Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

Al Touthentop said:

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I think that once we make it, it will not be a question we care about. We were made, God favored us and we obeyed. There's no real benefit in knowing about the creation if it doesn't deal with God's love for us. Molecules and DNA and all of that are knowledge that won't in the end save us. That doesn't mean it isn't useful to us in the practical sense. It just has no benefit in the spiritual sense.

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I agree almost completely.

I think basically God keeps man from knowing "where he is up to" because if man knew what he was expected to do, he would never do it?

We will want to compare how well we have done, in Heaven, as an afterthought - but the idea that we will get to Heaven with the same idea of the beginning in mind, is carnal and not of the truth.

KenJackson said:

By evolution I refer to the formation of all the taxons from the hypothetical first microbial life to the taxonomic families observed today and in fossils.

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Hi Ken. I think most people are confused about what evolutionary theory is. Evolutionary theory is an explanation for how life came to be what it is without any intelligence, guidance, intent or purpose. That's it. Everything that happens is due to dumb-luck, random chance.

Intelligent design is the opposite; intelligent, purpose, and intent was applied to cause life to be what it is. That means a series of small changes over time from simple to complex would not be theistic evolution. It would be intelligent design. In that case, such small changes leading up to greater complexity could be possible, because an intelligence would be guiding those changes with purpose.

I do not think that is how the creator caused us to be what we are, though. I am only saying that it's important to be clear regarding the concepts.

John Helpher said:

Hi Ken. I think most people are confused about what evolutionary theory is. Evolutionary theory is an explanation for how life came to be what it is without any intelligence, guidance, intent or purpose. That's it. Everything that happens is due to dumb-luck, random chance.

Intelligent design is the opposite; intelligent, purpose, and intent was applied to cause life to be what it is. That means a series of small changes over time from simple to complex would not be theistic evolution. It would be intelligent design. In that case, such small changes leading up to greater complexity could be possible, because an intelligence would be guiding those changes with purpose.

I do not think that is how the creator caused us to be what we are, though. I am only saying that it's important to be clear regarding the concepts.

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You're also confused about what evolution is.
Evolution is just gradual change over time, in the case of biology, it is hereditary gradual change over time.

Jamdoc said:

Evolution is just gradual change over time, in the case of biology, it is hereditary gradual change over time.

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Yeah, that's part of it, except I also made it clear that evolutionary theory specifically denies any intelligence, purpose, or intent. This means something like theistic evolution is a contradiction in terms, since theistic involvement equates to applied intelligence.

I also suggested that perhaps God did cause life to be what it is through trillions of tiny changes over millions of years, but it would be inappropriate to refer to that as anything related to evolution, since evolution denies intelligence. If intelligence is involved, then it should be referred to as intelligent design.

John Helpher said:

Yeah, that's part of it, except I also made it clear that evolutionary theory specifically denies any intelligence, purpose, or intent. This means something like theistic evolution is a contradiction in terms, since theistic involvement equates to applied intelligence.

I also suggested that perhaps God did cause life to be what it is through trillions of tiny changes over millions of years, but it would be inappropriate to refer to that as anything related to evolution, since evolution denies intelligence. If intelligence is involved, then it should be referred to as intelligent design.

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The concept of evolution is simply gradual change over time. That's it. There's really nothing more to it.
People may try to use the biological process of hereditary change over time as an explanation for origins of life, and come up with mechanisms for it that do not involve God, but if God is acting on something and changing it in a way that is hereditary, IE changing their genetics, God is evolving the animal and its seed.
It boils down to you not liking the word because people with a godless world view use it, which is just silly. You shouldn't let unbelievers take ownership of words.

Jamdoc said:

The concept of evolution is simply gradual change over time. That's it

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Nope. Evolutionary theory specifically denies intelligence, purpose, or intent. That is what makes it what it is.

Jamdoc said:

People may try to use the biological process of hereditary change over time as an explanation for origins of life, and come up with mechanisms for it that do not involve God,

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Yes, this is evolutionary theory. No intelligence involved.

Jamdoc said:

but if God is acting on something and changing it in a way that is hereditary, IE changing their genetics, God is evolving the animal and its seed.

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Nope. God is making changes, yes. Evolving? No. In the same way you'd not say that a digital watch evolved from an analog watch. The designer made design changes which required intelligence and intent.

Jamdoc said:

It boils down to you not liking the word because people with a godless world view use it, which is just silly. You shouldn't let unbelievers take ownership of words.

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I do not like the confusion that comes with using words which transfer the credibility of intelligence to a theory which intentionally spurns intelligence. The unbelievers "take ownership" when you casually refer to evolutionary theory as something which can include intelligence. It is important to understand the distinction for the very reason that the evolutionary theorist try their hardest to subsume and imply intelligence behind their cold, dead theory.

This is why, when you back them into a corner, they will invariably say that evolutionary theory is like a program, except that it does not have a programmer. Deep down they crave meaning behind their existence, but they don't want the designer who gave them that meaning. They want the fruit, but not the tree, and that isn't fair to the creator.

John Helpher said:

Yeah, that's part of it, except I also made it clear that evolutionary theory specifically denies any intelligence, purpose, or intent. This means something like theistic evolution is a contradiction in terms, since theistic involvement equates to applied intelligence.

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This isn't actually true. God could hypothetically use a random process along with natural selection to construct life on earth.

Intelligent design isnt a broad term referring to anything made by an intelligent being. Intelligent design and it's movement applies to the idea that biological evolution is insufficient as a potential source for diversity of life. They essentially believe in metaphysical processes (or something beyond our understanding, they never really say), or even miracles, being needed for diversification above a genus level.

KomatiiteBIF said:

God could hypothetically use a random process along with natural selection to construct life on earth.

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Nah. Take, for example, a lottery ball machine. It's designed to produce random results. We would not say that the machine is random. We'd say it is designed to be random. I have already said that I do not think God used random processes (like trillions of tiny changes dumb-lucking their way into greater complexity) but I am not opposed to the idea that God designed trillions of tiny changes along the way.

But, even if he did use trillions of tiny changes along the way, that would not be evolution; it would be intelligent design. Evolutionary theory specifically denies intelligent behind the formation of life.

John Helpher said:

Nope. Evolutionary theory specifically denies intelligence, purpose, or intent. That is what makes it what it is.



Yes, this is evolutionary theory. No intelligence involved.



Nope. God is making changes, yes. Evolving? No. In the same way you'd not say that a digital watch evolved from an analog watch. The designer made design changes which required intelligence and intent.



I do not like the confusion that comes with using words which transfer the credibility of intelligence to a theory which intentionally spurns intelligence. The unbelievers "take ownership" when you casually refer to evolutionary theory as something which can include intelligence. It is important to understand the distinction for the very reason that the evolutionary theorist try their hardest to subsume and imply intelligence behind their cold, dead theory.

This is why, when you back them into a corner, they will invariably say that evolutionary theory is like a program, except that it does not have a programmer. Deep down they crave meaning behind their existence, but they don't want the designer who gave them that meaning. They want the fruit, but not the tree, and that isn't fair to the creator.

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You're still stumbling over the word and not using its actual definition, you're letting 1 worldview take ownership of a word that by itself means something other than what you think it means.

John Helpher said:

Nah. Take, for example, a lottery ball machine. It's designed to produce random results. We would not say that the machine is random. We'd say it is designed to be random. I have already said that I do not think God used random processes (like trillions of tiny changes dumb-lucking their way into greater complexity) but I am not opposed to the idea that God designed trillions of tiny changes along the way.

But, even if he did use trillions of tiny changes along the way, that would not be evolution; it would be intelligent design. Evolutionary theory specifically denies intelligent behind the formation of life.

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You're confusing terms. Intelligent design is a particular movement advocated by people who attempt to refute biological evolution. They advocate for things such as irreducible complexity as an example, which contradicts the theory of evolution.

Intelligent design - Wikipedia

Jamdoc said:

You're still stumbling over the word and not using its actual definition,

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Nah, I'm describing it as it really is, without all the fluffy confusion that Atheists and Skeptics have tricked you into accepting lest you be ridiculed as intolerant or unscientific. The theory of evolution expressly denies any kind of intelligence, intent, or purpose.

Intelligent design is the exact opposite. If you want to say God used trillions of tiny changes, fine, but that isn't evolution. It's intelligent design. Every time you use "evolution" in the context of intelligence, you actually encourage their delusion.

KomatiiteBIF said:

You're confusing terms. Intelligent design is a particularly movement advocated by people who attempt to refute biological evolution.

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Nope. A pocket watch is a result of intelligent design. You know why? Because intelligence was required to design it.

KomatiiteBIF said:

people who attempt to refute biological evolution.

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I can't speak for others, but from my own perspective, intelligent design is an explanation for how life came to be what it is. What I, as an intelligent design proponent, refute is the confusion that comes fron mixing a concept which snubs intelligence with a concept which promotes intelligence. "Theistic evolution" is a misnomer; it's like saying intelligent non-intelligence. Stop cowering in fear that you'll be ridiculed by skeptics and Atheists for calling creation what it is (i.e. intelligent design). Stop pandering to their arrogance by using their terminology. You may spare yourself some ridicule, but you come across as someone ashamed to say that we are the result of intelligence, purposefully designed with intent and meaning.

John Helpher said:

Nah, I'm describing it as it really is, without all the fluffy confusion that Atheists and Skeptics have tricked you into accepting lest you be ridiculed as intolerant or unscientific. The theory of evolution expressly denies any kind of intelligence, intent, or purpose.

Intelligent design is the exact opposite. If you want to say God used trillions of tiny changes, fine, but that isn't evolution. It's intelligent design. Every time you use "evolution" in the context of intelligence, you actually encourage their delusion.

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That's not the definition of evolution. Darwin didn't invent the word. Evolution as a word was borrowed for his theory, but evolution has always meant gradual change over time. Life isn't the only thing that evolves. The word evolution itself predates Darwin by hundreds of years.

Jamdoc said:

That's not the definition of evolution

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Sure it is. That's the whole point of the theory; there is no intelligence, meaning, or purpose behind our existence. We are the accumulation of trillions of random, dumb-luck accidents of time/space/matter. That is literally what the theory purports, though the pushers of the theory don't describe it that way. They invariably use language which implies ordered intelligence, but that's because they're cheaters. They want to say their existence is meaningful while denying any meaning behind their creation. It's irrational, and you're buying in to it. Wake up.

Jamdoc said:

evolution has always meant gradual change over time. Life isn't the only thing that evolves. The word evolution itself predates Darwin by hundreds of years.

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Yeah except the context of all this discussion, both your comments and mine, is that of evolutionary theory.

If you want to argue that the word evolution can be applied to other contexts as a concept referring to gradual change, that's a different issue.

John Helpher said:

Nope. A pocket watch is a result of intelligent design. You know why? Because intelligence was required to design it.



I can't speak for others, but from my own perspective, intelligent design is an explanation for how life came to be what it is. What I, as an intelligent design proponent, refute is the confusion that comes fron mixing a concept which snubs intelligence with a concept which promotes intelligence. "Theistic evolution" is a misnomer; it's like saying intelligent non-intelligence. Stop cowering in fear that you'll be ridiculed by skeptics and Atheists for calling creation what it is (i.e. intelligent design). Stop pandering to their arrogance by using their terminology. You may spare yourself some ridicule, but you come across as someone ashamed to say that we are the result of intelligence, purposefully designed with intent and meaning.

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Well I wish you the best then in claiming the words "intelligent design" from the intelligent design movement. It's a shame they defined the term first through websites, books, even court trials.

KomatiiteBIF said:

Well I wish you the best then in claiming the words "intelligent design" from the intelligent design movement. It's a shame they defined the term first through websites, books, even court trials.

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This is a weird point of view. I'm not claiming anything. I'm stating a fact. If intelligence is used to design something, then that thing which is made is a result of intelligent design.

John Helpher said:

Sure it is. That's the whole point of the theory; there is no intelligence, meaning, or purpose behind our existence. We are the accumulation of trillions of random, dumb-luck accidents of time/space/matter. That is literally what the theory purports, though the pushers of the theory don't describe it that way. They invariably use language which implies ordered intelligence, but that's because they're cheaters. They want to say their existence is meaningful while denying any meaning behind their creation. It's irrational, and you're buying in to it. Wake up.



Yeah except the context of all this discussion, both your comments and mine, is that of evolutionary theory.

If you want to argue that the word evolution can be applied to other contexts as a concept referring to gradual change, that's a different issue.

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My point in my posts has been that life evolves, life changes over time, and God is the ultimate source of that change.

Jamdoc said:

My point in my posts has been that life evolves, life changes over time, and God is the ultimate source of that change.

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That's intelligent design, not evolution.

John Helpher said:

That's intelligent design, not evolution.

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It's evolution because that's what the word means. gradual change over time. Intelligent design is for folks who believe life does not change at all it's all static God made it the exact way it is today 6000 years ago and it has never changed one bit. There are plenty of those around.

Jamdoc said:

It's evolution because that's what the word means.

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The word itself isn't the issue. It is the concept which the word is being applied to. The concept behind evolutionary theory is that there is no intelligence, which makes no sense.