about the Law of Moses:

......The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

.....
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death

....But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind

Does Paul believe that the Law of Moses is a "law of liberty"? Let the reader judge.
 
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expos4ever

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Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"
Bob, here is how someone who is engaging in honest debating behaves: I concede that I have yet to provide an explanation of this particular text that coheres with my belief that the Scriptures teach that the Law of Moses has been retired. I hope to get to it, but it is a challenge, I fully admit.

Contrast such openness with your recalcitrancy relative to 1 John 3:4 - you doggedly deny the proper meaning of the greek word that translates as "lawlessness".
 
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swordsman1

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Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

"we establish the law" does not mean Christians are obliged to obey the Law. That would contradict numerous other scriptures that say otherwise. No, Paul is referring to the way in which our faith in Christ fulfills the demands of the law (see Rom 8:4). Do we nullify the Law through faith? No, we establish the Law through faith. That is Paul's point.
 
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expos4ever

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"we establish the law" does not mean Christians are obliged to obey the Law. That would contradict numerous other scriptures that say otherwise. No, Paul is referring to the way in which our faith in Christ fulfills the demands of the law (see Rom 8:4). Do we nullify the Law through faith? No, we establish the Law through faith. That is Paul's point.
I have yet to try to grapple with this text, however I suspect I will agree with your analysis.

As you say, there are, of course, many other texts that rather clearly declare that the Law of Moses is in the rear view mirror, as it were. So while this particular text (Romans 3:31) could, if read in complete isolation, be taken to affirm that the Law of Moses lives on, the overall picture strongly suggests otherwise.
 
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BobRyan

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KJV - 1 John 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
..
Rom 3:23 "ALL" have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"



"we establish the law" does not mean Christians are obliged to obey the Law.

Until you read the Bible in places like James 2 and Ephesians 2 where we find we are to honor our parents a command that " is the FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - as we have already seen numerous times so far.

1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither
fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor effeminate,
nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves,
nor the covetous,
nor drunkards,
nor revilers,
nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

As Paul reminds us in Romans 8 -- it is only the wicked who "do not submit to the LAW of God neither indeed CAN they" -- by contrast to the saints who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Rom 3:31 "do WE then make void the LAW of God by our faith? on the contrary! We ESTABLISH the LAW"

That's "the law" in the same chapter and context as we see it in Rom 3:19-20 that applies to "all the world" ... "every mouth" such that we have Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned"... all need the gospel.

And I have already shown numerous Bible commentaries easily admitting to that "detail"

.. I concede that I have yet to provide an explanation of this particular text that coheres with my belief that the Scriptures teach that the Law of Moses has been retired. I hope to get to it, but it is a challenge, I fully admit.

Ok -- but I hope you would also agree that we can all easily see that point. It is not like it is a hidden detail that someone reading this thread would not be aware of at this point. Hopefully we can agree on that.

Contrast such openness with your recalcitrancy relative to 1 John 3:4 - you doggedly deny the proper meaning of the greek word that translates as "lawlessness".

1. I am not the author of 1 John 3:4 nor the translator in the KJV version of it.
2. Both the NASB in James 2 and the KJV in 1 John 3:4 are making the same point.
3. The "distinction without a difference" that you keep arguing for is that "some other" manuscript than was used as the Greek text for the KJV is "better" -- as IF we all would admit to your "older is better" when in fact we already know that "old garbage is not better than new pizza". The older manuscripts discarded by the Christians of their day - were discarded/trashed "for a reason". This detail keeps eluding your responses.
4. The very specificity you are trying to delete from the KJV manuscript used for 1 John 3:4 in your attempt to make it broader and more generic - is already present in all translations in James 2. This detail keeps eluding your responses.
5. You don't have any evidence at all that the KJV was poorly translated from greek source document - because you don't have that greek source document - yet your entire argument is that the NASB greek source document is more reliable than the you-never-saw-it greek source document for the KJV. You realize that right?
 
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expos4ever

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...and the difference is significant because...
Because it undercuts any argument that we need the Law of Moses in particular, to the exclusions of other 'sources', such as direct revelation from the indwelling Spirit, to know what sin is.
 
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HARK!

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Because it undercuts any argument that we need the Law of Moses in particular, to the exclusions of other 'sources', such as direct revelation from the indwelling Spirit, to know what sin is.

That's an interesting opinion; but I'll just stick with scripture.

(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we |declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."
 
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Dkh587

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Because it undercuts any argument that we need the Law of Moses in particular, to the exclusions of other 'sources', such as direct revelation from the indwelling Spirit, to know what sin is.
Knowledge of sin comes through the law of Moses.
 
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