Trusting apologists

John Helpher

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What does all your possessions mean? If you give them all away, you have no choice, but dirt. Logic :)

I've said several times now that the point of forsaking all is to promote sharing, but you're not interested in that so you don't see sharing as either a part of the equation or as a solution. You continue to believe you've found some kind of loop hole that makes you clever, but all you're really doing is bragging about how clever it is to equate sharing with dirt.

Drive down any major street, of any larger town, and count the number of times you have one church next to opposing another. They cannot both be right. But they can certainly both be wrong.

The point is that Jesus is right. If their behavior is consistent with what Jesus taught, then they are Christian. If their behavior is not consistent with what Jesus taught, then they are not Christian. But you don't see that because you're not interested in truth. You view the problematic behavior of professing Christians as a means of tearing down the teachings of Jesus. That is your agenda as a skeptic.
 
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cvanwey

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I've said several times now that the point of forsaking all is to promote sharing, but you're not interested in that so you don't see sharing as either a part of the equation or as a solution. You continue to believe you've found some kind of loop hole that makes you clever, but all you're really doing is bragging about how clever it is to equate sharing with dirt.

Please address the verses provided in the last response. He is referring to "those of you who do not give away everything cannot be my followers." So I now ask you, yet again. If you are a follower, and especially if you are considered rich, have you given away everything?

I'm all about 'sharing'. But in the provided verse(s), this is not what Jesus is referring to. He is telling you to give up 'everything' to follow Him, period. In these verses, He makes no reference to helping the less fortunate.

Again, the point you are blatantly avoiding here.... You pick and choose which verses you adhere to, and ignore the rest. Where-as I admit... You CANNOT follow them all, because they would conflict.


The point is that Jesus is right. If their behavior is consistent with what Jesus taught, then they are Christian. If their behavior is not consistent with what Jesus taught, then they are not Christian. But you don't see that because you're not interested in truth. You view the problematic behavior of professing Christians as a means of tearing down the teachings of Jesus. That is your agenda as a skeptic.

Haha. Again, the point is that all these factions think their beliefs are correct, and the others are less-than-correct. And yet, many directly conflict. Who is at the source in all this apparently? Jesus. Hence, Jesus is the author of confusion. Many of these churches follow in earnest. And many/most/all could be incorrect.

You continue to ignore my additional points:

1. Jesus was not speaking to one person regarding giving away everything. You seem to think He was. (i.e) The provided verses in Luke 14:25-33. This likely includes you....
2. God proclaims pronouncements for which I'm sure you ignore/omit/pass over. If you do not believe me, I can provide some more.
3. It would be a logical contradiction to try and follow all of Jesus's teaching. You have no choice but to pass-over some of them. Hence, are you really a follower of Jesus?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I heard a phrase a while back which seemed to so perfectly fit some of the discussions I've been involved in both online and in real life; impervious to reason. I think this is what Paul was referring to when he talked about people with a reprobate mind. You get the picture of a person with incredibly strong defensive posture as reason and logic bounce harmlessly off and fall away. It's frustrating for those looking on who want to find some kind of chink in the armor but alas, the armor is impervious; it simply cannot be penetrated.

Psychologists call this projection.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Okay, but that'd be like saying, "Let's assume that loving your neighbor and helping the poor are the one true religion".

No, you're wrong.

Not quite. Christianity is a set of values and principles. The old testament was like elementary school and the new testament is like graduation out into the big, wide world. There are some students who were more advanced than others so that even in the old testament they were practicing the values that Jesus taught.

Again, you're wrong.

Suppose I live my whole life like Jesus. I give away all of my possessions, wander the world and do good for others. But I don't believe in Christ. Then I'm not a Christian and I'm going to hell.

Conversely, consider the thief on the cross. What good works did he do in his life? Yet he believed in Christ in the end, and he is apparently in heaven.

I'm surprised that I have to explain this to a Christian on christianforums.com.

Trust is earned. If you want to know who is behaving as, or commenting as a Christian, then the rational thing would be to compare that person's behavior and comments to the teachings of Jesus. But, in order to compare a person's behavior to what Jesus taught, you'd need to know what Jesus taught, and that's where most people are fairly ignorant. They think they have a pretty good idea of what Christianity is (e.g. going to church, reading your bible, giving your tithe, and following a myriad of various religious rituals), but they rarely know what Jesus commanded his followers to do or not do.

Agreed!
 
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John Helpher

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Suppose I live my whole life like Jesus. I give away all of my possessions, wander the world and do good for others. But I don't believe in Christ. Then I'm not a Christian and I'm going to hell.

Can you supply any teaching from Jesus to support this position?
 
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cvanwey

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Can you supply any teaching from Jesus to support this position?

Sure. For starters, look no further than two verses below the one listed upon your avatar of John 3:16:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

If you help the needy your entire life, but do not think Christ is your savior, you are still condemned. Heck, you could do your "college best', and even be genuine. However, if you are an atheist/doubter/of alternate belief/etc, you have no chance; if the Bible is true.

So please, go ahead. Let's watch as you spin this verse. But it's okay, there's plenty more where that came from ;)
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Can you supply any teaching from Jesus to support this position?

Unfortunately, all I have are anonymous, non-eyewitness, secondhand at best sources written decades late in a different language than what Jesus spoke.

But if that's good enough for you as sources go, then you could look at John 14:6, where he says,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me."

How is that not consistent with what I said?
 
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John Helpher

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"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me."

How is that not consistent with what I said?

Try this logical pattern.

1. Jesus told us to love our neighbor.
3. A man who has never heard of Jesus loves his neighbor.
4. This man is following the way (of Jesus), the truth (of Jesus), and the life (of Jesus).

Can you see how, in your efforts to say that only people who consciously recognize the letters "J", "e", "s", and "u", placed into a pattern which spells out the name "Jesus", misses the point of what it means to follow the way of Jesus?

It's interesting how both professing Christians and Atheists tend to miss this. Christians will vehemently argue that if you don't say the name Jesus, if you don't go to church, or follow a prescribed set of religious rituals, if you don't pay your tithes or sing praise songs, or say a special, ritual prayer, then you cannot be consistent with the way of Jesus. Atheists, (perhaps subconsciously?) see the inherent flaw in this kind of formulaic thinking and scurry to support for that reason (i.e. the bad logic of my enemy is my friend). Either that, or you're just as deluded as those same professing Christians. I suppose most Atheists probably fall into a grey area between both, most likely without even realizing it. Something in you recognizes the logic is bad, but then you continue promoting it as though it must be correct because you yourself refuse to see anything better in the message of Jesus.
 
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John Helpher

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Sure. For starters, look no further than two verses below the one listed upon your avatar of John 3:16:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

If you help the needy your entire life, but do not think Christ is your savior, you are still condemned

This is an example of your bias shining through. Jesus told us to love our neighbor, and he gave a whole bunch of instructions on how to love our neighbor.

If a man, who has never heard of Jesus, loves his neighbor, then he is showing through his actions that he believes Jesus. His behavior demonstrates that he is already following the values of Jesus. We humans find it difficult to recognize this kind of sincerity because we like neat, tidy little boxes with which to compartmentalize each other. If you don't say the name of Jesus or recognize yourself as a follower of Jesus, then obviously you cannot be a follower of Jesus, right? But that's just you (and those Christians who taught you to think this way) being stubborn.

God is bigger than our little boxes. He can look deep down into the heart and see the truth of a person's character. That's what we are supposed to be learning to do; that's what wisdom and discernment means in practical terms; we learn to look deep into a person's motivations. But we tend to become easily distracted by outward labels. Instead of looking at the person's behavior and motives, we look at the labels. The situation is made even more silly when people like you boast and brag about your supposed "gotcha" arguments, when really all you're doing is demonstrating just how shallow your own perception is. You look on the outward appearance as though you've discovered some dramatic flaw, some penetrating discrepancy, but it's all just game playing with labels.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Try this logical pattern.

1. Jesus told us to love our neighbor.
3. A man who has never heard of Jesus loves his neighbor.
4. This man is following the way (of Jesus), the truth (of Jesus), and the life (of Jesus).

Is there no step 2 in this logical pattern? :scratch: Also, do you really expect me to accept you as the one and only representation of Christianity on earth and thereby reject the teachings of billions of other Christians? According to your logic, the only thing missionaries managed to spread is novel diseases to indigenous people... and I actually would agree if that is indeed your position. Lol.

Who knows. Maybe you are the one and only true Christian. But you are using a computer. Are you using a computer at a public library? Because otherwise you didn't sell all your worldly possessions, give the money to the poor, and then wander the world doing good works and preaching the gospel.

Can you see how, in your efforts to say that only people who consciously recognize the letters "J", "e", "s", and "u", placed into a pattern which spells out the name "Jesus", misses the point of what it means to follow the way of Jesus?

Take it up with the church, pal. I've been telling Christians that they're not Christlike for years now. But first, sell all that you have, give the money to the poor, and wander the world doing good works and preaching the gospel.

It's interesting how both professing Christians and Atheists tend to miss this. Christians will vehemently argue that if you don't say the name Jesus, if you don't go to church, or follow a prescribed set of religious rituals, if you don't pay your tithes or sing praise songs, or say a special, ritual prayer, then you cannot be consistent with the way of Jesus. Atheists, (perhaps subconsciously?) see the inherent flaw in this kind of formulaic thinking and scurry to support for that reason (i.e. the bad logic of my enemy is my friend). Either that, or you're just as deluded as those same professing Christians. I suppose most Atheists probably fall into a grey area between both, most likely without even realizing it. Something in you recognizes the logic is bad, but then you continue promoting it as though it must be correct because you yourself refuse to see anything better in the message of Jesus.

I don't promote that flawed reasoning. I merely accept it as representative of Christianity. It's not my problem if their reasoning is flawed. I've been saying for years now that Christians should give all of their possessions to the poor, but the Christians here refuse to see reason because they just want to live in sin.
 
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cvanwey

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This is an example of your bias shining through.

No bias here... Just providing verses which make axiomatic statements. More below... Please try not to 'navigate' [around] them this time around. Along with the previously provided verse, via John 3:18, have a look at the small sampling below:

30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

31 But these are written that you may believe, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved
.

Jesus told us to love our neighbor, and he gave a whole bunch of instructions on how to love our neighbor.

Sure He did. The most notable being Matthew 7:12. But without any of this also being accompanied by belief and repent, (as listed above), it's all in vain; according to God. Hence, your 'moral duties' mean nothing without following Jesus specifically. Again, according to Holy Scripture.

If a man, who has never heard of Jesus, loves his neighbor, then he is showing through his actions that he believes Jesus. His behavior demonstrates that he is already following the values of Jesus. We humans find it difficult to recognize this kind of sincerity because we like neat, tidy little boxes with which to compartmentalize each other. If you don't say the name of Jesus or recognize yourself as a follower of Jesus, then obviously you cannot be a follower of Jesus, right? But that's just you (and those Christians who taught you to think this way) being stubborn.

God is bigger than our little boxes. He can look deep down into the heart and see the truth of a person's character. That's what we are supposed to be learning to do; that's what wisdom and discernment means in practical terms; we learn to look deep into a person's motivations. But we tend to become easily distracted by outward labels. Instead of looking at the person's behavior and motives, we look at the labels. The situation is made even more silly when people like you boast and brag about your supposed "gotcha" arguments, when really all you're doing is demonstrating just how shallow your own perception is. You look on the outward appearance as though you've discovered some dramatic flaw, some penetrating discrepancy, but it's all just game playing with labels.

Wishful thinking. How do I know, for the handful of verses provided above, which tell us to the contrary.

Furthermore, following your logic, it would be wise not to tell anyone of Jesus. This way, there would be less recipients, like myself, to doubt Him. Just judge us upon our deeds alone.
 
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John Helpher

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do you really expect me to accept you as the one and only representation of Christianity on earth and thereby reject the teachings of billions of other Christians?

That you would ask this demonstrates that you're not discussing these issues to learn or reason together, but rather to accuse and ridicule. Of course there is nothing in my post to suggest this is what I want from you, but I think you say it because you recognize there is something different to the kind of Christianity I am expressing, not because I believe I am better than others, but rather because my representation is more accurate than what you've previously experienced. In other words, rather than addressing the argument, you're fallen back to accusing me, personally.

Take it up with the church, pal. I've been telling Christians that they're not Christlike for years now.

That's the problem with you lot; you're always going on about how wrong other people are and that's all you have. You don't have a solution or any way forward; it's all about the accusation.

I don't promote that flawed reasoning. I merely accept it as representative of Christianity.

Nah, you exploit this flawed reasoning. You see it as a weakness which you can latch on to. You're like a predator spotting the weakest in the heard. That's why, even now, you're still referring to it as a part of Christianity; you want to continue believing that Christianity is as shallow as you are because this presents a convenient excuse to continue the accusations. It's all about making yourself feel better.

I've been saying for years now that Christians should give all of their possessions to the poor, but the Christians here refuse to see reason because they just want to live in sin.


There is a time and place for criticism, even harsh criticism, but that is not what you're doing here.
I've seen this kind of thing before, from atheists and professing Christians who get a glimpse of Jesus' teachings, which they then use as a stick to beat everyone else with. It's true that there really are very few Christians in the world who obey Jesus, but once again you do not see that as a problem which needs to be corrected, but rather as a weakness to exploit. You do not encourage Christians to obey Jesus, but rather you look for whatever weakness you can find in their journey and manipulate it into some kind of accusation to tear them down.

My guess is that you were once a Christian who feels betrayed by what you perceived to be falseness in mainstream Christianity, so you've become a crusader against them, trying to expose the hypocrisy etc. Perhaps that's how you see yourself in your own mind, but to me you just look like a malcontent; someone who can see the problem in others but who also refuses to change.
 
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John Helpher

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Furthermore, following your logic, it would be wise not to tell anyone of Jesus.

Meh, this is just foolishness. I'll not continue responding to you unless you can try to be a little more productive with your posts.
 
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cvanwey

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Meh, this is just foolishness. I'll not continue responding to you unless you can try to be a little more productive with your posts.

You mean, where all your assertions and statements were challenged, and then demonstrated not to actually hold water; by me simply using Biblical verse?

Further, you still have yet to address my prior point(s); You know, the one @Nihilist Virus is also making... I would imagine God judges you as rich, (as you likely have a car, smart device(s), money in the bank, retirement, etc). And I doubt you have given away all your possessions, and preach the gospel, (like opposing Biblical verse states).

So as I stated many posts ago.... You cannot be a follower of Jesus. You MUST pick and choose some, and ignore others.

Admitting this little nugget alone, is half the battle. :)
 
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cvanwey

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My guess is that you were once a Christian who feels betrayed by what you perceived to be falseness in mainstream Christianity, so you've become a crusader against them, trying to expose the hypocrisy etc. Perhaps that's how you see yourself in your own mind, but to me you just look like a malcontent; someone who can see the problem in others but who also refuses to change.

I doubt this is the reason he is not a believer. I gather, it is more-so likely, at least in part, that the claims do not appear to match reality. Furthermore, there exists contradiction.

How about you instead start to address the points made, and stop accusing others of merely being 'disgruntled'?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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That you would ask this demonstrates that you're not discussing these issues to learn or reason together, but rather to accuse and ridicule. Of course there is nothing in my post to suggest this is what I want from you, but I think you say it because you recognize there is something different to the kind of Christianity I am expressing, not because I believe I am better than others, but rather because my representation is more accurate than what you've previously experienced. In other words, rather than addressing the argument, you're fallen back to accusing me, personally.



That's the problem with you lot; you're always going on about how wrong other people are and that's all you have. You don't have a solution or any way forward; it's all about the accusation.



Nah, you exploit this flawed reasoning. You see it as a weakness which you can latch on to. You're like a predator spotting the weakest in the heard. That's why, even now, you're still referring to it as a part of Christianity; you want to continue believing that Christianity is as shallow as you are because this presents a convenient excuse to continue the accusations. It's all about making yourself feel better.




There is a time and place for criticism, even harsh criticism, but that is not what you're doing here.
I've seen this kind of thing before, from atheists and professing Christians who get a glimpse of Jesus' teachings, which they then use as a stick to beat everyone else with. It's true that there really are very few Christians in the world who obey Jesus, but once again you do not see that as a problem which needs to be corrected, but rather as a weakness to exploit. You do not encourage Christians to obey Jesus, but rather you look for whatever weakness you can find in their journey and manipulate it into some kind of accusation to tear them down.

My guess is that you were once a Christian who feels betrayed by what you perceived to be falseness in mainstream Christianity, so you've become a crusader against them, trying to expose the hypocrisy etc. Perhaps that's how you see yourself in your own mind, but to me you just look like a malcontent; someone who can see the problem in others but who also refuses to change.

Seems like just a bunch of whining and moaning to draw attention away from the fact that you would rather own worldly goods than devote yourself completely to the teachings of Christ.
 
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